My first effort, radio controlled westside ATSF Mikado 3182. No track power, could run it on the floor.
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Ron,
About three years ago I sat through a two rail demonstration(at The March Meet) of battery powered locomotives. The factory rep showed two engines running on a single track about five tables(40') long. It was obvious I was the only three rail guy in the room of about twenty. During the question and answer period, I asked if using their system could I run two rail engines on my three rail layout. To answer, he took one engine off the track and ran it on the table cloth. That got everyone's attention. I think he said one 'charge' was good for two hours of running. He showed the female charging port and said it could be almost hidden in the cab or tender. Thinking it through, during a four hour operating session with multiple engines, it would be unusual for one engine to run two hours. Think of all the time spent wiring a layout. No more.
John in Lansing, ILL
That's what I was thinking John. I've gotten really tired of the wiring.
ron
Many won't admit it but battery power is the ultimate future. It would be best to promote battery power to new people entering the hobby as many are already so vested that they won't covert. It would phase itself in over a generation.
Fred, with batteries being improved almost monthly a scale size baggage car or reefer could be used for the batteries with charging port in a bunker hatch, clerestory roof or window. Park it on a siding and put the plug in. John in Lansing, ILL
When I was a wee little one, I started with battery powered toy trains. Then I was given a Marx O-27 set which opened the floodgates. I got to use REAL tools to fasten the track to plywood. In wiring it up, I learned that electricity dosen't use 1 wire, but needs a return path, hence a closed circuit. Learning the of a multi-meter to determine conductivity in track joints, determine if a a lamp was blown, or track down voltage loss was outright amazing, and I wasn't even double digits old! Of course, the next step was to add in an automatic crossing gate. Oh I loathed the 153C and was astonished to find how elegant it was to use the metal wheels and an insulated track section to act as a electrical switch! Oh, and the crossing gate didn't have a motor; it had a solenoid! Next was the dwarf signal, but that had two states - this introduced me to relays - a solenoid that controlled a electrical switch. As a preteen, I became a whiz at these analog circuits! Skip over many years, and now I'm using a Raspberry Pi (small hobbyist computer) to use digital solid state components to control relays on my layout.
To me, the joy of this hobby isn't solely about watching/commanding trains go round, but the learning and experiences gained in the electrical, carpentry and general DIY arenas.
No one would argue that battery power dosen't lower the bar of entry into having trains go round. But I think that it also lowers the returns this hobby has in electrical skills and knowledge development. I feel that there are many who have a romance looking back on their growth and this personal attachment weighs in when evaluating the pros and cons of battery powered locomotives.
I foresee my setup remaining conventional low voltage pure sine wave AC over three conductive rails.
I would be interested on the conversion and what type of board. I agree that battery technology has greatly improved in the last few years. As for wiring skills that would still be needed as buildings, turnouts etc. Would still need to have power.
suzukovich posted:As for wiring skills that would still be needed
And for installing the battery system in existing locomotives.
Rusty
Track switches could be powered by compressed air. Does anyone on this forum have air powered track switches? That leaves one fixed voltage for operating the lights and one for the accessories. John in Lansing, ILL
RCS America has usually been in Orange hall at York. I bought one of their systems with Phoenix Sound to install in an LGB Mogul. It was a great learning experience and turned out very well. Wife and I took a bunch of well-tarnished brass G track out to the garden area, laid out a loop with minimal attempts to level/align it, put the engine on the track.........No Problem, Joe!
I took the engine to our shop (LHS) and gave the same demo.....put the engine/tender on the store carpet, and away she chugged, whistled, chimed. Of course none of the RC guys/customers were that impressed....it IS their domain. But the train guys/customers were quite amazed.
The RCS America group had several O scale engines demonstrating the feasibility of battery power.
If you have a full-line hobby shop (RC planes, cars, drones, boats, etc.) spend some time talking and seeing what battery advances have done to that branch of hobbies. And motor miniaturization, too.
It's probably only a matter of time before there'll be a Battery Power category in the controls portion of this forum. I expect a major producer (e.g., Bachmann) will offer this O scale (O2R, On30)....or even HO!!...paradigm busting technology to test the market.
Yo, Jack!!!,,,,, Millie and Daisy are counting on you!
See you at York.
There are initial expenses to absorb when going to battery power and of course, there is locomotive wiring. However, the power densities available in lithium batteries is phenomenal. One must have a quality charger which is analogous to buying a quality transformer and a high quality transmitter which is analogous to buying a DCC or Tmcc system and the receivers and sound boards are about the same expense as buying ERR tmcc units.
I've competed nationally with RC cars for years so I am no stranger to all of this. We now fly very large rc planes with electric power.
I'll detail the equipment used as I go along. Since my railroad is around the wall I use manual switches. Since I have power wiring along the rails and below the board I can continue to power building lights and signals as before.
The biggest expense and time consumer is converting all my 3 rail scale locomotives to scale profile wheels.
Ron H,
You've done a great job and many thanks for the video and battery ideas. For me, there are still issues to resolve before battery power makes sense.
1) I need locos that put on a show with smoke and sound. I also would need battery conversion expertise which, sad to say, I don't have now.
2) I still need to wire switches, structures and signals. Track wiring, for me much easier than these I have just mentioned. One or two drops per electrical circuit and I'm done. Switches are another story.
3) Charging time and the required outlets and facilities are an issue. I would never leave the layout on to charge anything.
Scrappy
Ron,
Awesome as always. I still check on your progress from time to time. Haven't been on the board much or playing with trains since beginning of year-focusing on career stuff so I have time in the future to build a RR.
We get incredible run times out of our RC fleet of planes,vehicles,drones and boats....trains would be easy to power and charge. I have a lithium jumper pack(uses 18650 cells) that will jump start a V8 engine...and there are safer technologies ( LiFePO4) on the market as we speak...battery power..tis the future
Yep. Then those with the center rail will be those who like the way 3-rail track looks.
I predict - by 2020 MTH will offer a battery/RC set.
When the price drops to, say, double what it is now for an RC model car, my favorite 2-rail locomotives will be converted. No more dirty track issues!
"Fred, with batteries being improved almost monthly a scale size baggage car or reefer could be used for the batteries with charging port in a bunker hatch, clerestory roof or window. Park it on a siding and put the plug in. John in Lansing, ILL"
Better yet, insulate the trucks so you can flip a switch and you could have a charging track.
to those who are doing Battery power, have you figured out how to address a layout wide "kill switch"?
enginEErjon posted:
to those who are doing Battery power, have you figured out how to address a layout wide "kill switch"?
Blame it on age, blame it on lack of sleep, blame it on.....
I'm having trouble understanding the scenario under which this becomes a necessity.
I've never encountered this situation with my O3R basement-stuffing layout. I'm not sure why it's a BP issue.
I'm not even sure that a 'kill switch' is on the menu for several of the traditional BP/RC items.....airplanes, drones, heli's, boats. 
'Return-to-home', sure, but a sudden power termination?
Emergency Braking considerations are rather common on some brands of DC power packs having 'momentum' and other speed control variants. I believe even DCC has provision for an emergency braking. An RC throttle control could do the same, but whether that's using track power or battery power, is it not the same as what you seek?
Could you provide an example, perhaps??? Value added??
Thanks!
I'm sure there was a time when no one could imagine engines being available already equipped with a DCC board. Many thought we'd never see 2 rail wheel and kadee conversions being offered by Lionel, although they haven't done engines yet. I'm sure there was a time when no one could imagine 3/2 convertible engines from MTH. Onboard battery power isn't an if. It's when.
Battery power is intriguing. If there were an out-of-the-box locomotive available I'd probably purchase one to experiment with, but I don't think I'm going to invest the money, time and effort to convert my locomotives.
I view battery power as just another option, not something that's going to replace other forms of train control in my lifetime.
Rusty
dkdkrd posted:enginEErjon posted:
to those who are doing Battery power, have you figured out how to address a layout wide "kill switch"?
Blame it on age, blame it on lack of sleep, blame it on.....
I'm having trouble understanding the scenario under which this becomes a necessity.
Could you provide an example, perhaps??? Value added??
Thanks!
I can definitely try. And maybe my question is purely grounded in my personal situation.
Can I start by saying that laying out track on the floor or the back yard and being able to quickly run trains without having to do any wiring is quite the appeal.
On to the background for my previous question:
The layout that I use most (the one that my brother and I built in my Fathers house) has all of the transformers tied to a single switch. Ever since the layout was finished, this single switch has been a very helpful "kill switch" in the event of the unexpected. It has allowed a quick way to kill the power to all trains at once.
Some of those unexpected situations were an engine derailment that left the mainline blocked with a string of passenger cars. Another one was a more recent event when a nephew was running trains from his smartphone and I couldn't get back to the same engine on my handheld fast enough to prevent a collision caused by a switch. In both of these cases, flipping the switch killed power to all trains (usually 3) that were under motion.
With BPRC, each train has it's own power source, and while a small layout with a single engine may not need such a feature, but having a single kill switch has sure been nice to stop multiple engines much faster than doing them individually.
My situation may be unique in that we tend to allow the younger kids to run trains with us, so its likely that not all would need a kill switch but I was more curious if there was anything clever that already existed that would work.
I know that drones, planes, and other RC devices don't have kill switches, but I also know that crashing and rebuilding those items has always been part of the fun (at least for me). But the thought of chasing a run-away locomotive that has lost communication to its remote, sure brings some apprehension (at least for now).
(
Good reason to not accept RC. Also, it allows you to keep that gorgeous track, all those wires, and track cleaning equipment.
I have just test loops - and occasionally need to stop things now. I will not let that prevent an RC locomotive - but if it were an issue for a large segment of the hobby, an "all stop" command would be a trivial addition to what is now an extensive command protocol.
rattler21 posted:Track switches could be powered by compressed air. Does anyone on this forum have air powered track switches? That leaves one fixed voltage for operating the lights and one for the accessories. John in Lansing, ILL
There used to be a company called Del-Air that made a system that used air. I don't think they are around anymore. I would love air powered switches.
The one thing I've always hated about track power is that when something goes wrong, the entire layout may go into all stop mode. It can be quite annoying. I've seen it happen from little things like someone with a camera placing that camera on the tracks.
With RC battery power each engineer will prototypically be on his own with no artificial limits except for turnouts out of alignment.
Glad to see this is taking hold
It's been over 3 years since I started my BPRC conversions.
Most of mine use 9.6 NiMh 2000Mah battery packs, with a few using 11.1 LiPo 2200Mah packs, no issues so far.
I haven't run them much since April, my daughter/family moved home from Sicily. They have since moved into their new home so now I have the chance to fire them back up.
Some of them haven't been run in 6 months and so far they've all started up without having to recharge the batteries. Haven't cleaned the track in 6 months either 
, but dust still accumulates on the rails which can effect traction so I may attempt a good cleaning soon.
I still have plans for an around the entire upstairs layout, so all may be coming down shortly, but this time instead of yanking out the middle rail I'll start fresh with new 2-rail track and homemade turnouts (already have 6 built for the mainline).
I have seen no need for a "kill switch", the on/off switch on the engine has worked for me whenever I find the need (which has been rare to non-existent). The few derails I've had haven't been any problem, typically I'm standing right near the engine and simply put it back on the track (usually caused by not throwing a turnout).
Instead of powering the track to recharge the batteries I'd like to see developed an inductive charging system, like is used on a WaterPik. They make coils for this purpose, just don't know how they would work 1/2" or so from each other.
Great job Ron H!!!
It seems like lionel's bluetooth positions itself well for this kind of thing...
I have my Scalecraft NYC Hudson, beautifully detailed, running on three lithium ion 18650 cells, scavenged from a laptop battery pack (free) and charged by a one dollar board, a TP4056 form ebay, and a six dollar bluetooth speaker for sound. the most expensive part, a Bluerail board, and it all fits in the tender nicely, my daughter played with it on the kitchen bench for ages (no track). I just didnt feel like two railing her cTr...Choose the Right )
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feet posted:rattler21 posted:Track switches could be powered by compressed air. Does anyone on this forum have air powered track switches? That leaves one fixed voltage for operating the lights and one for the accessories. John in Lansing, ILL
There used to be a company called Del-Air that made a system that used air. I don't think they are around anymore. I would love air powered switches.
I was a user of the Del-Air system when I was in HO scale. They were excellent. I still have it all stored in my "to good to throw away box" I have given some thought to putting it back into use on my O scale, but nobody is supporting the system and that could leave me hanging so I will stay with my hand throws. They are much less involved and they work just fine.
Bob
Years ago myself and a friend from Martin Marietta who now has his own company Ferncreek Electronics , he constructed and perfected an interface between the battery packs you all have mentioned and the TMCC system , only wire to track is from the TMCC for the radio signal. It was extensively tested for a potential for outdoor trains, at the time I had a client for a huge outdoor layout and we liked the 3 rail flanges for outdoor use to keep the trains on the track but the customer wanted only 2 rails so we devised this system . No need to do anything but have this circuit board to make it work , Lionel said it could not be done 8 yrs ago ,we sent them a video but heard nary a word . At that time we ran a TMCC loco on a loop for about 2.5 hrs continuous ,batteries are much better today by far. Anybody that has 3 rail TMCC and wants to go the battery route , this would make it easy and you don't have to buy controls and such this was very simple to make work . The technology is in the board . Tom was very careful to not cross any lines or infringe on copyrights in case we decided to mass produce the board . If anyone has interest you can reach Tom at tom@fcelectro.com for more details ,he is very cool.
He is a very smart guy , he works on motion stabilizers and software for keeping cameras steady in action filming for the movie industry . When I had a shop building model railroads for 14 yrs we were neighbors ,his shop was next to mine , he did many many complex wiring applications for train layouts for me on custom layouts and things along those lines .
Bernie
The crossing over of power supplied makes more sense if you are active in RC already.
I dont ever want to have to wait for a battery to charge. I did RC too, there was waiting involved.; battery charging....more like battery management, is a maintenance chore same as track cleaning.
I dont ever want to have to wait for a battery to charge...my partner never charged the drills....
I dont ever want to have to wait for a battery to charge....Dead batteries Even.before common rechargeables, dead batteries sucked then too... I don't want to wait on a battery.
I wouldn't be opposed to a couple batt. ops, in the operation, but not as main source, same as I keep a drill with a cord on it to back up the cordless drills....which by the way all need batteries again. This will be the third set for the Dewalt.
As a way to battle track conductivity outside batteries can't beat. That has to be the #1 issue for outdoor modeling so the application fits perfect.
But I don't need it indoors. 2 wires per track, 3per turnout, 1 extra for tmcc.. Minus the tmcc, I did this pre school, so seriously..how is it complicated?
Maybe chasing some tmcc issues can be complicated? That is luck of the draw though. I'd have to think the tmcc would like the smooth batt. dc most of the time. As long as there is no need for -3 -5v or -12v on the boards, like some manufactures need I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work. Some strange capacitance issue?
Old track? Nice new tubular O oval about $35- $50 from Menards.
Where I'd like one battery op. loco, is on a recovery switcher, just for minor derailment and yard work, helper service on a grade.
When the "inevitable" "Y-U -batteries 2K" hits I'll be adding rail shoes and bridge rectifier and some filtering and those batteries will provide a capacitors duty.
Indusrtial mini pneumatic cylinders try Bimba and Mac with low volt electric solinoid and/or manual valving. Not "easier", but strong, slow, soft movement and fine control, and snap action both are there with pneumatics. It's pressure&flow both having adjustability make it nice to deal with. Tweaking is easy, but needed often.....I still just look at slower gear motors and newer rc servo motors if Tortoise wasn't getting it done for some reason.
The www.cherelvalleyrailroad.com is 98% controlled switches using Del Air and have found only 1 time a bad air toggle. If you might need something I have some extra parts. There is a link on my web site.
Gary G
l
Bernie,
Thanks for mentioning your friend Tom. I e mailed him and said I would purchase 10 of them. Hope he still does them.
Also, anyone know of cheap DCC sound systems?
Ron H
From time to time on topics like this....technology putting it's foot in the doorway...I like to refer to another collection hobby.....Predictive quotes that become....how shall we say?.....embarrassing?...
“Remote shopping, while entirely feasible, will flop.” -Time magazine, 1968
“I predict the internet will soon go spectacularly super nova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.” -Robert Metcalfe, inventor of Ethernet, in InfoWorld magazine, December 1995
“The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty---a fad.” -The president of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company, 1903
“The ‘telephone’ has too many serious shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.” -William Orton, president of Western Union, in 1876, when Alexander Graham Bell tried to sell the company his invention.
“Fooling around with AC power is just a waste of time. Nobody will ever use it, ever.” -Thomas Edison, 1889. The light bulb inventor insisted his own direct current (DC) system was superior to competitor George Westinghouse's AC power, and took every opportunity to discredit alternating current.
“Y2K is a crisis without precedent in human history.” -Byte magazine editor Edmund DeJesus, 1998
“Next Christmas the iPod will be dead, finished, gone, kaput.” -Alan Sugar, 2005
“Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.” -Popular Mechanics, 1949
“Using Twitter for literate communication is about as likely as firing up a CB radio and hearing some guy recite The Iliad.” -Sci-fi writer Bruce Sterling in The New York Times, 2007
“There is no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance.” -Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, 2007
Like I said earlier, working in a candy store (LHS) and seeing the growth/incorporation of otherwise mundane technology....batteries..., and micro-motors using rare-earth or brushless technologies tends to give a different perspective on what the future of trains running on powered 3-rail track might morph into has been a late-term epiphany.
And, at 72+ years with stiff joints, aching muscles, and a bald, vulnerable head, spending a weekend under a layout doing some track wiring.....only to find 3 days later that I had tapped into the wrong buss wire resulting in things not working properly!!!!!(
)...I am ALWAYS receptive to considering something more along the K.I.S.S. Principle. I mean, I once gloated over the 'advantage' of 3-rail over 2-rail for dealing with conflicting polarities within reverse-loops, wyes, etc.. How short-sighted....a.k.a., dumb....is that?
Battery power......probably not a panacea. But it's going to be fun seeing it perhaps cause a few tremors in the model railroading hobby. You know....something besides a coin-operated pacemaker to keep the heart palpitating.
Semi-annual ho-hum catalogs/content don't cut it, lately.
Yes thanks Bernie I have also sent an e-mail to Tom, I assume that the board could also be used to power TMCC from the rails, two rails that is, on DC. I seem to remember Lionel did S scale TMCC on DC ? cTr...( Choose the Right )
Stephen Bloy posted:Yes thanks Bernie I have also sent an e-mail to Tom, I assume that the board could also be used to power TMCC from the rails, two rails that is, on DC. I seem to remember Lionel did S scale TMCC on DC ? cTr...( Choose the Right )
Unfortunately Tom's system is not going to work for me as I want everything inside a tender and there is not enough room for the TMCC and his boards and a battery. Will sell the ERR units.
dkdkrd posted:From time to time on topics like this....technology putting it's foot in the doorway...I like to refer to another collection hobby.....Predictive quotes that become....how shall we say?.....embarrassing?...
“Using Twitter for literate communication is about as likely as firing up a CB radio and hearing some guy recite The Iliad.” -Sci-fi writer Bruce Sterling in The New York Times, 2007
Well, that one turned out to be correct.
Ron My thinking was that if it couldn't be installed in the tender, at least I could get some of my sunset steamers running, one unit installed behind a loco in cars with removable roofs, so the devise can be swapped from car to car for verity, would be a start. No stripping out electronics, no two rail conversions for the moment. I could also install some of these points, shown in the S scale part of the forum, closed frog, I remember an article in MR, still we will see. cTr... ( Choose the Right ) 
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dkdkrd posted:From time to time on topics like this....technology putting it's foot in the doorway...I like to refer to another collection hobby.....Predictive quotes that become....how shall we say?.....embarrassing?...
“Remote shopping, while entirely feasible, will flop.” -Time magazine, 1968
“I predict the internet will soon go spectacularly super nova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse.” -Robert Metcalfe, inventor of Ethernet, in InfoWorld magazine, December 1995
“The horse is here to stay, but the automobile is only a novelty---a fad.” -The president of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Company, 1903
“The ‘telephone’ has too many serious shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.” -William Orton, president of Western Union, in 1876, when Alexander Graham Bell tried to sell the company his invention.
“Fooling around with AC power is just a waste of time. Nobody will ever use it, ever.” -Thomas Edison, 1889. The light bulb inventor insisted his own direct current (DC) system was superior to competitor George Westinghouse's AC power, and took every opportunity to discredit alternating current.
“Y2K is a crisis without precedent in human history.” -Byte magazine editor Edmund DeJesus, 1998
“Next Christmas the iPod will be dead, finished, gone, kaput.” -Alan Sugar, 2005
“Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.” -Popular Mechanics, 1949
“Using Twitter for literate communication is about as likely as firing up a CB radio and hearing some guy recite The Iliad.” -Sci-fi writer Bruce Sterling in The New York Times, 2007
“There is no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance.” -Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, 2007
Some notable "next big thing" flops that come to mind:
- RCA Video Discs
- Disposable Rental DVD's
- Quadraphonic Home Stereo
- 3D Television
Rusty
