After years of losing power too quickly and unreliable service I convinced myself to by a corded drill. Always strong and responsive with no time limit to my use. I never have to "plan ahead" and wonder if it will be ready to use and for how long. Is this analogy valid? It does make me think....
I see pros and cons to this system. It's not for everyone but I think it will have some value in niche markets and applications.
Battery and Motor technology has come a long way in recent years. I can remember in our shop the only way to take tires off of our trucks & tractors was with air impact wrenches. The thought of a cordless impact wrench was a just a dream. Now today, the air impact tools rarely get used and the cordless impacts get used everyday.
I do agree, I'm not a fan of batteries dying while operating my layout and having to charge batteries in trains. Not to mention I really hated replacing batteries in my Lionel & MTH engines and was very happy when battery replacements (Super Capacitors) were introduced as an alternative. So in one way, this system is a step backward in this regard.
When I think about everything on my layout that needs power to operate, the track wiring becomes a small piece of the puzzle in the grand scheme of things. Accessories, track side operations, multiple buildings, & switches still need wiring.
Another concern is cheap batteries and cheap chargers. I've personally seen quality lithium laptop batteries self destruct and do considerable damage to the laptop and furniture it was on while charging. I would never charge these batteries unattended and even then, rechargeable lithium batteries can be dangerous while in use (Samsung Galaxy Note 7). My dad's cell phone burned a hole in his jeans because of a battery failure.
I do like the idea of portable indoor and outdoor layouts that don't need any wiring. This would be so simple to set and tear down. Not mention you can run in environments where an outlet is not readily available.
For me, I like my smoke units and full feature sound coming from the loco. The idea of waiting for batteries to charge, wondering how much charge is left or if a battery is still healthy kind of takes the fun out running my trains. And as I said earlier, maintaining and replacing batteries was something I was happy to get away from.
But just because this system doesn't suite me doesn't mean it should just go away. I'd still like to see this technology receive further development. It may fit the bill for others and how they like to operate trains!
Of course it won't be for everyone. O Scale isn't either.
But all you have to do is look at kid's toys - cars and trucks that not only have speed control but also proportional steering, and note that you get motor, servos, RC equipment, and maybe the first set of batteries for under $40. Not to mention the model itself. Of course they do have economies of scale.
That tells me that this little niche of the O Scale hobby could easily take off now, with current technology. I expect it within two years.
bob2 posted:Of course it won't be for everyone. O Scale isn't either.
But all you have to do is look at kid's toys - cars and trucks that not only have speed control but also proportional steering, and note that you get motor, servos, RC equipment, and maybe the first set of batteries for under $40. Not to mention the model itself. Of course they do have economies of scale.
That tells me that this little niche of the O Scale hobby could easily take off now, with current technology. I expect it within two years.
Also, that RC car has a lightweight, plastic body that with little to no free standing detail over a generic chassis with oversize tires that bears little resemblance to the real thing and isn't expected to pull anything.
RC cars are expected to run fast and bounce off of things. Kids (or their parents) don't buy these things to simulate a trip to the grocery store.
Rusty
I operate the Carbondale by myself and I don't need more than 2.5 to 3 hours runtime as I basically interchange 2 Santa Fe passenger trains with 2 NYC passenger trains. So 4 passenger trains making maybe 4 loops and then broken down and made up with a change of locomotives. So the locos need to come from the ready track make 3 or 4 loops and then back to the barn. One freight comes in with replenishments, coal oil, fuel and some basics for the locomotive yards. The hardest working locomotive is the switcher. Occasionally a cab forward rolls in with an emergency refrigerated train to be iced, broken up and sent via the ATSF to Chicago and the NYC to the east coast.
Why the SP cab forward you ask? Because I have one and love it.
As one can see an operating session doesn't require a lot of run time for the locos. About 2 hours of playing is all I can mentally handle and then I'm on to something else. Rc will work great for my needs.
A big advantage is I can run a locomotive on 3 rail or 2 rail anywhere in the US on any club's layout should the occasion arise.
a problem I see with battery is that if the train or engine derails a battery powered engine will not stop running. with track power if the train or engine derails it stops because of the short circuit that almost always results. this is like a built in E-stop. with battery powered engines it will just keep running after a derailment which could result in a disaster.
I still dont see how I can fit a sound decoder, speaker and battery in my 44 tonner.
Michael Hokkanen posted:After years of losing power too quickly and unreliable service I convinced myself to by a corded drill. Always strong and responsive with no time limit to my use. I never have to "plan ahead" and wonder if it will be ready to use and for how long.
Is this analogy valid?
I think your analogy is VERY valid. I feel the same way about rechargeable drills and such. I don't usually have several hours to charge one before I use it and I've yet to see one that has as good torque as a corded one. I have three cordless drill that I have never used since I bought a corded one which works way better than any of them, and cost less than half the price.
As for trains, sure, the tracks are the Achilles heel in model railroading. But at least when I flip the switch, the locomotives will run until I flip off that same switch, no matter how long that might be.
Here is the ATSF starting a fairly heavy train. Just the tiniest bit of wheel slip as I laid into the throttle too hard once it stated moving.. I judge I can add four more heavyweights or 10 or 12 freight cars to this train. A little wheel slip starting a heavier train would be cool. She is pulling 6 GGD heavyweights and 10 freight cars of which 4 are brass antiques. When I bought this brass Mikado years ago I updated it with a good size new Pittman motor. It is geared really low and tops out at maybe 45 scale mph.
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p51 posted:Michael Hokkanen posted:After years of losing power too quickly and unreliable service I convinced myself to by a corded drill. Always strong and responsive with no time limit to my use. I never have to "plan ahead" and wonder if it will be ready to use and for how long.
Is this analogy valid?
I think your analogy is VERY valid. I feel the same way about rechargeable drills and such. I don't usually have several hours to charge one before I use it and I've yet to see one that has as good torque as a corded one. I have three cordless drill that I have never used since I bought a corded one which works way better than any of them, and cost less than half the price.
As for trains, sure, the tracks are the Achilles heel in model railroading. But at least when I flip the switch, the locomotives will run until I flip off that same switch, no matter how long that might be.
I use Milwaukee lithium battery drill drivers and never have had an issue. The batteries stay charged for months of non use and since I have a couple, I've always got a battery well charged. If I exhaust one, there's always one in the charger. The Milwaukee drivers, and other tools of the same type use the same batteries. They build houses with these things and they don't lose a minute with them.
I don't like filling my car up with gasoline. It would be far easier if it were electric and I had a very long extension cord.
I find the cordless fan handy
I am old enough to remember when all we had was plug it in the wall power tools. I find the Makita vastly superior - was using it this afternoon to put clamps on my pushrod tubes. Really convenient.
I realize that model cars are not trains, and that a $30 system will not happen. However, a $100 setup is not beyond the imagination. Just wait.
Bob My hudson definitely cost less than $100 to set up, I do already have a smart device. The batteries can handle the power loads we use easily. I still use track power, however I do plan to have maybe four power packs, that can be exchanged in and out of some of my loco's, it works great for older outside 3 rail models, I can just run them dead rail. cTr.... (Choose the Right )
What about small to medium size diesels, is there room under the shell for the sounds and the battery packs ?
clem k posted:What about small to medium size diesels, is there room under the shell for the sounds and the battery packs ?
Yes Clem. Very small gear available. Hobbyking has really small high powered batteries.
If the guys in HO can run, batteries and sound, so can we!! You can use a single cell Lipo or Lithium ion, and a buck up converter, or voltage converter, for small situations. I experimented with this in an Atlas F9 cTr.... ( Choose the Right )
I have a Dewalt cordless driver/drill which is very good for most of my casual use (with extra battery in the charger). On the other hand, I won't give up my heavy-duty corded Milwaukee Sawzall, because it delivers all the power I want for as long as I want! The hassle of an extension cord is a relatively small price to pay for this advantage.
My biggest concern would be derailments caused by inattentive engineers running through an open turnout (or worse still into an open lift out section) . Having a highly detailed/painted brass locomotive running on its side is not a pleasant thought. A friend who runs battery RC did have a locomotive hit the floor.
A major plus for dead rail is that protype signaling becomes far easier to wire. (The same signaling advantage exists with 3 rail, but at the expense of appearance) .
Quite a few positives for dead rail, but several negatives to think about include
- Cost factors due to scaleability (eg battery gear in each A-B-A unit)
- Available space in small locomotives (tank locomotives, GE 44 toners)
- Charge management/logistics across a large roster of locomotives before an operating session
- Safe recharging
- And operational issue #1 - wrecks
Those with good running "wired" railroads may want to consider adding a battery powered locomotive just to learn about new stuff. While I'm personally too invested in 2 rail ( and too old) to consider dead rail, it will be interesting to follow its impact on the hobby. If it can attract some new adherents to O scale it all to the good.
B Smith posted:I have a Dewalt cordless driver/drill which is very good for most of my casual use (with extra battery in the charger). On the other hand, I won't give up my heavy-duty corded Milwaukee Sawzall, because it delivers all the power I want for as long as I want! The hassle of an extension cord is a relatively small price to pay for this advantage.
I bought the biggest sized Milwaukee Sawzall and found it pretty much ok for 4 inch logs, etc. But the battery did need to be changed.
Guys, enough about power tools.
Ron
Most of the comments/problems I've seen can be applied/compared to any of the current systems used to run trains. No matter what system you use it's difficult getting them inside a small engine.
The biggest obstacle I see is that not one manufacturer offers a BPRC O-scale engine at present. I would be surprised if Bachmann doesn't offer something soon. Presently the individual has to buy and wire up their system of choice, or pay someone to do it.
I use Bluerail trains and Deltang boards and have had mainly solid performance with them. The Bluerail board is only 2amps (Deltang can be 3 or 6amps) and does "brown out" once in a while, I find I have to actually control how I move the throttle so the engine doesn't stall at startup when pulling a heavy train. A larger amp board will fix that.
Going on 3 years now with zero battery problems. NiMh and LiPo batteries don't run down like Nicads do and charging them inside my 14 BPRC O-scale engines has not posed a problem. I also have a Bachmann G-scale 4-6-0 with the Bluerail board install and works fine. I only have 6 engines with DCS or TMCC installed and plan on converting them soon.
A 2000Mah battery normally takes 2 hours to charge with a 1amp charger. If you want faster charge times, go with a smaller battery or swap batteries out. I've got some 1/16 RC tanks that use 2000-3000Mah LiPo batteries and the charging unit is simple compared to the ones I use with my trains. I have left batteries on the charger overnight (forgot about them!!!) without any issues.
I did charge all 15 engines the other day, I keep a log of when I charge them.
Wrecks are no more worrisome running BPRC than any other system, at least i don't get the arcing and sparking I use to get with all that wattage going down the rails, so that makes it better IMO.
Myself and others have posted frequently about our efforts, just do a search on BPRC.
Remember...the older DCS and TMCC engines also have batteries in them too 
Bob Delbridge posted:I did charge all 15 engines the other day, I keep a log of when I charge them.
That sounds too much like work...
Rusty
Rusty, no biggie. Went upstairs every 2 hours to swap them out on the chargers. Had 3 going at a time so took 1/2 day. Pick a rainy indoors type of day and you're all set 
Of course I didn't HAVE to do all 15, but I thought I'd start off fresh. Folks have reported leaving them on the shelf for almost a full year without having to be recharged. I wonder how long these batteries sit on store shelves without getting recharged??? I get mine from All-Battery in CA, they are usually cheaper online thru Amazon/Ebay than direct from their warehouse (approx $15).
Bob Delbridge posted:Remember...the older DCS and TMCC engines also have batteries in them too
NOT MINE! I replace all my engine batteries with Super Capacitors.
I use an I-charger 106b, a sophisticated computerized charger which permits charging at 5 amps or greater,,, safely. A good Lipo battery takes about 12 to 15 minutes.
Also, use a Lilon charger for Lilon batteries.
I use separate ac to dc transformer to supply 12 to 15 volts DC. this decision to convert was very easy for me, because I have so much gear. For others maybe not so easy.
Next locomotive for conversion is a Pecos River early model ATSF Hudson.
It seems most of the concern here is about battery charge time. With the lipo batteries that most here are using these batteries will charge in less than thirty minutes with a proper lipo charger. I'm an RC veteran with over thirty giant scale airplanes and half my planes are battery powered. With that said it pains me that there's been no mention of battery safety here.
Lipos are time bombs if you drop one on the floor or something happens to your charger or cell balancer.
I would never leave a lipo in a train unattended. My lipos stay locked in a steel 50 Cal ammo box and the ammo box stays inside an old wood heater with fire brick. Also I never charge my lipos unattended. I always have them in my sight when charging them. when they're charged I either put them in a plane and fly or they go back in the steel box.
The reason I keep the ammo box in an old cast wood heater is because one three cell lipo can blow a steel 50 Cal ammo can apart and shoot five foot flames like a blow torch. Don't ask me how I know this.
Lipos do what we rc'ers call puffing. No matter how well you handle them or take care of them they start to swell or "puff" over time. Lipos usually need to be discarded about every two years even though they still hold a good charge they'll be swollen up round like a basketball. Before discarding I always cut off both battery leads and drop the battery in a five gallon bucket of salt water for about a day to truly kill the battery. Otherwise it may burn the recycle center down when they crush it and the cells short.
Lipos have great power but with great power comes greater responsibility.
Tom
Bob - I differ with your comments about derailment/wreck issues. In general practice we don't have "non-derailing " turnouts in 2 rail O scale. With powered frogs a locomotive running into a mis-aligned turnout will stop before reaching the points - no derailment. During operating sessions this at times does happen due to inattentive crew - annoying but harmless. Those with lift sections providing no duck access to the train room will have added risk of trains hitting the floor using RC battery operations. With powered rails micro switches can be used to to kill juice to the tracks approaching the lift section when it is open. The factors I mention were not designed to knock dead rail - but to point out there are other factors to be considered in making the decision beyond the pluses associated with minimal wiring. .
Tom,
It's true one has to use common sense and practice safety with the lipos. I've used them sense they came out. I dumb thumbed one of my pattern planes into a high speed dive into the turf. The lipo packs blew up and burned the plane down to ashes by the time we get to it. Also in national rc car racing I have had a crash create a battery fire.
The question of suitability of battery powered locos is a non-issue. For the past year I've been running three battery powered bluetooth equipped diesels, a GP-9, a RS-3 and a NW-2. Operating modes include precise forward and reverse speed control, controllable front & rear headlights, ditch lights and sound. Performance is flawless, especially at low speed. All three locos can be run simultaneously. Operating distance is over 100 feet. These locos have been demonstrated at various club meets with high interest by the attendees. Detailed steps for the conversion of a conventional power loco to battery power were outlined in my article in the December 2016 O Gauge Railroading magazine. Would be happy to discuss further with anyone interested.
Ed,
No problem. I have no wiring to my layout and forget that others do (like powered turnouts and lighting).
We all know we have to be careful when running our trains. Whether they have DCS, TMCC, DCC, or BPRC, there's certain things that must be considered.
The BIG attraction for me was NO TRACK WIRING. Working in and around electronics for over 30 years with the Navy, not having to worry about wiring is a plus
After seeing/operating your layout I can't see how it could be run without the system you have.
I think battery power is here to stay. Not sure if the manufacturers will buy in to it. Perhaps leave it for the retro guys. For me though, at my age I’ll stay with track wiring. It gives me a feeling of accomplishment when complete.
Rod Miller
Look at this article about batteries made with asphalt!!!:
I like the idea of going "Dead Rail", but like others here I question the practicality of having a roster of engines that all need recharged. You would need to power certain tracks that the engines sit on to basically create "charge tracks". You also need to make sure that you have an appropriately sized charger capable of the max possible load. Also, depending on they type of batteries you use this could be potentially a fire hazard. I've been using LiPo batteries for years in RC planes and the accepted method of charging is to NEVER leave them to charge unattended. Other battery chemistries like LiFePo4 are much safer. These are the batteries that you usually get in a Dewalt drill for instance. They are larger and heavier than LiPo cells, but for our trains that shouldn't be a problem. They do not experience 'thermal runaway' and don't have the tendency to catch fire and explode like Lipos can.
My personal problem is that most Dead Rail systems don't have sound and smoke. I have no interest in that. I had an RC controlled Bachmann G scale engine 30 years ago, so it isn't exactly cutting edge tech. Also, if I don't have sound and smoke I don't want to run the trains. It can be done, but not many do. I like what Ring Engineering has done with their RailPro system. They make Dead Rail very simple in the smaller scales. Maybe they will offer a larger decoder that could work in O? Still, you have to gut your engines and wire in the new system no matter what you do.
I think (hope) that Lionel is heading towards some form of a battery option in the future. Now that they are putting Bluetooth into all their engines it wouldn't be all that much of a stretch to offer a battery option. It might be wishful thinking, but it is technically feasible.
IF I had my wish Lionel would offer a battery powered option for each engine and a new 2 rail high rail track system for them to operate on. The ONLY reason that I still buy 3 rail is that there is no better option from Lionel, and since they have the best sounds on the market I'm stuck. I was really tempted to build my own 2 rail high rail layout with MTH Hi-Rail Proto 3/2 engines, but Lionel's sounds are too good to pass up for me. I HATE the 3rd rail though so as soon as there is a 2 rail option from Lionel I will jump on it. I would even buy the same models over again just to get away from the 3rd rail.
That's just me though...
Some of you guys are drastically over thinking charging and are mentally creating a problem where none exists. In regards to derailments, get some better track work in place. The only time I've ever had derailment problems was in n scale. It was a combination of wheel gauge and poor track work at switches. If you are converting a 3 rail engine with deep flanges over to battery power, you've got zero excuses for derailment. None! Your layout is very poorly done if that's an issue and I won't for a second accept the lack of non derailing switches as an excuse. Scale wheels shouldn't have any issues either. Derailments may not be impossible but they should be so few and far between that it's considered a non issue.
Sound installation coming up. Stay tuned.
In keeping with this theme what would it take to place a battery in a boxcar, install a wiring harness and run a modern can motor? Would that battery drive a TMCC equipped loco? And since I rarely run anything for more than an hour at a time, if I could get a 2 hour run time, charging would never be an obstacle for me.
I may be wrong, but I think TMCC and DCS need certain triggers from AC to make some things work.
In my Williams E7 I have the BlueRail board and a 2" GEMS bluetooth speaker installed for onboard sound (sound is in the BlueRail but comes out of the Ipad). With the bluetooth speaker I just make sure my Ipad "sees" it and the sound then comes out of the engine. Could probably put a smaller speaker in for use in a smaller engine.
Less than 1/2 of my engines are equipped with LiPo batteries, so far no trouble charging them in the engine/tender.
I've got a couple of 1/16 tanks with LiPo batteries in them. The chargers are CHEAP (made) compared to the one I have for my trains and have had no issues with them either. Charging at 1amp/hr vice fast charging is the answer. All my others have NiMh batteries. All my engines have modern can motors, brushed.
I get 2-1/2 hours of run time, course I don't run them flat out either. I either use the 4-wire connector that came with the Williams engines or the 10-wire straight connectors that MTH sells for my steam engines. On diesels I just run the wires from the motor and lights to the board I'm using.
There's a few videos around of some of my engines and those of Bob Walker.
necrails posted:In keeping with this theme what would it take to place a battery in a boxcar, install a wiring harness and run a modern can motor? Would that battery drive a TMCC equipped
It can be done. That's what I wanted to do with all my TMCC locos. About 10 of them,,,However, The TMCC requires AC power at 60khz and this requires a miniature DC to AC inverter to convert the battery power to AC and I cannot find anything miniaturized and ready to go. I would probably have to have an engineer design one and have it built for me. I'll be selling my Tmcc units shortly. The conversion costs to RC are about $200 per loco with sound.
Ron H posted:necrails posted:In keeping with this theme what would it take to place a battery in a boxcar, install a wiring harness and run a modern can motor? Would that battery drive a TMCC equipped
It can be done. That's what I wanted to do with all my TMCC locos. About 10 of them,,,However, The TMCC requires AC power at 60khz and this requires a miniature DC to AC inverter to convert the battery power to AC and I cannot find anything miniaturized and ready to go. I would probably have to have an engineer design one and have it built for me. I'll be selling my Tmcc units shortly. The conversion costs to RC are about $200 per loco with sound.
Yep, the DC/AC inverter is the problem. Lionel has the ability to make legacy boards that accept DC input. The American Flyer Legacy engines will run on DC power. They have not done that in O scale yet to my knowledge.
With all due respect Fred, please explain how I am creating an issue where there is none? I have battery powered tools, computers, tablets, headphones, hands-free devices, phones, flashlights, RC boats, RC cars, and RC planes in my house and it never fails that when I want to use one of them they aren't charged. The thought of keeping several dozen engines charged doesn't sound like fun to me. I would do it if it meant running on 2 rail track, but until battery technology progresses to the point where I can run for many hours on a charge and I can safely charge unattended, I still prefer track power.
Like Bob Delbridge, two of my three battery powered locos have on-board sound. A small bluetooth amplifier PC board and a decent size speaker (2-21/2") fit easily into the locos and work well. The sound is controlled by the BlueRail app in my iPad and can be switched between diesel and steam.
As an easier alternate, a complete small bluetooth speaker chassis can be installed in a trailing tender/boxcar/toolcar. I've done this and works just as well.
