S Gauge FlyerChief Northerns have arrived!

Flyer 52 posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

Chuck K posted:

SantaFeFan posted:

This loco is Bluetooth enabled, designed by Lionel engineering in California.  The soon to be released LC App and Universal Remote will operate loco, this loco has all new electronics and 32 speed steps (not 16 like past LC/LC+) locos.  Lots of cool upgrades on setting the volume, firing the coil coupler, and dialog operations.  Just the beginning of what LC and LC+ products will bring in 2017! 

Bluetooth?  Neither the online product page nor online catalogue have ever mentioned this...

http://www.lionel.com/products...n-locomotive-6-47952

Was this a late addition that hasn't made it into the online descriptions?

Bluetooth is nice, but how about making it so one can use a Legacy Cab2 handheld in a reasonably seemless fashion with FC engines? 

Bob

The O Gaugers have been asking for that ever since the introduction of LionChief and Lionel has not complied.

Rusty

Which is why my wallet remains shut. 

Bob

My smart phone (or IPad/tablet) is both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth enabled. I wonder if Lionel or MTH(or someone's grandchild)  is developing an App that would allow you to operate both Legacy and FlyerChief, and DCS  from your smart phone or IPad/tablet. Or if this is even feasible.

Mike

i dont think one app would be feasible for all three. but multiple apps is most likely the future.

If im in the lionel board room im directing most R&D money toward App Control.  I have a real feeling that the chief system is the future. Think about it. all engines will come with a simple remote. And advanced settings can be accessed from a Bluetooth enabled phone. Legacy will be phased out eventually. I mean people fly RC planes and helicopters with their phones and us train people still use a remote....remotes are oldschool, just like transformer control. apps are the future. 

anyone played with this.  https://youtu.be/uVuu1D0GhNk  my 2 cents is to cease investing in legacy control. 

Kill me now...............

Greekchief - I think you hit it on the head, and I have legacy ...the thought of Lionel phasing it out is not pleasant, but I think you are right.  I am gunna have to jump into Lionel's wifi technology to start running this stuff with my phone and IPad.  

Mark - I know! I will likely get one in a few months.  I really took a beating from Lionel, seems like every year they make and deliver all the expensive product in December.  Even when I plan for it, it still hurts.  I dig the Frisco, I do, but I don't know if it will stick around long term, I have been pretty good about curbing my purchases based off road name (Frisco is not on the "approved" list).  UP, ATSF, C&NW and Milwaukee are what I am supposed to to be sticking too....like I said, I have a sickness....

Rusty - I spent a bit of time poking around when Flyonel announced this 4501, I did not find a O gauge version to look at, supper surprised that Lionel never did one in the past.  In a way it's kind of cool for S, not to often that we get something our "bigger brothers" in O don't have.  

Ben.  

Bob Bubeck posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

Chuck K posted:

SantaFeFan posted:

This loco is Bluetooth enabled, designed by Lionel engineering in California.  The soon to be released LC App and Universal Remote will operate loco, this loco has all new electronics and 32 speed steps (not 16 like past LC/LC+) locos.  Lots of cool upgrades on setting the volume, firing the coil coupler, and dialog operations.  Just the beginning of what LC and LC+ products will bring in 2017! 

Bluetooth?  Neither the online product page nor online catalogue have ever mentioned this...

http://www.lionel.com/products...n-locomotive-6-47952

Was this a late addition that hasn't made it into the online descriptions?

Bluetooth is nice, but how about making it so one can use a Legacy Cab2 handheld in a reasonably seemless fashion with FC engines? 

Bob

The O Gaugers have been asking for that ever since the introduction of LionChief and Lionel has not complied.

Rusty

Which is why my wallet remains shut. 

Bob

The is a universal control system for everything (except non "+" LionChief,) even DCS.

It's called "conventional."

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Bob Bubeck posted:

Chuck K posted:

SantaFeFan posted:

This loco is Bluetooth enabled, designed by Lionel engineering in California.  The soon to be released LC App and Universal Remote will operate loco, this loco has all new electronics and 32 speed steps (not 16 like past LC/LC+) locos.  Lots of cool upgrades on setting the volume, firing the coil coupler, and dialog operations.  Just the beginning of what LC and LC+ products will bring in 2017! 

Bluetooth?  Neither the online product page nor online catalogue have ever mentioned this...

http://www.lionel.com/products...n-locomotive-6-47952

Was this a late addition that hasn't made it into the online descriptions?

Bluetooth is nice, but how about making it so one can use a Legacy Cab2 handheld in a reasonably seemless fashion with FC engines? 

Bob

The O Gaugers have been asking for that ever since the introduction of LionChief and Lionel has not complied.

Rusty

Which is why my wallet remains shut. 

Bob

The is a universal control system for everything (except non "+" LionChief,) even DCS.

It's called "conventional."

Rusty

Well, yes, of course   ... but I own two of the previously issued conventional L-AF Northerns (and a bunch of Gilberts). My L-AF Northerns have been moded to yield satisfying levels of smoke and to operate very smoothly; and their RS are about as good as what one gets with FC. The sounds with FC fall far short of what one has with the Legacy locos (e.g., my Y3a). So, for folks like me, what's the point?

Lionel, are you listening?  

Bob

At this time I have not purchased any FC engines. The marketing decision for FC is good. Many people will buy engines or sets as presents. It is a big plus that everything is in one box, ready to run. I hope FC makes S gauge a more attractive choice.

My disappointment is that a FC engine cannot be given a TMCC address and then also operated with a Cab 2, or Cab 1 remote. I recognize the communications are different but it would be nice if Lionel made an additional device for LCS that could be separately purchased by Legacy operators to communicate with the FC engines. Most of the LCS devices cost upwards of $100 plus cables so the price point should be adequate to cover costs and be profitable. One of the posters on this forum, JGL, has already developed a similar Legacy to FC interface.

AmFlyer posted:

At this time I have not purchased any FC engines. The marketing decision for FC is good. Many people will buy engines or sets as presents. It is a big plus that everything is in one box, ready to run. I hope FC makes S gauge a more attractive choice.

My disappointment is that a FC engine cannot be given a TMCC address and then also operated with a Cab 2, or Cab 1 remote. I recognize the communications are different but it would be nice if Lionel made an additional device for LCS that could be separately purchased by Legacy operators to communicate with the FC engines. Most of the LCS devices cost upwards of $100 plus cables so the price point should be adequate to cover costs and be profitable. One of the posters on this forum, JGL, has already developed a similar Legacy to FC interface.

+1

Bob

I think all this conversation about making FlyerChief, TMCC, DCC, DCS, and Legacy work together is needed by a small segment of the overall market.  The problem seems to me that it would cost a lot of money for the development, production, and marketing for this technology compared to the size of the market that would actually purchase it.

I like and use Legacy plus I like and use FlyerChief.  I hope to like and use DCS. I believe that there is versatility enough and hopefully enough product using these systems to keep most people happy.

NOTINWI -  yeah I just bought into legacy a few years ago. love the system but not the cost. If you think about it versus modern technology, its horribly antiquated. send a signal from the remote to the base that transfers it to the track. Bluetooth cuts out the middle man. Bluetooth can probably do every function legacy can. Its just a matter of building up the system of boards and apps. I mean what my new car does with Bluetooth is crazy.    

My thought is it should be cheap to develop this system in that you could probably purchase or license off the shelf tech to make this work. Look no further than the dead-railers. Track will only supply power once again. (If your not dead-railing)  

BOB -  i completely agree the biggest failing of the Chief System for me so far has been sound quality. and that is purely because i have become accustomed to great sound from tmcc and legacy. 

Overall i think the Northerns are a step in the right direction. 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I think all this conversation about making FlyerChief, TMCC, DCC, DCS, and Legacy work together is needed by a small segment of the overall market.  The problem seems to me that it would cost a lot of money for the development, production, and marketing for this technology compared to the size of the market that would actually purchase it.

I like and use Legacy plus I like and use FlyerChief.  I hope to like and use DCS. I believe that there is versatility enough and hopefully enough product using these systems to keep most people happy.

You also hit the nail on the head. I will be very suprised to see if another legacy product is produced in S. I Love legacy but i have a sinking feeling that we wont see it in new engines. but again what do I know im just a dorky tax accountant. 

Greekchief posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I think all this conversation about making FlyerChief, TMCC, DCC, DCS, and Legacy work together is needed by a small segment of the overall market.  The problem seems to me that it would cost a lot of money for the development, production, and marketing for this technology compared to the size of the market that would actually purchase it.

I like and use Legacy plus I like and use FlyerChief.  I hope to like and use DCS. I believe that there is versatility enough and hopefully enough product using these systems to keep most people happy.

You also hit the nail on the head. I will be very suprised to see if another legacy product is produced in S. I Love legacy but i have a sinking feeling that we wont see it in new engines. but again what do I know im just a dorky tax accountant. 

I would have to agree.  The winds of product development seem to be blowing in FlyerChief's favor...  Particularly since the recent HO Polar Express will operate under Conventional, LionChief or DCC.  I expect the DCC code will be in following new Flyer FC locomotives

The real test will be if there is any new product development under the FlyerChief banner or will it boil down to series of reissued products like the Northern's.

I suspect any new Legacy Flyer products will be few and far between from now on.

Rusty

Not to toot my own horn, but I predicted this last year.  And not only did Hennings not receive many, but also Nicholas Smith - 2 local hobby shops.  Selling like hot Cakes!

Not good for me, great for the hobby

Well, I can't help but wonder if the popularity of the FlyerChief system is simply a reflection of the big gaping hole in the S gauge market.  Old school conventional (or even AF-L) is out there, expensive legacy is out there...there was nothing in between.  

I wonder if the popularity is not necessarily a reflection of a shift from the norm (TMCC/Legacy) but just a chance for the market to finally fill out in the center.  

The next few years will tell I guess.  

We STILL need a normal (non PE) RTR set - and I don't mean that goofy docksider set.  Put FC in the GeeP and make a set already! 

Ben

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I think all this conversation about making FlyerChief, TMCC, DCC, DCS, and Legacy work together is needed by a small segment of the overall market.  The problem seems to me that it would cost a lot of money for the development, production, and marketing for this technology compared to the size of the market that would actually purchase it.

I like and use Legacy plus I like and use FlyerChief.  I hope to like and use DCS. I believe that there is versatility enough and hopefully enough product using these systems to keep most people happy.

Small segment? Making FC/LC+ interface with TMCC/Legacy is becoming a major issue for O, too. 

Developing a form of relatively simple (and hopefully seemless) train control across the two platforms would be a win-win for all concerned. Lionel should be held accountable for maintaining some kind of universality across their two platforms. Legacy is not going away any time soon.  It is the control system for Lionel's premium offerings in both O scale and S (don't forget the lastest L-AF SD70s). I have taken delivery of one of the new Lionel Legacy Reading T-1s, which is (again) serving as a truly pointed reminder of how much better the most up to date Legacy locomotives are (at a price, of course).

I tend to agree with those who feel that FC will dominate new (and the more affordable) AF, but an occasional new Legacy offering is likely to be offered, too. To sell something to the likes of me, Lionel will have to ... and I know I am not alone in this. 

Have fun.

Bob  

I just had an email conversation with my contact at Lionel.  He informed me about the Bluetooth system, but said not to release the information.  He said the new Flyonel Northerns are ahead of their time and are the first engines to have that capability built in.  He said that the new catalogs will be out before my review of the Frisco Northern appears in the March/April issue of the S Gaugian.  I think even you skeptics will be pleased.

Also, Lionel believes that the Frisco is essentially sold out and there are just a few remaining engines of the other roads.  If you want one you better find one or you will be like the people who didn't order the second run Berks, Left Out.  

More like left behind when one ordered a Berk at the beginning of the BTO order window and it didn't arrive.  BTO is no guarantee of delivery.

Yeah.  I'm going to keep hammering on that.

Rusty

Rusty,

I was told by Ryan Kunkle, Lionel Diecetor of Production, today that the Northerns were't BTO. They must have been a good choice to produce by Lionel. 

Dream Mode <ON>

So... IF I was rich and had more space and all that jazz... I would do S scale differently than I tried before. This time I would go with a Hi -Rail approach: Flyer type wheels, Kadee 802 couplers... and have a bevy of Flyonel steam engines and AM first generation diesels on code whatever-the-smallest-rail-they-could-run-on sectional/flex track.

That 2-8-2 that Lionel produced was a little beauty.

Dream Mode <OFF>

Andre, just curious... what kind of radius / diameter curves do you think you would need to make a dream like that come true?

Hi Ted:

Well, my S scale inclinations previously didn't lean that way, so I would have to start over and relearn some "givens n' druthers" about such an approach.

IF I were serious about this, then I would take a serious look at those that pursue such an approach and see what they were doing. Two that immediately come to mind would be:

Brooks Stover

Carl Tuevson(sp?)

Brooks takes a very specific (prototype) and highly realistic approach, to the point of heavily scratch-bashing some of his equipment.

Carl has a much broader scope in layout philosophy and uses a more "RTR" approach with superb results. I am always impressed with his layout and equipment: It's very hard to tell whether or not that's Hi-Rail or "Scale".

From those two (and more that I would find/discover) I would learn what I could about their rail size, choices for switches (turnouts), radius, etc, etc, and decide what would be best for my "givens n' druthers".

The biggest deviation from my previous S scale philosophy would be:

* The Hi-Rail approach.

* Going back further from my 1960's era into the Transition Era.

However, moving toward those two elements would accomplish two things:

* Much more user-friendly switches (turnouts) are available. (Not so code 83/etc.)

* Some nice running, good sounding, good smoking, and reasonably available steam.

Food for thought.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty,

I was told by Ryan Kunkle, Lionel Diecetor of Production, today that the Northerns were't BTO. They must have been a good choice to produce by Lionel. 

Well, let's just say it's one thing to wait until the product is released (BTO or not BTO) and not being able to get one and quite another thing when one pre-orders early in the process only to find out your LHS's distributor got shorted.

And don't say "well, shoulda ordered from someone like Chuck Ro."  I firmly believe in supporting my LHS as long as there is one to support.

Rusty

I don't think they anticipated the demand again.  Last year the Berks sold out in a month, now, according to two local hobby shops, they didn't even receive their ordered allotment.

So the Milwaukee Northern I ordered last February doesn't exist.  S is very difficult to be in, although one of the members of North Penn S gaugers installed DCC into a 290 engine that I am modifying to a Reading G3.  Once you get to know people, S people are very helpful and sharing.

Rusty Traque posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty,

I was told by Ryan Kunkle, Lionel Diecetor of Production, today that the Northerns were't BTO. They must have been a good choice to produce by Lionel. 

Well, let's just say it's one thing to wait until the product is released (BTO or not BTO) and not being able to get one and quite another thing when one pre-orders early in the process only to find out your LHS's distributor got shorted.

And don't say "well, shoulda ordered from someone like Chuck Ro."  I firmly believe in supporting my LHS as long as there is one to support.

Rusty

And, let's not forget that Lionel shorted the numbers on the preorders for the Legacy SP and D&H PA sets last year and the DR&W passenger cars from a few years ago. Particularly, the SPs! Lionel needs to get their production numbers in line with their preorder numbers.

Bob

Why do you guys quit complaining about your local guys being shorted and call Charles Ro, or TrainWorld.  I know that Scenery Unlimited has a few.  The important thing is to have one of these great locomotives to operate.

Lionel probably wants these engines sold out like the Berks.  There is nothing unsold using up their resources and that of their major distributors/dealers.  This sounds like a great business practice to me.  Makes money for owners.

The days of going to a local hobby shop and looking over the new trains to decide if you want one are in the past. 

From my previous post:

And don't say "well, shoulda ordered from someone like Chuck Ro."  I firmly believe in supporting my LHS as long as there is one to support.

Again, this is not about wanting something after it's released.  It's about unfulfilled pre-orders.

If a company gets say, 1000 pre-orders and delivers 950, there's a problem.

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Why do you guys quit complaining about your local guys being shorted and call Charles Ro, or TrainWorld.  I know that Scenery Unlimited has a few.  The important thing is to have one of these great locomotives to operate.

Lionel probably wants these engines sold out like the Berks.  There is nothing unsold using up their resources and that of their major distributors/dealers.  This sounds like a great business practice to me.  Makes money for owners.

The days of going to a local hobby shop and looking over the new trains to decide if you want one are in the past. 

Gee, Bill. Since when is repeatedly shorting preorders a great business practice? Henning's has been in business as a very significant high quality Lionel dealer since 1939. Please stop trying to defend the indefensible. 

Bob

Hi Bill,

I think you are way out of line on this one.  I totally agree with Rusty and Bob that I support my local hobby shops.  Hennings (a national manufacturer/distributor of replacement parts) and Nicholas Smith are no small affairs.  I agree with Rusty that if I have to go to the big guys, that's the end of me buying anything American Flyer/Lionel new.

When I ordered my Berk last January and it was already out of stock - that was on me. And Flyonel should have seen the writing on the wall, that if you put out a good product in S, it will sell.  When I ordered a Northern in February and my hobby shop only gets a Union Pacific - that sucks.  Then I check with Nicholas Smith and they have NOTHING that doesn't bode well for the hobby.

With the economy finally kicking into gear, trains (disposable income) will begin to grow with alot of people seriously considering S - but won't if this crap keeps up.

I hope both Lionel/American Flyer and MTH are listening.

Francine posted:

Hi Bill,

I think you are way out of line on this one.  I totally agree with Rusty and Bob that I support my local hobby shops.  Hennings (a national manufacturer/distributor of replacement parts) and Nicholas Smith are no small affairs.  I agree with Rusty that if I have to go to the big guys, that's the end of me buying anything American Flyer/Lionel new.

When I ordered my Berk last January and it was already out of stock - that was on me. And Flyonel should have seen the writing on the wall, that if you put out a good product in S, it will sell.  When I ordered a Northern in February and my hobby shop only gets a Union Pacific - that sucks.  Then I check with Nicholas Smith and they have NOTHING that doesn't bode well for the hobby.

With the economy finally kicking into gear, trains (disposable income) will begin to grow with alot of people seriously considering S - but won't if this crap keeps up.

I hope both Lionel/American Flyer and MTH are listening.

Hi Francine,

The Nicholas Smith website is currently showing the Milwaukee Road Northern In Stock.

Mike 

Hi Mike,

Yesterday afternoon, when I checked,  there were none listed as in stock, today all are in stock.  Guess I have to take a trip to Nicholas Smith and get it done.  Still can't figure out how Hennings got shorted.

thanks.

I will ask Ryan about how this preorder system works between dealers and distributors with Lionel at the upcoming York.  You know that it could be that the problem is with the dealers and distributors cutting their order to Lionel worrying that people with cancel their preorder.

Also, remember he told me yesterday these engines were NOT Built-to-Order.

Francine posted:

Hi Mike,

Yesterday afternoon, when I checked,  there were none listed as in stock, today all are in stock.  Guess I have to take a trip to Nicholas Smith and get it done.  Still can't figure out how Hennings got shorted.

thanks.

Francine,

Hope you get your Northern!  Needless to say, I would call ahead and have them set one aside for you.

Mike

Flyer 52 posted:

Francine posted:

Hi Mike,

Yesterday afternoon, when I checked,  there were none listed as in stock, today all are in stock.  Guess I have to take a trip to Nicholas Smith and get it done.  Still can't figure out how Hennings got shorted.

thanks.

Francine,

Hope you get your Northern!  Needless to say, I would call ahead and have them set one aside for you.

Mike

+1

Bob

banjoflyer posted:

I'll throw some gas on this fire. I buy from Ro. It's just easier for me since I live out in the sticks. I preorder items I just gotta have (like the Frisco Northern). I always get what I order. Sometimes I buy from other online vendors and notice that some require deposits on orders refundable only if the item isn't produced. Nassau Hobby has been a great vendor for me but I only buy in-stock items. Same for Nicholas Smith. So, is it more likely that a LHS (brick and mortar) who requires a deposit will more likely receive all items they order? 

Mark

My brick and mortar LHS does NOT require a deposit.  I never dealt with one that did.

I've pre-ordered other Lionel (and MTH) products through my LHS without any trouble.  Only the Berk orders were shorted for me and at least one other customer who ordered several.  He told me his distributor got shorted by Lionel and he's never lied to me about such things.  He's an honorable guy and will admit if he forgot to order something.

I had a major cosmetic problem with my U33C when they came out.  He sent it back to Lionel for replacement at no charge to me.  Took 3 months for Lionel to come up with a replacement shell (if not the whole locomotive) but it was replaced to my satisfaction.

The gentleman whose Milwaukee Northern I posted pictures of earlier, received the three he ordered through my LHS.

Even if the Northerns aren't BTO, there's no guarantee that they'll be run again anytime soon to satisfy those folks that got shorted.  And the Northern's will probably wind up like the Berkshires: Shown in the following catalog with no indication they're sold out.

Rusty

I preorder from Charles Ro because I always get what I order and their price is almost always the lowest. 

I live in NJ and Ro is my LHS. I had a Berk on back order from Jan. And received it in Dec. liked the Berk and a week or later I ordered another. No problem.

again with the Northern. Had it on back order from Jan 2016 and received it in Dec. no problem. I also like the new Northern so I ordered another on yesterday.

received  delivery info from Ro today and I will receive tomorrow. No problem.

I not have the NYC northern and the one the way is the Mil.

As an accountant I'm gonna play devil's advocate. Big L decides to do a run of northerns. The accounting, sales and engineering Dept all work together to come up with a magic number for a production run that will be profitable. 

The dealer's and big L do not want surplus sitting on the shelves. Because the longer it's on the shelf the lower the profit. ($500 for a Y3 almost 50% discount). Now also think about oversaturating the market (not hard in S) if you build to many over time you devalue your products, because you have many still floating out in the ether.

Back to big L (in all honesty not as big as we think they are) they pick a number that will be profitable and hopefully sell out. Maximizing profit and keeping S alive to fight another day. 

Now when the order comes in and it's time to ship. You make sure to absolutely fulfill orders to your largest distributors first. Because the larger ones can F*** you in the future. The little guys wont because, well survival. 

In all likely hood we pre order but there is a difference from preordering before production commences and after. (Mind you we have no idea when production is because well the L has secrets) my sherlockian guess is for those left without a dance partner their hobby shop placed the preorder after production commenced, and/or, after the production number was unchangeable. (Please don't make me explain why you can't simply build more its too long and I have a cold)

You honor orders by date received short answer is if you want one you better order from some one who has it in stock now. 

Hope that kinda...Well it won't make you feel better but at least we kinda understand. If I'm not coming across to people I must apologise I have a cold and my NYC Northern just came in from Charles Ro. 

I also just looked and Ro is out of the Frisco but expects more in. So mabey those LHS who got shorted just have not gotten it in yet?

I think that you hit the nail on the head GREEKCHIEF.   Most people want the train companies run like the owners are in and for the hobby, but they aren't.  They have to make money and producing too much product that you have to cut to half price to liquidate is not good. Oops, the companies have accountants!   

Greekchief posted:

 

Now when the order comes in and it's time to ship. You make sure to absolutely fulfill orders to your largest distributors first. Because the larger ones can F*** you in the future. The little guys wont because, well survival. 

 

So, I take that to mean that outfits like Ro will stop carrying Lionel products if they get shorted on some items?

Somehow, I don't think so...

Rusty

No not stop carrying but they can make life hard for you believe me. Pricing product placement. Lack of customer support for your items. You have to keep vendors happy.