S Gauge FlyerChief Northerns have arrived!

And their may be another boat coming in so we're not even 100% positive the small LHS are S.O.L.  

I'm not trying to upset anyone but the bigger vendors carry more weight. With any companies ear.

I will post an actual northern review later as mine came in yesterday.

I have talked to a number of smaller dealers about Lionel dumping excess product a year or so after release.  When Lionel sends it to Charles Ro to dump at almost half price these dealers with left-overs of the same items get real upset as it kills them financially. It is better for the LHS places to sell all they get at full price instead of having left over inventory they can't move at less than their cost.

Greekchief posted:

No not stop carrying but they can make life hard for you believe me. Pricing product placement. Lack of customer support for your items. You have to keep vendors happy. 

Silly me....

I thought the purpose of being in business is to keep the customers happy.  An old IBMer once told me "Your paycheck may have the boss's signature on it, but it's the customer that really signs it." 

Without customers, you ain't got nuthin'.

Rusty

AmFlyer posted:

At this time I have not purchased any FC engines. The marketing decision for FC is good. Many people will buy engines or sets as presents. It is a big plus that everything is in one box, ready to run. I hope FC makes S gauge a more attractive choice.

My disappointment is that a FC engine cannot be given a TMCC address and then also operated with a Cab 2, or Cab 1 remote. I recognize the communications are different but it would be nice if Lionel made an additional device for LCS that could be separately purchased by Legacy operators to communicate with the FC engines. Most of the LCS devices cost upwards of $100 plus cables so the price point should be adequate to cover costs and be profitable. One of the posters on this forum, JGL, has already developed a similar Legacy to FC interface.

It would be nice to have a box that sends commands to FC engines that you could control from a Cab 1.  It would be better to have that than to have a universal remote that you can use to control all of your FC engines.  I still use a Cab 1/1st generation TMCC and haven't dropped the $325 to buy a Legacy command remote (only real benefit I can see would be having the ability to quill the whistle on my Big Boy--real neat, but not enough reason to part with over $300). 

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

Bob Bubeck posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty,

I was told by Ryan Kunkle, Lionel Diecetor of Production, today that the Northerns were't BTO. They must have been a good choice to produce by Lionel. 

Well, let's just say it's one thing to wait until the product is released (BTO or not BTO) and not being able to get one and quite another thing when one pre-orders early in the process only to find out your LHS's distributor got shorted.

And don't say "well, shoulda ordered from someone like Chuck Ro."  I firmly believe in supporting my LHS as long as there is one to support.

Rusty

And, let's not forget that Lionel shorted the numbers on the preorders for the Legacy SP and D&H PA sets last year and the DR&W passenger cars from a few years ago. Particularly, the SPs! Lionel needs to get their production numbers in line with their preorder numbers.

Bob

I agree, Bob.  What's the point of having a preorder period if you don't use the information to ensure that you build a product for everyone who ordered one?

I got a call from my local dealer yesterday and went and picked up my Frisco Northern and a few cars I had ordered. I have put about an hour running time on it and am 100% satisfied with the product.  It runs much better than the previously released Northern's and mine produces copious amounts of smoke. I was powering it with a 17B Flyer transformer producing 15 volts.  Nice looking locomotive and the paint and graphics are excellent!

I have two new northerns. I received one today the Mi. I test run them without the sound. I noticed a scuffing sound from the engine. I watched the engine and found that the wheels on the lead truck were not rotating. I oiled the axles. The front axle rotated but the rear axle did not. I lifted the wiper up a bit to relive the pressure on the axle. Now both axles rotate. But still had the scuffing noise. Removed the bottom plate and oiled all the bushings. Added some grease the the drive gear. Put all together now the engine runs fine no scuffing noise. Also my other northern same problem. Front truck axle one was rotating but the rear axle was not. Did the same thing lifted the wiper up a bit. Now both are running well. Check your engines for non rotating wheels on the lead truck.

I always read a new engine's manual closely before I run it to make sure I have it right.  Lionel manuals always have lubrication information.  I do lubricate new engines because I don't feel that they come out of the factory lubricated.  I almost never find evidence that they were lubricated. 

The traction tires are beefier than on the Berkshires. Not sure if this is an intentional improvement or a result of using an older design.

Rusty Traque posted:

Silly me....

I thought the purpose of being in business is to keep the customers happy.  Rusty

It used to be. Now the point is to keep the shareholders happy. That is a completely different focus than keeping customers and employees happy.

It is possible to have happy and loyal customers but unhappy shareholders. It is difficult for a company to have happy shareholders for very long if their customers are unhappy and not returning to purchase new products.

I would like the opportunity to participate with Lionel in an S gauge focus group if they were serious about improving their S gauge line and is profitability. Some of us have done this with other businesses like airlines when they assemble focus groups of their frequent fliers to get feedback and ideas.

It is becoming harder to be a Lionel S gauge repeat customer unless we just buy different road names of the same few engines. They make some money selling ERR boards for upgrading their competitors products but its too bad Lionel cannot bring more items to the S gauge line. It is great to hear the Northerns are hot sellers and apparently well made. It should help the case for more items.

Lionel has used a small number of Flyer people to advise them.  Normally small dealers.  It is pretty secretive and the group that has not been active for a couple of years.  I just happen to know two them.  You would probably know their names if I were at liberty to tell you.  They know the hobby well.  Like most of the people who write, here they too want more Flyer product types than Lionel is willing to do. 

The good news is that the 2017 American Flyer catalog will be out in less than 6 weeks.  We will soon know what new products they will be making for American Flyer in 2017.    

I collected American Flyer for 38 years before working for Lionel.

Before visiting corporate headquarters in Michigan, I called all the big time collectors and Flyer dealers that I knew and asked them what S gauge items they wanted Lionel to produce. There was not one shred of consistency in what they wanted. Everyone wanted something different and many of them contradicted or poo-pooed what the others wanted.

Some Flyer collectors might think that Lionel is not trying to please them, but the collectors themselves do not present a consistent, unified front.

Great Point Royboy.  Thanks for adding your experience.

good heads up on the wheels not spinning. mine were not. 

Greekchief posted:

The traction tires are beefier than on the Berkshires. Not sure if this is an intentional improvement or a result of using an older design.

Hmm. Can you tell if the inside diameter is the same as the Berkshire tires?  If so, I'll be ordering some of these Northern tires for my Polar Express.

they are to big for the PE and Berkshire unfortunately. 

Actually, I get tires for my Flyionel 06 Northerns from Port Lines Hobbies and Doug Peck suggests those he has for Gilbert Northerns work well.  They last longer than those of Lionel. 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Actually, I get tires for my Flyonel 06 Northerns from Port Lines Hobbies and Doug Peck suggests those he has for Gilbert Northerns work well.  They last longer than those of Lionel. 

+1. Doug's traction tires are excellent.

Bob

Hi, traction tires on the Berks. On the NKP the first week or two I went thru three tire replacemnts. I picked thru my tire assortment and picked a tire from the wide flanged diesel with the groved wheel. Smaller and thicker. I was able to stretch it over the drive wheel it slipped into the groove ok. Still on the wheel and running ok. I did this by removing the drive wheel assembley from the frame. Remove the bottom plate and the screw for the front truck. And remove the two hex head screws from the connecting rods. BUT before you lift the wheel out MARK the bushings as you them sitting in the frame. You than have the wheel and gear in your hand and peel the tire over the wheel. Also a good time to grease the gears. I just found this to be easier to do with the wheel and gear to be in my hand. Hope this makes sense to you al. Had no traction problems with the other Berk the C&O. Snow here in N.J. Today  good day to stay inside and run trains.

I will have to try it. I may even have some from portlines laying around. My PE got a lot of run time this Christmas from various kids, and it is in great need of some shop time. Along with traction tires it needs some joints re-soldered and a good cleaning from fingerprints. I don't mind letting the nieces nephews and other's handle it because it is more of a toy / gateway drug in my mind, that will hopefully get them into trains. Now if they so much as think about trying to grab any of my legacy articulated.....

Thanks for the information on the non rotating wheels on the front truck. I found the rear wheel on the front truck was not moving and gently reduced the tension on the electrical pickup, lubed all axles and everything is moving fine now!

Royboy,

Per your comment "Some Flyer collectors might think that Lionel is not trying to please them, but the collectors themselves do not present a consistent, unified front."

You will find with many companies that produce products that when they ask for new product ideas from 10 people they get 10 different ideas.  This is why many companies perform surveys.  They can come up with 10 items they would consider producing and then ask people to rank them.  Then they would produce the top 1 or 2 items. 

Now of course getting your customers to respond is the real trick.  Also getting people to respond who actually buy S gauge products is another issue.  My suggestion would be to include a survey card with each engine and card sold.  Say you can return the card with a completed survey for a free S gauge figure,  Limit 1 per family.  (This way you don't send in 20 cards).  People will send in the card to get the free figure.  The cost to Lionel in then nominal, and it should result in higher sales for new products.

The bottom line is now Lionel would have an idea what their paying customers would want from them next year.

--Rocco--

MTH used to include a survey card during their early days, I'm not sure how effective it was.

Lionel actually did survey S folks at the NASG convention in Milwaukee back near the turn of the century.  There were also some hopeful conversations going on with the reps regarding both traditional and scale products. 

Unfortunately, that was several management and employee changes ago and I suspect the data was sent to the dustbin of history.

Rusty

On the American Flyer Facebook page now, Lionel is asking what people are hoping to see in the next catalog.  Not quite a workable time frame, but a chance to post a response with what you want.  

Ben  

That's good to hear,but why not on this fourm? Maybe I'm alone but I don't do facebook

This forum represents only a small minority of S/Flyer enthusiasts as does facebook.

That's going to be the case for any S Gauge medium...gotta start somewhere.  

Ben 

NotInWI posted:

On the American Flyer Facebook page now, Lionel is asking what people are hoping to see in the next catalog.  Not quite a workable time frame, but a chance to post a response with what you want.  

Ben  

Kinda of a moot point.  The next catalog is probably already printed, bundled and ready to ship.

Did'ja notice the two guys that want Japanese steam?

Rusty

Yea, 

I just kinda shook my head at that...way to help the cause...

Ben 

Rusty Traque posted:

NotInWI posted:

On the American Flyer Facebook page now, Lionel is asking what people are hoping to see in the next catalog.  Not quite a workable time frame, but a chance to post a response with what you want.  

Ben  

Kinda of a moot point.  The next catalog is probably already printed, bundled and ready to ship.

Did'ja notice the two guys that want Japanese steam?

Rusty

Wow.  They don't even do Japanese steam in O gauge.  I thought they were coming out with obscure stuff when they did a rail defect detector car in O a few years ago.

sgriggs posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

NotInWI posted:

On the American Flyer Facebook page now, Lionel is asking what people are hoping to see in the next catalog.  Not quite a workable time frame, but a chance to post a response with what you want.  

Ben  

Kinda of a moot point.  The next catalog is probably already printed, bundled and ready to ship.

Did'ja notice the two guys that want Japanese steam?

Rusty

Wow.  They don't even do Japanese steam in O gauge.  I thought they were coming out with obscure stuff when they did a rail defect detector car in O a few years ago.

That's the dark side of asking folks what they want. 

Take a look at any of the "What would you like to see in the next catalog" threads.  Someone is always asking for something that really has no chance of being produced.

In reality for Flyer, the best chance is for new roadnames on something previously produced by Lionel/Flyer,  (Examples: Canadian National SD70's / ES44's or New Haven traditional PA's) or something Lionel's done in the O gauge line that they have all the research for, (Examples: Fairbanks Morse H16-44's or SD40-2's.) 

Anything outside of those parameters is very unlikely to be considered.

Rusty

Asking an unstructured question like "what would you like us to make" will not provide much useful information. If input is sought from the purchasers the questions need to be specific. Such as "we are considering production of two of these eight locomotives, rank them in order of priority." I doubt we will see Lionel do that. I also think Lionel has a good idea of what prototype model sells at a given price point from their O gauge sales volumes.

Somewhat off the point but I was disappointed to see Lionel did not include the FlyerChief logo on the packaging of the newly shipped universal remote. It indicates S gauge is not top of mind in the marketing department.

Mark I'm with you on all things said.  I like the flyer chief system. The Northerns are very fine engines. I now have them from Gilbert to TMCC and now flyercheif.  The flyer chief run the best so far

This has been an interesting thread.

If'n I was still in S... then as for "what to wish for Lionel to make", I would " wish" for a re-release of the 2-8-2.

Still say that Hi-railing (scale couplers) with Flyonel steam and reworked AF steam, along side some AM 1st generation diesels, AM-type rolling stock, and all of this on the smallest code RTR rail/switches the wheels will allow, could have been a VERY viable approach to S for me had I realized it soon enough.

I can't find the Facebook address.  What is the link?

Thanks 

The Flyer Facebook page is at:

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanFlyerTrains

There's also a Flyer do-dad link on Lionel's FB page at:

https://www.facebook.com/Lione.../?type=3&theater

Rusty

I don't think we will have to wait a few months for the 2017 catalog. Derek of Notch6 informed on the "when's the 2017 o gauge..." that the catalog will be out this month.  Lionel, I'm sure as in the past, will release the flyer catalog then too.

Ben 

Thanks Rusty.  First time I viewed Facebook.  Didn't join, just viewing.  

cocker posted:

Mark I'm with you on all things said.  I like the flyer chief system.

I am in agreement.  I have two engines that i outfitted with Bluerail bluetooth decoders with on board batteries and a gizmo to charge the batteries from track power. 

Brendan