Reviewing Orange Hall Big Dealer Booths

@Allan Miller posted:

For a number of years now, I have been urging/advocating/advising/recommending--in the magazine, on this forum, and elsewhere--that the TCA-ED strongly consider making the York Meet a once-a-year/annual event, and have it held in October, just as it is now. I would recommend that it be a Thursday-Friday-Saturday event. There have been many changes to our hobby in recent years, in particular, related to changing demographics of the membership, manufacturer/supplier/dealer changes, and other factors, including the impact of the pandemic and most certainly the impact of the current inflation which is impacting virtually everything and is not projected to be turned around anytime soon.

It simply makes good sense to now, in light of all of those factors and more, to make the York Meet, which I truly do enjoy attending, an annual event with perhaps some thinking-outside-the-box extra incentives added. There will likely be no better time to make this change for 2023 and beyond than now.

I couldn't disagree more.  By this logic then all TCA meets, because this is what this really is, should be a one event per year.  Originally a TCA meet without manufactures and vendors the York meet grew to what it is, a victim of it's own success.  The manufacturers and vendors could leave and the meet would continue in some form.  While it may not be worth while for some companies to come out every meet with a large booth I suspect those who plan accordingly can make a decent profit for themselves if they willing to do the work.  This isn't saying some things could be done better or adjustments couldn't be made but once a year is not the answer.

I am also in the twice-a-year camp, opinion-wise.  I like knowing that, if I am forced to miss a meet (for illness, weddings, funerals, car trouble, etc.), that I only have to wait six months for the next York and not a whole year.  There is nothing stopping those who only want to go once a year from only going once a year.

Andy

I tend to agree with the twice a year. Yeah, it is selfish, but now that I have gone, it is nice to have it there. I could see the EDTCA making it once a year if logistically having 2 shows a year is too much (having been involved working on another annual event a lot smaller than that, I could see that decision being made,it requires a lot of people and logistics). There are a lot of reasons, but I think the York meet helps keep excitement around trains up, and also, if for example there is a bad snowstorm in October or something that keeps people away, there then is April to look forward too.

At this point the vendors are a crap shoot, given everything that has gone on in the industry I really wonder how important that is any more in terms of people going. I don't think a vendor is going to say "hmm, they have it twice a year, obnoxious of them, costs so much", I think they will say "we are only going to one of the shows" and people who care about the vendors going can make decisions based on that.

I think the days of big reveals at York or where vendors do major stuff is now in the past along with stuff being made that isn't mostly BTO, both are signs of what the companies are. Given that MTH is whatever it is , not going to have much if any of a presence (other than MTH parts, if Mike R is there, he definitely has presence *lol*), Lionel is prob going to be much the same, and Atlas will likely not be doing much if they show up other than a showcase like you can see in their catalog or whatever *shrug*.

https://ogrforum.com/...7#160786365058067727

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

I have talked to Nicholas Smith a bunch of times at the store about shows.  They won't be doing any shows in the future.  So you should not expect them at any shows anymore.

Plus we are losing an incredible resource at Nicholas Smith.  Joey is moving on at the end of May.  I will really miss all his incredible knowledge about everything trains (model and real).  It's a huge loss.  So, things are changing.

No loss not having NST, for me, they are 5 minutes down the road so I am typically ordering online and picking up in the store.

I more sad to hear the news about Joey, super knowledgeable and always a huge help. It's not going to be the same going in there without him. 

My birthday month is April, so I always attend the Spring meet as a "birthday celebration".  I think that is reason alone to keep two meets per year

Sad to hear OGR, Scenic Express and some others won't be there, so maybe I'll have to add the October meet as my un-birthday celebration.

Very happy that the show is still open to non-TCA members as I used to just attend the bandit meets, and got some great stuff there, but I have to be more selective now as I already have more than I can use.

Some of the vendors such as OGR have made it clear that setting up a booth, staffing it, including meals and hotels, isn't worth the expense from what they get from it.

Each vendor has to decide on their own whether they get enough out of it to put the time and expense into having a booth.  I would think at minimal, having a small booth with a small staff would be beneficial but I have no data to support that so I can't speak to what is the minimal amount of time and effort is needed to make it worthwhile. Clearly some vendors and manufacturers have decided to take some of that expense and use it at other events, not really a bad decision if you can spread you appearances out to reach more people a fewer times a year than not at all.

Regardless, I am definitely in the 2 meet category even if it's all members at one of the events. I get enough out of it both mentally and train purchase wise to keep going 2 times a year.  Hopefully at minimal the membership does as well.  Again if the vendors and manufactures only come in the fall, spring will still be a joy to go to.

I'm also in favor of twice a year for most of the reasons stated by others.  I can always choose to go only in October.

I'll miss Nicholas Smith, as they usually brought some stuff that was buried in their back room and sold it at blowout prices.

I'm a bit surprised that some of the vendors (and OGR) don't maintain at least a "meet & greet" presence.  While I understand that the expense might not translate directly to bottom line profits, if someone wants to attend the meet anyway (and I hope that a lot of them do), it's a tax-deductible way to do so.  When I had my own company, I tried to find a business reason to travel to places that I wanted to visit.

I like to think that MTH's presence contributed to their success - customers feel important if they can talk with the owner and managers, and MTH probably picked up some valuable feedback.

I only live less then an hour north of YORK, so for me it’s no big deal.  I’ll be there both days, Thursday & Friday.  

@Jim M Sr posted:

Shhhhh,…. DONT LET IT OUT.

While he won’t be there in April, For those of you who remember Vince’s Trains, and his seemingly endless tables of great locomotive buys, he has the “bug” again, and we can expect to see him in the Orange Hall again in October.

This is terrible news, Jim!!  I won’t be attending the October Meet!  Tell Vince I said he has to attend next April too!

@Traindiesel posted:

This is terrible news, Jim!!  I won’t be attending the October Meet!

What?!?!?!  Turn in your card.  LOL!

No Traindiesel in October???  

Unbelievable. You will be missed. But what a fantastic reason to load the cart next week.

@Traindiesel posted:

This is terrible news, Jim!!  I won’t be attending the October Meet!  Tell Vince I said he has to attend next April too!

😮😧😫😭😩NO TRAINDIESEL????  Might as well close the MEET!!!

@laz1957 posted:

😮😧😫😭😩NO TRAINDIESEL????  Might as well close the MEET!!!

We all need to smack him upside the head when we see him next week! 

-Greg

@Allan Miller posted:

For a number of years now, I have been urging/advocating/advising/recommending--in the magazine, on this forum, and elsewhere--that the TCA-ED strongly consider making the York Meet a once-a-year/annual event, and have it held in October, just as it is now. I would recommend that it be a Thursday-Friday-Saturday event. There have been many changes to our hobby in recent years, in particular, related to changing demographics of the membership, manufacturer/supplier/dealer changes, and other factors, including the impact of the pandemic and most certainly the impact of the current inflation which is impacting virtually everything and is not projected to be turned around anytime soon.

It simply makes good sense to now, in light of all of those factors and more, to make the York Meet, which I truly do enjoy attending, an annual event with perhaps some thinking-outside-the-box extra incentives added. There will likely be no better time to make this change for 2023 and beyond than now.

At one time in the 80's and 90's my friends and I attended 14 or 15 train shows a year. Many of the good shows disappeared as the dealers stopped attending. Richard Kughn's "Value Added" policies, may have helped the local hobby shops, but hurt the train shows.  At this point I'm down to the two York Meets a year and an occasional Allentown Show. Now most of the local hobby shops have disappeared. Since most of what I buy now-a-days is new production, on-line shopping works just fine for me but it's the socializing with 40+ years of friends that can't be accounted for.

I'm afraid if the manufacturers and big dealers stop attending the April York, it will die out. Personally, I would like to see the April show get an injection of life from these big players who should see it as the "trade show" that it is, entertaining their valued customers. But if they continue to abandon ship, I suspect April York will disappear.

As a side note, I guess opening the show up to the public wasn't what they wanted after all or didn't have the effect they expected. It's the TCA members who not only dole out the $1500 - $2000 for their locomotives, but also buy a lot of starter sets for children and grand children.

The ball is in their court.

"I'm afraid if the manufacturers and big dealers stop attending the April York, it will die out."

It might change, but it won't die out in my opinion. It could very likely revert back to its roots as a members-only event, with member-to-member trading--and I don't see anything wrong with that. Back when there were only 4 halls (red, white, blue and yellow), the event was "huge." Aspects of the meet change over time (does anyone here remember the Friday night auction??), but that doesn't mean the entire meet is going to die.

@BlueComet400 posted:

"I'm afraid if the manufacturers and big dealers stop attending the April York, it will die out."

It might change, but it won't die out in my opinion. It could very likely revert back to its roots as a members-only event, with member-to-member trading--and I don't see anything wrong with that.

The only caveat there is that back then the vast majority of folks in our segment of the hobby (and including S gauge) were primarily collectors. That all changed in the 90s and forward when a wealth of new products with new features dramatically changed the hobby by getting more people involved in actually operating their trains. Granted, they still are de facto "collectors," but I imagine a good majority of them are focused more on newer product rather than items from the prewar, postwar, and MPC eras. There are, of course, exceptions, but my guess would be that a meet appealing primarily to the earlier collector crowd--today--would be far less popular than it once was. And, truth be told, the ranks of those true collectors have been dramatically thinned in recent years simply because so many have passed. I actually see that almost daily because I receive notifications from Google every time an item containing the word "Lionel" appears in a media source. Virtually all such notifications over the past several years have been obituaries for train collectors and toy train enthusiasts who have passed. Sad, but all too true.

I'm glad you acknowledge the fact that "operators" are also "collectors." After all, before you can run/operate your trains, you must first acquire or "collect" them.

Even if EDTCA decides the size of the meet has to be reduced back to one hall, I believe they will continue to sponsor a spring and fall meet, just as other divisions and chapters do. I think it’s important to remember that while it is still very large and draws attendees from all over, York is not a national event. As for York being primarily  pre-war and/or post-war meet, I respectfully disagree. There is plenty of modern / command control inventory for sale on the secondary market, including at York.

@BlueComet400 posted:

I'm glad you acknowledge the fact that "operators" are also "collectors." After all, before you can run/operate your trains, you must first acquire or "collect" them.

Even if EDTCA decides the size of the meet has to be reduced back to one hall, I believe they will continue to sponsor a spring and fall meet, just as other divisions and chapters do. I think it’s important to remember that while it is still very large and draws attendees from all over, York is not a national event.

Depends upon how you define a "national event."No Meet run by a TCA Division is technically a "national event". They are certainly not national conventions, like those run by the TCA, LCCA and LOTS. However, if you define "national event" by the number of states represented by the members who attend, I would say that York Meets are "national events". Indeed, they could be viewed as "international events", as they draw some attendees from outside of the US.

Pat

I will be there. Been crazy busy trying to finish up for the show. Looking forward to seeing you all.

@BlueComet400 posted:

There is plenty of modern / command control inventory for sale on the secondary market, including at York.

I agree 100%.  I primarily buy modern production scale stuff and the vast majority of my York purchases over the years have been from the member halls.

I occasionally hear or read statements that the member halls are "mostly pre-war and post-war", and while these are the halls you don't want to miss if that is what you are looking for, there is a LOT of modern there as well.

Andy

@BlueComet400 posted:

As for York being primarily  pre-war and/or post-war meet, I respectfully disagree. There is plenty of modern / command control inventory for sale on the secondary market, including at York.

Given the fact that I'm close to 100% modern/command control, I have to agree.  I see tons of stuff I'd love to have, and quite a bit of stuff that I end up owning at York.

@Andy Hummell posted:

I occasionally hear or read statements that the member halls are "mostly pre-war and post-war", and while these are the halls you don't want to miss if that is what you are looking for, there is a LOT of modern there as well.

IMO both of these statements can be (and are) true.  There is a lot of modern but the member halls are mostly pre-war and post-war.

Maybe I'll make a count of the tables as I walk through the member halls and put an end to the argument.  I'll have 4 categories - Modern, Pre/Post War/Mixed and non-model train related (meaning railroadania, toys, coins, display cases etc).   Accessories will be counted from the era they are from.  Any vendor selling structures/trees they've made will count as modern.

It may help make sure I don't miss something that interests me as it will slow my pace.

I do walk all the halls at every York and my guess it folks will be slightly surprised at how much modern stuff is there.

-Greg

From TCA Newsletter (4/22/22)

Thanks Greg. This will be interesting.

Last time I was at York was when I was young and collecting trains for the first time. It was in  the very late 1980s or maybe 1990 or 1991. I am sure a lot as changed since then. My recollections of York were trains collectors selling old trains to other train collectors, and, of course, dealers in old trains selling trains to train collectors. I do not remember any corporate booths or manufacturers selling during this time although I could be wrong. If they were there, they did not have a strong presence.

Although I have absolutely no insight as the current status, problems, situations at York, I am involved with large scale events for my other hobbies as well as in my professional life.

MOST LARGE SCALE EVENTS-REGARDLESS OF TYPE OR PURPOSE-ARE STRUGGLING OR HAVE DIED.

Generally speaking, large scale events began going downhill in about 2015. From 2015 through the beginning of the Covid years, events of all nature began to become dramatically reduced in terms of size and participation. For many events, they were simply no longer needed at all or no longer needed in their former size or capacity that they once filled. Many folded even before Covid. The advent of Covid buried others that were existing on life support.

Now please note, I did not say ALL events. I said MANY. Other events chugged along and still exist and/or still struggle to exist. A select few have found a new path and experienced solid growth. Some events have continued to remain strong by default-meaning the smaller events in that industry or hobby have perished and  the bigger events no longer have as much competition. Some have just survived due to dumb luck, geographical location, large cash infusions, etc.

Events survive because of evolution and because of talented event organizers who have the knack of knowing where there is need and how to fill it successfully. Events organizers need to evolve themselves, or their events will never grow or continue to live. Sometimes the evolution is created, sometimes it is forced, sometimes it just happens on its own.

Maybe in the case of York it reverts back to train collectors doing business with other train collectors and this could create a snowball affect where collectors once again travel to York in huge quantities from all over the country or world. That is the York I remember in the late 1980s. I would come with a large group from Los Angeles and I remember the Harrisburg airport being overrun by train collectors from all over the world trying to carry large boxes onto airplanes as "carry on luggage". I have heard from some of the very few train collectors I currently know that they no longer go to York because "it is all new trains that you can buy online, not enough old stuff to make a long trip worthwhile". I don't know if that is true or not. I do know that some of the vintage car events I am involved that kept a "back to the basics" approach are still doing OK, have survived, and in many cases even grown.

I am sure that the York five years from now-or ten years from now-will be very different than it is today, but who knows what that will mean?

Anyway, just my 1 cent worth.......

To those who are going to York, Happy Hunting and enjoy  spending time with your hobby and friends.

Finished up the last of turntables going to York today. Box the m up tomorrow. Have a good night everyone.

Holy mackerel Al. I’d say your business is doing pretty good.

@CSX Al posted:

Finished up the last of turntables going to York today. Box the m up tomorrow. Have a good night everyone.

Where can we find you at York?

@rplst8 posted:

Where can we find you at York?

Al is usually in the Orange Hall

Thanks Chris,  rplst8, sorry I didn’t see your question, I didn’t see your question until today. I’m always along front wall in center of hall. Here’s my booth

@CSX Al posted:

Thanks Chris,  rplst8, sorry I didn’t see your question, I didn’t see your question until today. I’m always along front wall in center of hall. Here’s my booth

Al was so busy most of the time that I didn't even have a chance to stop and talk with him. Did manage to get a wave in though. Great to see that there is so much interest in his products because that's a good indication that more layouts are being built or modified.

Thank you Allan! It was incredibly busy for us. I am a little hoarse today from non stop talking, but I do enjoy seeing and meeting everyone who stop by the booth!

We sold out of product and took a ton of orders. I know the flood loader, even though I couldn’t finish the demo model before York is a hit. People wanted to pre-order it!