Running trains under someone else's rules.

I support your decision.  If the church wants to have trains in foyer 24/7 then ask that they purchase them and you and your son would be happy to set them up and run them as needed.

I also understand the no smoke rule.  At our church 70% of the congregation is probably over 50.  Several have health issues, some on oxygen.  Smoke is not their friend.

I do NOT see their point about leaving your trains there, and your experience only goes to prove that it's a really bad idea!  It's really easy to ask someone else to sacrifice their property, it doesn't cost them anything.

Although I love the smoke, I see their point on using it in their building.

When in Rome...

Rusty

Somehow, others see our trains as "toys".  Well, they really are toys.  But so are golf clubs, boats, coin collections, sports cars, etc.  Would the owners of some of those items leave them unattended in an unwatched area ?

As Rusty says when in Rome do as the Romans do but if you know the rules ahead of time don't go to Rome......Paul

When I was going to the Jersey Shore in Avalon about 16 years ago my friends and I would have a Christmas in July Party and I would always bring my trains down to run around the Christmas tree. I did have a close call as someone went into the rooms of my friends and stole their cameras and money.Fortunately they did not touch my trains as I had hid them in the closet after the party. I am always careful as to who I share my trains with.

Our club layout is in a Hobbytown store in Kennesaw, GA.  The owner is a gracious host whose only two requests when we are running trains is that we leave one of the four mainlines open for kids to operate a train using one of the push buttons; and that we leave the smoke off.  

For special store promotions; we’ll run member trains on all four mainlines and set up the traveling kids layout we take to shows so the kids can run trains on that.

Curt

scott.smith posted:

. . . my pastor would send someone to the foyer demanding that the trains get turned off at once. It appears that he was concerned about noise or people skipping service to watch trains. Sorry the crowd wasn't big enough to be concerned. My son as many of you know has autism, someone running out of the sanctuary saying turn off the trains now, didn't go over very well with him. That was the last time I ran trains at church.

Scott Smith

No good deed goes unpunished.  A tip of my hat to you for continuing to bring trains long after most of us would have quit.

If I were to bring any of my trains to a public event, the trains would always be my cheap items that I don’t care about. The public will rarely be careful with someone else’s property. I also feel that since it is your property, it should fall within your rules as to how they should be used or it would be a deal breaker. Also having an insurance policy is a good idea if you regularly bring trains to public events.

There is no way I would I would leave any of my trains there , unless it was a set that I did not care about. Have not had one yet and agree with previous statement. The church should not expect you to leave them there and purchase something on there own, and may be rope it off for viewing purposes only.

As far as the smoke fluid goes, the last time I ran the smoke my son in law ended up in ER, due to his allergies. My wife also has allergies and can tolerate very little. With that being said, I either run no smoke or wait until I am by myself to crank it up.

Joe Gozzo

Setting up a train display that is to remain in place for a period of time, particularly during the holiday period, is always a bit of a challenge. It's great to have the opportunity to share our hobby with the public, and perhaps even gain a new participant or two, but at the same time there is a legitimate concern for the security of the display and its items (especially the trains). And, as Scott and others noted, the use of smoke, even though our toy train smoke is relatively harmless compared to "real" smoke, can be problematic.

There is no one-size-fits-all solution that I can recommend, aside from knowing the venue and what the hosts there expect well in advance of agreeing to do the display. Even then, security is almost always a concern for any display that is to remain in place 24/7 over a period of time, even a relatively short period. That can be a problem even if the display is being overseen by its owners or assistants during the time visitors are viewing it because prying little fingers (or even big ones) are a continual concern. Plexiglas barriers can certainly help to mitigate problems, but even those are not always enough.

I certainly recommend NOT including the most costly/important trains as part of any such display unless it will be for a relatively short period under the owner's direct supervision. Most of us have more trains that we need or can possibly enjoy, so put aside some for public display that are not quite "expendable," but fairly close to it. I, for example, have a good number of Thomas the Tank Engine & Friends O gauge trains that I have no problem setting up for a kids-oriented event, as well as a number of conventional O gauge that I can use for other types of displays--simple, durable, and attractive locomotives and rolling stock (especially Christmas-theme items). My more costly and sophisticated Christmas trains--MTH diesels with charging lights and that sort of thing--remain at home for my family and friends to see. 

I guess things just have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Given Scott's experience with the church display, I think he is right to just back-off doing that under the current circumstances. No point in going to the trouble of setting up a nice display at a venue where there are too many rules or conditions, no matter how well intended.

Scott,

I have followed your photos and forum posts for many years.  Thank you and your son for promoting the hobby and bringing joy to many people by running your trains at the VMT, church and other venues. 

We have encountered similar problems at the G&O garden railway.  We allow kids to run trains during our shows on the children's display.  The kids and their parents appreciate the opportunity to run and watch trains but they have no knowledge of the cost of trains or their delicate nature.  Therefore, the only trains that we allow kids to run are ones that we don't care about if they are broken.

Another thing that I have noticed is that the only thing most people care about with a public display  train is that it runs.  Almost none of the public can tell the difference between a scale engine costing $2,000 and an old used engine costing $50 nor do they care.  It isn't worth it running your best trains for the public.

The G&O has recently bought several Lion Chief Thomas and other similar engines and trains.  The Lion Chief products are almost kid proof.  You can limit their speed by setting to the maximum track voltage so that the trains will never derail.  The biggest problem with the Lion Chief is that the kids turn the throttle back and forth so fast and violently that the remote sometimes breaks.  The remote is glued together so it is difficult to take apart to repair the throttle.  A dremel solves this problem.  

I suggest that you, or better yet have your church, buy some cheap (?) Lion Chief sets if you are going to continue run trains for kids.  Put up a barrier around the trains so that they can't touch the trains and let the kids use the remote to operate them.  The remote can be fastened or tethered to the barrier.  

Smoke is not a problem for the G&O because we run outdoors.  I can see how using smoke indoors could cause problems.  I don't run smoke on my home layout because it fills the room so fast that I can't see even though it doesn't seem to bother me.  

Here is a photo of young girl with running two Lion Chief trains on the G&O.  She was a very careful and responsible operator.  NH Joe

 

 

 

 

I routinely run trains at shows, museums et cetera.  I save the fancy stuff for dedicated train shows;  otherwise, it's usually commonplace expendable $5-10 locos and cars.  The kiddies don't know the difference, and they love it all the same!    

The one exception is the JRM museum at the Arkansas and Missouri.   This is because I'm the volunteer curator and have control over the place...  

I also have three classes of gi-raffe cars:  no horn, one horn and two horn.   The two horn ones usually stay home except for big train shows, and the no-and one-horn ones (with horns made from yellow head dressmaker pins for visual effect) are the ones that take the brunt of the little Gomez Addamses. 

Mitch 

House rules? Wife says I can't play trains until I eat all my veggies. Seriously I have a few random thoughts in no particular order:

When it comes to charitable organizations wanting me to set up trains I usually buy a new set (Polar express lionchief mostly) and donate it to them. I'll set it up and show them how to use it. After that if it breaks or gets lost it is on them to repair or replace.

definitely no deed goes unpunished. Once while I had some guests over the some and father were downstairs with me. All of a sudden I hear bang bang bang coming from upstairs. In my health it takes me a while to get up there but I did just n time to witness the two other kids taking all of the standard gauge trains off of the shelves in the living room and dropping them on the hardwood floors. All while Ms. bleach blonde soccer mom stands there and grins like the deer in the headlights.

If you get asked to set up a train display somewhere where you really want to not do it without starting a fight just ask the person in charge what their insurance deductible is and that should end the conversation.

 

ChooChoo1972 posted:

House rules? 

How about you break it, you buy it.

All of a sudden I hear bang bang bang coming from upstairs. In my health it takes me a while to get up there but I did just n time to witness the two other kids taking all of the standard gauge trains off of the shelves in the living room and dropping them on the hardwood floors. All while Ms. bleach blonde soccer mom stands there and grins like the deer in the headlights.

I guarantee I would have more than a few choice words for Goldilocks and her band of brats as I was escorting them out of my house.

  We were setting up our module layout up at a show we have been doing for over 12 years. A guy comes over from another club and tells us no smoke. I tell him to get lost ! We have a building with a 50 foot high ceiling. If you have a medical problem don't come to a train show. Go collect stamps !  I cater to the hundreds of kids who love it !

 I don't like the smoke put out by the burnout pits in Sturgis. I just stay away . Problem solved.

ChooChoo1972 posted:

House rules? Wife says I can't play trains until I eat all my veggies. Seriously I have a few random thoughts in no particular order:

When it comes to charitable organizations wanting me to set up trains I usually buy a new set (Polar express lionchief mostly) and donate it to them. I'll set it up and show them how to use it. After that if it breaks or gets lost it is on them to repair or replace.

definitely no deed goes unpunished. Once while I had some guests over the some and father were downstairs with me. All of a sudden I hear bang bang bang coming from upstairs. In my health it takes me a while to get up there but I did just n time to witness the two other kids taking all of the standard gauge trains off of the shelves in the living room and dropping them on the hardwood floors. All while Ms. bleach blonde soccer mom stands there and grins like the deer in the headlights.

If you get asked to set up a train display somewhere where you really want to not do it without starting a fight just ask the person in charge what their insurance deductible is and that should end the conversation.

 

Goes back to my previous post.  Suppose your kids were visiting her house and started playing with her collector dolls, Hummels, etc.  Even if your kids were being careful, I'll bet she'd be in a tizzy.

I am a member of a modular club, National Capital Trackers, and we do about 25 shows a year, most are multiple day shows, some as long as a week.

Many times I will bring a bunch of boxcars on Day 1 and plan on using them throughout the week. It is nice leaving them there overnight, maybe a few engines too, and not having to pack and unpack and transport them over and over from show to home.

I don't tempt fate though, most time I will put them back in the O Scale Haulers and push them under a table or skirted module.

But, what comforts me is the train insurance I have bought through the TCA (Bash and Burns) that covers my trains at home, at shows, wherever they are, against theft, fire, flood, etc.

I used to belong to a modular club until some of the old timers got uppity about having kids around during meetings.  These guys would bring $800 and up loco's and fancy passenger cars to events.  While several off the events were multi-day, I usually only got to do one day given family and work commitments, so even if my module and display pieces were there more than one day, my equipment was not.

The biggest house rule was usually no smoke - particularly at the library and the Ronald McDonald's house.  The ceilings certainly weren't high but it had more to do with potential health concerns.  (although one woman at the library was convinced it would set off the fire alarm).  This varied by venue.

The other club members would also give me grief about running speeds.  For crying out loud when 0-72 was the smallest diameter we had why wouldn't you want to open things up a little bit? I tried to explain the my WM Challenger had a fireball and the side of it and was lettered "fast freight", not walking speed freight!  The really annoying was however that my son, about 10 at the time, would bring his LC Polar Express and spend his whole day making sure visiting kids got to run it.  It always made me proud to be his Dad.  But every other time I turned around a club member who was newer than we were decided to drop the throttle back to 10-12 volts.  Basically the house rules had informally become if you don't want to play our way, it doesn't matter if you are a member or not.

Folks,
It seems to me I am reading about situations where people are not having fun.  My advice: if you aren't having fun, don't do it.
(And don't leave anybody alone with your trains, not even adults)

I have actually run a $2000+ RC live steam loco in place on rollers, once at a public library and once at a Barnes and Noble store where I worked in Charlotte, NC. The prep work for filling the boiler, the lubricator and the butane fuel tank was very educational, as well as the safety procedures for running a loco with a live flame in the boiler. NO problems with smoke or heat detectors as ceilings were quite high in both locations. The audience response was positive and lots of good questions. My wife was my assistant and we were in control at all times. I also set up an LGB catenary system for a weekend exhibit at a children's museum and had a baby crocodile loco pulling some very nice German style passenger cars. Left the display up overnight on Saturday and packed up Sunday after the show was over. Again, my wife was my assistant, and my display neighbor had a standard gauge display and we looked out for each other! The children and adults in attendance enjoyed the show behind a velvet rope barricade and asked lots of questions. Across from me was a holiday-permanent O gauge layout with pushbuttons for accessories. All guests had,a good time and NO accidents The key is planning for the venue and having control.

Regarding our liquid train "smoke": our smoke fluids are various compositions of mineral oil of varying viscosity with or without "flavoring" additives. Used with high ceilings and/or adequate ventilation, they are not generally an issue for people who do not have asthma, COPD, or other breathing issues. The "smoke" output is actually a colloidial suspension of lipid particles in a vapor, and under certain conditions could cause a lipid pneumonia, but a person would have to have a predisposing medical condition and be in an enclosed, unventilated space with said vapor from a robust unit for an extended period.

Tinplate Art posted:

Regarding our liquid train "smoke": our smoke fluids are various compositions of mineral oil of varying viscosity with or without "flavoring" additives. Used with high ceilings and/or adequate ventilation, they are not generally an issue for people who do not have asthma, COPD, or other breathing issues. The "smoke" output is actually a colloidial suspension of lipid particles in a vapor, and under certain conditions could cause a lipid pneumonia, but a person would have to have a predisposing medical condition and be in an enclosed, unventilated space with said vapor from a robust unit for an extended period.

I explain to visitors that the "smoke" coming from the locomotive is actually a form of "vaping", and they nod their head knowingly. 

Mitch 

There are places beginning to enforce "No Vaping" rules also.

Regardless: If the owner or manager of the facility says "turn off the smoke," one turns off the smoke. 

We had a manager of a hotel threaten to cut off our power if we didn't turn off the smoke.

Rusty

There is one reason I do not belong to ANY club with a public layout.  You can be really nice and tell a young person about the rules.  Then a parent comes over and tells me I am ruining the child's self esteem.  Plus with the sue crazy nation it is no longer worth it.

Tinplate Art posted:

Regarding our liquid train "smoke": our smoke fluids are various compositions of mineral oil of varying viscosity with or without "flavoring" additives. Used with high ceilings and/or adequate ventilation, they are not generally an issue for people who do not have asthma, COPD, or other breathing issues. The "smoke" output is actually a colloidial suspension of lipid particles in a vapor, and under certain conditions could cause a lipid pneumonia, but a person would have to have a predisposing medical condition and be in an enclosed, unventilated space with said vapor from a robust unit for an extended period.

Is there a definitive answer as to whether our mineral oil smoke fluid is carcinogenic?

Is there a definitive answer as to whether our mineral oil smoke fluid is carcinogenic

I am just a lay person.
IMHO, breathing anything other than clean air is unhealthy.
Is smoke fluid carcinogenic?

We didn't always know that asbestos was carcinogenic.
Back when we owned a home insulated with vermiculite, I did a little research on it.
Back then it was considered OK.
Today there is concern that vermiculite insulation often has some asbestos fibers mixed in, and therefore is hazardous.

I think any problem would be compounded by the volume of smoke today's trains put out.

As far as public running goes: I think the host has the last word if they do not want smoke in their facility. If the host's requirements are unpalatable, don't setup the display layout. 

I only have house rules when my grandson comes to visit. It is he who imposes the rules as follows: - He gets to select what cars and locos get run. - He gets to rearrange houses that he thinks will look better. - He gets to fire the engineers when he thinks they don't do a good job, i.e. Derailment. - He gets to load the boxcars with Lincoln logs or whatever is at hand that will fit. - when I get tired and want to go back in the house for a rest he gets to tell me to just sit in a chair and he will be in charge of the layout. - Last and best rule, no one can boss us around in the train room., even grandma. I like that rule. Ed

Here is a little bit of political correctness run amuck for you. At an annual train expo the man with an exhibit who is next to me had a train layout in a WWII theme. He was asked to remove all NAZI insignias and/or markings from his German trucks, cars, tanks, etc., as they might offend somebody. 

LOL - "They are broken and we can't do it this year." - Solved.

At work there is this guy that lies so much and is so good at it I can't even tell. What's worse is its not like that riddle, he doesn't lie all the time, so you can't just invert it.

Here is a little bit of political correctness run amuck for you. At an annual train expo the man with an exhibit who is next to me had a train layout in a WWII theme. He was asked to remove all NAZI insignias and/or markings from his German trucks, cars, tanks, etc., as they might offend somebody.

Must have been a German railway scene?

Well, well, this all sounds familiar with the new Hobbytown store that opened during the winter near us. The owner contacted our club to ask if we would support him with setting up a layout and running trains there when they have some special store events. Sounded like a win, win idea for us and the store to promote the store, the hobby and our club. 

While I was setting up for their grand opening, a gentleman came over and asked me about his postwar trains/ transformer that he wanted to sell. I told him depending on the condition, boxes, etc determines the value and what he might get from the store. Without seeing them, I said they could be worth x amount of dollars but not until they are seen. Ok, I was set up, covered up the layout for the next days event there and left the store. 

While driving home in a small snow storm, I get a phone call from the Hobbytown owner screaming at me that I am not the one to speak to his potential customer about a possible purchase and that he might have lost a customer. He kept going on about cutting ties to someone that he gives one chance and then he cuts them off. I said nothing and said ok, you are right. I let him vent his nonsense about his 1 customer BS.

If it wasn't snowing on my way home, I would have turned around and went back to undo the layout, load it into the car and say "siyanora".  I don' t handle disrespect too easily as I was ****ed off that night.

I let it go the next day like nothing happenned and I ran trains that day with a few club members figuring we were there set up and could get some potential club members for the club. 

As far as I am concerned after that day, I and the club are done with this Hobbytown. Guess the owner wanted to show who was boss with his 1 potential customer but he forgot about my club with its 32 potential members who could have been potential customers. 

P.S. Same rule applies, he is done by the club as we have an association with a local hobby store that has been in business for a very long time and gives us the respect we deserve promoting his store and him promoting our club. I don't need Hobbytown as our club maintains a great relationship with the area show promoter who provides us with tables to set up a layout and run trains for the public there. I always get a nice thank you at the end of the day!