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While I've observed some O-gaugers are rivet and/or chuff counters, I've become an amateur boilermaker of sorts - this is not a beer and whiskey reference although the term does make me thirsty for a cold one. I think there's been some confusion on this subject so hopefully this example will make it clear. 

Since I operate and collect mostly die-cast steam locomotives, I've noted over the years various models of steam locomotive boilers, specifically how some are rounded on the underside whereas others have a "U" shape - what one old time reviewer mockingly referred to as a "monolithic" design when he reviewed such models. Given the price of "scale" models, this has become a pet peeve, to a degree, since their are many factors in deciding to buy a model. From all the pictures of real engines, the rounded underside is the more accurate representation. The best way to demonstrate the difference in modeling a steam locomotive super-structure is by comparing two models of the same prototype.

First is a picture Lionel's model of the Reading & Northern Heavy Pacific. Note how the boiler casting drops down to an upside down "U" and where the arrow points to is the open end of the "U". Many of Lionel's scale steamers designed in the early 2000s utilize this design. On a real engine, you'd be able to see daylight under the boiler; in other words, this metal flange of the U doesn't exist on the real thing, and therefore, is an unwanted ugly piece of metal casting.

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This is a model of MTH Premier's Reading & Northern. It has a rounded shape to the underside of the boiler, its painted black so doesn't show as nice as it appears in person; it's actually not a continuous curve all the way around the perimeter, but nevertheless looks much better than the U-shape design, and you can see daylight between the suspension and the bottom of the boiler. 

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I understand brass models mostly have fully rounded boilers, accurate suspensions, etc., yet there's no reason why die-cast models cannot at least have the appearance of prototypically accurate boilers, as the MTH model above demonstrates. Frankly, the U-shape design is unattractive, and is very noticeable, at least at eye-level, on Lionel's scale N&W J, PRR J1a, Berks, Mountains, Mikados, 4-8-4s, and Pacifics

I don't mean to pick on Lionel with the above comparison. More recent Lionel designs such as the Reading T1 of 2015 and the Milw. Road S-3 of 2010 have the rounded undersides, whereas MTH's Premier T1 has the "U" shape flange. 

Given the never-ending discussions on prototypical accurateness, correct whistles, sounds, chuffs, etc., I feel that modeling a locomotive boiler correctly ranks up there with all the above. I recall that the "old time" reviewers in the magazines, use to note details such as boiler design. I for one, appreciated their attention to detail.

 

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Last edited by Paul Kallus
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I get what you're saying Paul and I don't disagree.  But really both of the examples in your photos look fairly U-shaped to me.

Anything that comes out of a die or mold, i.e., die-cast loco boiler, is going to have a fairly wide opening in the bottom.  There are a few exceptions (the 0-8-0 switchers have a fully-rounded boiler under the smokebox.)  Only two ways I know for sure to avoid this:

1. Sunset / 3rd Rail.  The boiler is hand-rolled from sheet brass.  The fact that they use the "Quiet Drive" (belt-and-pulley arrangement with a lower layshaft well down in the frame) means that they don't need a wide slot or a big, unprototypical gearbox sticking up.  I personally prefer the sturdy feel of a one-piece casting.  And I'm not sure that the quiet drive could tolerate the abuse of kids.  But after a dozen years it's proven itself robust enough for adult use so that wouldn't prevent me from buying one.

2. Certain Lionel (Niagara, Milwaukee S3, Reading T1) and MTH (Berkshire) steamers are cast in two pieces, with a lower casting that rounds out the lower half of the boiler.  These definitely look better to my eyes, and I would love to see more like this in the future!  Curiously, MTH took this approach on its first PS2 Berkshire circa 2000.  But with the very next release, they omitted the lower casting (!) and instead opted for more daylight above the first pair of drivers.  If you look closely you can see a mounting post poking up from the frame.  I love Berks and I've studied lots of photos of the 765, etc.  I guess the newer releases (with added daylight) are a little more prototypical (especially for the P&LE A-2 which in real life had 63" drivers.)  But their heart was in the right place.   I'm not sure that MTH used a lower casting on any other models after that.  Good thread!

Last edited by Ted S

Ted,

The U-shaped boiler wouldn't prevent me from buying a model that I really liked, although it was the deciding criterion in not buying the latest Legacy Hudson. When I saw the more recent N&W J and PRR J1a at Nicholas Smith last Christmas, prominently displayed on the upper shelves, the under-sided U-shaped boilers stood out like ugly ducklings, and pretty much put the kibosh on them. Otherwise, they were great looking models. However, the recent 4-8-4s which do have the U-shape are on my radar, mainly because I like everything else about it. I suppose Lionel will eventually update all their die-castings over time, but if there's no incentive they're likely just keep re-issuing. 

I took a look  at the MTH old-time locomotives a while back, but was totally turned off by the heavy U-shaped appearance of the boilers. I know that compromises are needed in die-casting, but those went a little far IMO. The old American Flyer S gauge tank cars have 2-piece bodies with lower curve and tank pedestal cast together. A decent solution to my eyes , but then again it ain't my money. 

I thought I was the only modeler freaked out by these.  I cut the K-Line Berk and Hudson bellies out and replaced them with rounded brass.  Such good models above the running boards, so awful below.

I personally thought both were too small - I like larger models.

The early Lionel scale models had round boilers - see 700E and 701.

The two MTH locos I have - PRR D16 4-4-0 and H3 2-8-0 - simulate a round boiler by mounting the lower portion to the frame, the seam being hidden by the running boards.  It works.

I agree 100% with Paul, but this kind of attention to detail seems to be a fringe in the 3-rail world, even among those spending 4 figures on locomotives.  Too bad.

Last edited by 49Lionel

The die-cast Williams Scale Hudson has a round boiler, with clear daylight visible underneath. The K Line semi-Scale one, doesn’t. The MPC era semi-Scale Hudskn certainly doesn’t. 

For what I paid for these locos, and the general level of detailing, I’m relaxed enough about all of the above. 

If I’d paid four figures for a new model, I wouldn’t ..

 

 

The U shaped boiler is probably necessary for the postwar type lionel mechanism with every axle geared and a gear tower along the side of the chassis.    The side rods are just along for the ride.    I don't know if this style mechanism is still used in 3 rail steamers.   If it is, it does require a large opening on the underside of the boiler.

2 Rail steamers pretty much used a totally different style mechanism from the 30s and 40s.    These have a shaft from the motor  with a worm directly to a gear on the axle, or in later years, to a gear box between the frames on one axle.    This style requires a much narrower opening in most cases than the all geared type mechanism.   The other axles are powered from this one with the side rods of the locomotive that connect all the drivers.    In some respects these mechs are harder to build, since they require the drivers to be accurately quartered like the prototype.    However, it does not require as many machined gears.

The difference in the style of mechanisms probably leads a lot to the U-shape vs more rounded boilers.

Ease of casting is probably the motivator, although electronics and motor location surely drove some of these atrocities.  As I understand it, a lot of Lionel collectors did not like seeing daylight between drivers and boilers, even though most real steamers had daylight there.  The worst, of course, was K-Line - they had to put the motor between the cylinder steam pipes, instead of in the firebox, where God and others intended.

Here are the two K-Line convertees.  I moved the motor back to the firebox for both, and re-constructed the boiler in brass.  I had to do a similar operation to the MTH Hudson, which was not quite as bad as the K-Line.  That one is a keeper - as soon as I can figure out how to do a factory reset, I will be really happy with that one.  Almost as good as a 1-700E.

kline1Weaver and KLine 001

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@Paul Kallus I took a second look at your photos.  The flat area the arrow is pointing to on the Lionel version... I usually call that a "skirt."  I'm pretty sure it's there to conceal electronics mounted on the chassis.  I personally abhor the idea of a big electronic sandwich inside the loco.   It makes maintenance a nightmare!  I would happily live without gimmicks like whistle steam, and even speed control, to banish those circuit boards to the tender where they belong!

@prrjim The use of spur gears doesn't preclude a narrow chassis or daylight under the boiler... check out some vintage Marklin or Fleischmann!  But Lionel hasn't used a parallel-plate chassis with spur gears in decades.  And never in their premium offerings.  About 95% of the scale-sized die-cast locos in 3-rail O follow the pattern set by the Lionel 700e Hudson in 1937:  A die-cast boiler with a large U-shaped opening; a one-piece die-cast chassis with the "gearbox" (worm gear bearing retainers) cast integrally.  Axles and worm wheel captive in the chassis.  Large motor in the firebox driving a worm geared to the 2nd or 3rd driving axle.  The other axles are powered through the rods, so the wheels do have to be accurately quartered for the loco to run smoothly.

The 700E was mass-produced, but its basic design was similar to early "craftsman" locos like Icken, etc.  My biggest point of frustration with the Lionel / MTH design compared to scale models like Lobaugh and US Hobbies, is the captive axles and gearbox.  I would LOVE to install a 'box with a lower gear ratio, and get rid of the grooved wheels and rubber tires.  But unless you're a master machinist, there's just no way.  As a modeler and tinkerer I feel cheated!

@bob2 the 700E has a huge opening in the underside of the boiler.  That tooling was reused numerous times, most recently in 2010.  IMO it's an egregious offender, especially the "semi-scale" versions without the add-on reverse gear, etc. which helps to fill the empty space above the drivers.  The 701 switcher isn't perfect either, but it is better than the latest K-Line / Lionel attempt at a Pennsy B6, which is to say pretty amazing for 80-year old tooling!

I agree with you about K-Line's motor leaning forward into the boiler.  What were they thinking?  Small, cheap motor and compromised design.  I guess it was supposed to allow more room for electronics (ugh!), but I fail to see how.  When Lionel reissued the Lima Berk (made from K-Line tooling), they used a good-quality motor and put it in the firebox where it belongs!  Unfortunately, the reissued Mikados persisted in the error of their ways, so I passed on the USRA Heavy, even though it was a handsome model not previously done in 3-rail O.

Last edited by Ted S

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