Coming off west shore side of the bridge, headed south towards Enola. Couldn’t pull over to take pictures, but judging by the amount of people who already were, they’ll be some online soon.
Tom
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Here are some pics.
Appears that folks on NS still haven't figured out that empty center-beam cars do NOT work well in long trains negotiating sharp curves, with loaded cars on either side of the empties. Another classic "string-lining" event.
They had several last year on Horseshoe Curve. Same cause, empty center beams near the front of the train.
It's amazing NS keeps doing the same thing over and over. Heads need to roll in that company.
@NJCJOE posted:It's amazing NS keeps doing the same thing over and over. Heads need to roll in that company.
Well the real issue is, and has been for some months, after most all of the experienced railroaders have "departed" as the result of the farce of Precision Scheduled Railroading, those people remaining have no clue. Most all of the experienced railroaders have retired, some even took early retirement.
Those that remain have never actually run a train, worked as a Yardmaster, worked in the track dept., worked in the Mechanical Dept., etc., etc., etc..
That is the part of the PSR playbook railroads forgot to read. Hunter Harrison did believe those in the front office neeed to know how a railroad worked.
I think that is true for any business.
I also think true PSR died with its inventor, Hunter. He had an instinct about railroads which was innate, and could never be truly transfered to others. And I think it could only truly work on a line like pre CN IC.
But before a road can do any sort of train makeup or scheduling, it needs to learn basic train makeup.
NS has a hat trick with derailments today....
I find it unbelievable that no one in charge at NS now understands that you cannot place empty flats ahead of loads and expect the train to negotiate a sharp curve under power.
This is really sad...in so many ways.
Reading all the above tells me the something these railroads need to do is to make every person responsible for making up a train run a model railroad for several months.
A model railroad which features situations that have been the focus of the last ten years of accidents. Maybe even a RR version of an airplane flight simulator.
Better start off with an I.Q. test. That train was an accident looking for a place to happen.
Just put the yardmasters in a real locomotive simulator, and let run the same train that derailed at the same location.
UP had one in a semitrailer at the Amtrak Sta. in Houston while 844 was here. I took a turn on it. Gives new meaning to the word pucker time.
@Hot Water posted:Appears that folks on NS still haven't figured out that empty center-beam cars do NOT work well in long trains negotiating sharp curves, with loaded cars on either side of the empties. Another classic "string-lining" event.
Starting to think that "NS" stands for "Not Smart".
Well, that never happens on our layouts, right gang? Right? 
But real world? Sad...
Unlike most of you, I am of the type that believes one is considered innocent until proven guilty. I have my doubts that this is merely putting flat cars ahead of loads. That is a table flat grade across that bridge. The train made it through the same sharp curves on the other side of the bridge, so, why didn't it do the same here? Unlike what had happened up on Horseshoe Curve where it is straight up hill, here, they should not have had to use much power to move the train to begin with.
I have a feeling that something happened to cause an undesired emergency brake application. The brakes on the rear sat down and since the train was moving at a crawl, the rear stopped before the head end. Go try that with your model trains. Grab the last car while the train is still moving and see what happens.
Now, does anyone have the facts of what actually happened here? Or are you all without sin and throwing the first stone?
The railroad certainly has some chips in this game, because of sending a train out on the road with poor train makeup. heavy cars to the rear of light cars greatly increases the possibility of a derailment due to either excessive draught force or buff force.
But . . . trains like this are (sadly) operated every day, and not every one of them derails. In fact only a small percentage of them derail.
The root cause of this type of derailment can usually be traced back to the hand on the throttle, dynamic brake controller, and air brake valves. A competent Locomotive Engineer, knowing the tonnage profile of the train, should be able to operate it safely through difficult territory, using planning, skill, finesse, and -- yes -- experience. These days, Engineers are taught a process to use in running a train. The sharper ones figure out the finer points and become skilled. Others just do as instructed and usually get by.
Having said that, please remember that this may not have been a lapse of skill and responsibility on the part of the Engineer. If an undesired emergency brake application occurred, say, from a kicker, or a parted or burst air hose, then there could have been a run-out of slack that increased draught force to the point that the lightest cars were pulled off, on the curve. And at slow speeds, such as are required at this location, in-train forces are more noticeably increased by every change in throttle or braking. The engine crew is entitled to benefit of the doubt while investigation of the derailment is ongoing.
Track could have been another factor. If spikes did not hold the rail upright and in proper gauge, it might have allowed the rail to turn under load when the train slack adjusted.
That takes nothing away from the responsibility of the railroad, to make up its trains in a manner that will not enable this sort of derailment. Any time which might have been saved by making one long train out of two normal length trains was lost, not just to this train but to dozens of others due to the main track being blocked by derailed cars.
The railroad enabled this derailment. It was caused by either the actions of the Locomotive Engineer or by an unplanned severe slack adjustment initiated by something outside of the Engineer's control, or by track condition.
Questions, questions, questions. Accident investigation is complex. The worst dressing down I ever received was for submitting an derailment investigation report giving the cause as "spread rail", which set the Superintendent's hair on fire.
@Big Jim posted:Unlike most of you, I am of the type that believes one is considered innocent until proven guilty. I have my doubts that this is merely putting flat cars ahead of loads. That is a table flat grade across that bridge. The train made it through the same sharp curves on the other side of the bridge, so, why didn't it do the same here?
Where do you get your information that the grade is flat and unless the train was routed to or from the Buffalo Line the curve is nowhere near as sharp on the east end of the bridge. The curve to the Buffalo line is sharp (10 mph) but not the mainline curve (30 mph). It is uphill from the East end of the Rockville Bridge to some where between CP Hip and 111L. CP Hip is just South (Eastbound into Enola) from where the cars wrecked. Its not a large grade but that curve is just West (North) of top if coming from Enola. Coming off the Buffalo Line or West on the Pittsburgh Line going west over the bridge into Enola it is a little bit of a haul.
I have not talked to anyone about this but one example could be he was pulling into Enola and came upon a stop signal at 111-L pulling in on B Track. At 111-L he could have had a stop signal which is a Low Home Signal. If he stopped the train with the Dynamic and Independent Brake there would most likely be a run-out of slack after making the stop. Or possibly he was stopped at 111-L and then started out again with those flats sitting on the curve. Getting the train to move at this location would put high stress forces at the curve since the majority of the train is hanging downhill. This would be extremely bad if all the brakes were not released before attempting to pull. If the slack ran out when he started pulling; well you can see where this could be bad real quick.
I am using this as an example due that some of the lumber cars were loaded. Loaded lumber comes off the Buffalo line quite a bit. I have pulled several hundred trains around this curve. Never had a problem. I have been retired for quite a while but I have to wonder was the engineer running the train as trained or just doing what the Trip Advisor was telling him to do. I am thank full that I never had to use it. Most likely would have been fired by now.
Forest.
Thank you for that Forest. Along with Tom, you brought up a lot factors that could have happened. Factors that we, the public, may never know.
While that "river" grade may not be absolutely flat, it is nothing like going up Horseshoe Curve. And if it is up grade at all, why would anyone be stopping with the dynamic brake? I certainly would never do that!
I have taken many a train up steeper grades than Horseshoe Curve with empty flat cars and nothing ever happened. I have also seen a train that stringlined a bunch of empty covered hoppers, but, the reason for that was because of a broken trainline well behind those cars caused the rear end to sit down while ascending a heavy grade.
Still the main point here is that, most of those who are posting above want to place the blame without knowing the real facts!
As for the "Trip Advisor", let's just say that I am glad that I never even saw one of them!
Forrest, Big Jim . . . cranky Conductors at the rear of the trains used to be our "trip advisors." Worked pretty well, too.
Yes, they did!
For what it's worth, reliable sources tell me the FRA Cause Code of H514 (Failure to allow air brakes to fully release before proceeding) has been assigned to this derailment.
C.J.
The thing is this happen before and might happen again.I just think these cars should have been at the end of the train.
I think I meant Trip Optimizer. Another way he could have gotten run-out was if he was pulling out of the Westbound Class Yard up over the crossover at 111-L from C to B track out to CP-Hip around the curve of the derailment to a stop signal at Rockville, then left his slack run in when he stopped. Most of his train would have been behind the curve when it ran back out. If he had a really large train just trying to get the train moving again at Rockville with the bulk of his train down in the hole coming out of the Class yard might have been more then the racks could handle.
I have a friend that still works there. If I can ever get a hold of him I will ask what happened.
Forest.
@Number 90 posted:Forrest, Big Jim . . . cranky Conductors at the rear of the trains used to be our "trip advisors." Worked pretty well, too.
Well yes. A few of the old Pennsy Conductors gave us the Pepsi Test. If you knocked his Pepsi or other Beverage of his table during the trip you heard about it in a pretty stern language when you got in. Over on the Reading side they just learned where to take they're knocks (So I was told once). The Pennsy side Power Braked most of the time. Most of the Reading Conductors let loose on you if you did that. I got ripped out over on the Reading for Power Braking a few times. The Pennsy had long grades and the Reading was a roller coaster (Shippensburg to Allentown). The Reading Main Line was fairly smooth following the Schuylkill River. This was in the days on Conrail when each Division was run like there separate Railroads before the merger.
Forest.
@GP40 posted:For what it's worth, reliable sources tell me the FRA Cause Code of H514 (Failure to allow air brakes to fully release before proceeding) has been assigned to this derailment.
C.J.
That'll do it!
In days of yore, the cab crew would let you know when the brakes were releasing. Today, keeping an eye on the EOT reading will let you know.
But, that still leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Why an engineer would pull so hard as to pull his train off of the track? If he didn't, what condition was the track in? I think that there is more going on here than meets the eye. I also feel that it will be easy for the cause to be attributed to an easy answer and left at that, with no further deep investigation to find the root underlying cause.
Forest,
Opitmizer...Adivisor, tomato...tomahto, doesn't matter. It is the ending of a proud craft!
Does AC vs DC traction lay a difference?
@Dominic Mazoch posted:Does AC vs DC traction lay a difference?
No.
