This time in Spain, one of the Renfe High Speed Class 130/ Talgo 250 dual gauge consist went off tracks in a curve.
http://news.sky.com/story/1120...n-at-least-20-killed
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Horrible. 2 years in a row that July and trains just don't get along.
Tragic. At least 35 dead. RIP.
Unfortunately that number went up according to the article. Very sad.
Official casualty figures have not been released, but the head of the Galicia region, Alberto Nunez, said the death toll had reached up to 45 after he initially put the figure at 35.
Now, is this trainset like those used in the Cascadia corridor in the NW US?
Originally Posted by Dominic Mazoch:
Now, is this trainset like those used in the Cascadia corridor in the NW US?
Yes the cars are similar to the Amtrak Cascade...engine are different
CNN puts current death total at 56!
The trains in Spain do not glide switftly across the plain?
The latest i read this morning is that the train was going at twice the posted speed for that section of track. Engineer(driver) has been detained.
Bad deal. Very interesting to see emergency personnel actually getting passengers to safety or to the hospital.
Link to actual crash:
"Link to actual crash"
wow.
looks like the carriage behind the loco was the one to derail first.
Last I read they raised the death toll to 77, and the driver stated he was going 118 mph on a 49 mph curve. Big trouble for that guy.
Originally Posted by PC9850:
Last I read they raised the death toll to 77, and the driver stated he was going 118 mph on a 49 mph curve. Big trouble for that guy.
I won't go more than 5 miles an hour over the speed limits in my car!
Based on news accounts, it seems as if the engineer admitted to being at fault. If this holds up, he should be criminally charged. There's a nonsensical quote from the guy that "we make mistakes, we're only human!" A mistake is 5 or 10 over, not more than doubling the speed limit. What he did was criminal.
Does anyone know if this line has any type of cab signalling? I would have to guess that it does not because you can't just go double the limit and the on board system is OK with it!
-Ryan
None of those people had to die. Arrogance and stupidity led them to their deaths. RIP.
According to the latest accounts, it is 78 dead....and he was doing at least double the speed limit. The article I read said that the high speed trains in Europe use a GPS based tracking system, and if a train exceeds the speed limit, it it will shut the train down. Apparently, this train had a warning system of idiot lights and sounds, but no automatic tripwire.
Reports also say that the driver had posted on his facebook page a picture of a train's cockpit showing the training doing 200KPH (125 MPH) and bragging how he loved to do that, and hoped it would trip off cops speed radar and such....guy isn't some rookie, been doing this for 30 years. They have arrested him, and the black box will nail him.
It was reported yesterday that the section of track preceding the accident was controlled by an automated system but the curved section wasn't, it doesn't make sense why not
It was just outside the designated high-speed trackage. This was literally the first curve after leaving ERTMS territory. What's not clear is why the ERTMS signalling did not enforce a speed reduction before the train left the high-speed segment.
---PCJ
Originally Posted by RailRide:
It was just outside the designated high-speed trackage. This was literally the first curve after leaving ERTMS territory. What's not clear is why the ERTMS signalling did not enforce a speed reduction before the train left the high-speed segment.
---PCJ
I guess the ERTMS is the EU's version of PTC? Or Amtrak's version of it on high speed lines?
This will come as a major surprise, I know, but investigators have reported that the engine driver was talking on his cell phone just prior to, or at the time of, the crash.
Who woulda thought? 
Originally Posted by Dominic Mazoch:
Originally Posted by RailRide:
It was just outside the designated high-speed trackage. This was literally the first curve after leaving ERTMS territory. What's not clear is why the ERTMS signalling did not enforce a speed reduction before the train left the high-speed segment.
---PCJ
I guess the ERTMS is the EU's version of PTC? Or Amtrak's version of it on high speed lines?
Yes it is basically European PTC. The high-speed portion of the line had it, but the HS line was incomplete and the current end of the segment merged with the conventional line just before the 50MPH curve, which was equipped with a less sophisticated system that could only enforce speed limits at (what appears to be) wayside signals rather than continuously throughout the blocks.
---PCJ
Originally Posted by Allan Miller:
This will come as a major surprise, I know, but investigators have reported that the engine driver was talking on his cell phone just prior to, or at the time of, the crash.
Who woulda thought?
Guess the Spanish "FRA" does not have a non-csll rule like we do here. Or, if this guy really wants to break the rules.....
Originally Posted by RailRide:
Yes it is basically European PTC. The high-speed portion of the line had it, but the HS line was incomplete and the current end of the segment merged with the conventional line just before the 50MPH curve, which was equipped with a less sophisticated system that could only enforce speed limits at (what appears to be) wayside signals rather than continuously throughout the blocks.
---PCJ
I think the laws of physics imposed the absolute speed limit on the train! I sure hope this character spends the next 30 years or so in jail!
Even sadder, there was yet another train crash in Switzerland.
Originally Posted by Dominic Mazoch:
Originally Posted by Allan Miller:
This will come as a major surprise, I know, but investigators have reported that the engine driver was talking on his cell phone just prior to, or at the time of, the crash.
Who woulda thought?
Guess the Spanish "FRA" does not have a non-csll rule like we do here. Or, if this guy really wants to break the rules.....
According to the news over here, the driver was called on his 'work' 'phone by his control centre. He was being given information about part of his route, and was having to refer to maps and other documents during the conversation.
So although he was on the 'phone, it was work related, and he had not initiated the call.
Even though it was work-related, it's not the best move in the world to be speaking to an engineer of a high-speed train (or any train, for that matter) and requiring him to look at any other place than at the track ahead.
Anything less than that is gross negligence.
Gee, I wasn't aware that locomotive engineers used maps to plot their route. Does the dispatcher/controller say something like "Take a left at mile post 220, and stay in the left lane."
This accident is similar to airplane disasters Not one cause, but a sequence of events. Is it possible that future high speed rail could go the way of the Concorde?
I don't think it will go the way of the Concorde, as countries have been having great success and even amazing technical advances with high speed rail travel.
I think it's the mindset of some who work with it that needs to change. Having an Engineer look at paperwork while at the controls of a moving train is beyond stupidity.
I don't quite get why he was looking at papers anyway, since the train had a starting point, stops along the way and a destination. Any variations on that should be direct communication without having to look at a map. Trackage would even be handled by a central location as far as switching and so on.
I've only had limited experience with real trains, but I'll bet this practice is even handled more logically and more cautiously on our layouts than what happened in Spain!
If this is all TRUE when all comes out in the wash,I think the authorities and the "driver" should be held accountable if they were violating the rules of conduct when operating the train.
If this wasn't a violation of operating rules,then they sure need to change them.
I don't think high speed trains are going the way of the concord, that went away simply because it wasn't economically viable, it burned a lot of fuel and had limited appeal, plus it created a lot of noise. Any more then a major plane crash will kill air travel, a stupid accident won't kill high speed rail travel. Unfortunately, as with the Korean airliner that crashed in SF, human error and stupidity can never be totally eliminated. If this had been on a real high speed route, it is likely the train would have been stopped for going so fast.
It sounds like the problem here is high speed rail on the cheap. There is no way a high speed train engineer should be responsible for responding to color light way side signals. Forms of cab signals, automatic train stop and mandentory speed control go back to 1900 or earlier and were common by 1940. There is no way that train should have been able to get to that curve at the speed it was going regardless of what the engineer was doing.
Originally Posted by David Johnston:
It sounds like the problem here is high speed rail on the cheap. There is no way a high speed train engineer should be responsible for responding to color light way side signals. Forms of cab signals, automatic train stop and mandentory speed control go back to 1900 or earlier and were common by 1940. There is no way that train should have been able to get to that curve at the speed it was going regardless of what the engineer was doing.
That's just it--his train had just left the high-speed section and was on conventional tracks when the derailment happened. Now, in most places where this occurs, the PTC enforces a speed reduction before you leave the high-speed segment. Why this wasn't so at this location is something that'll no doubt come up in the investigation.
---PCJ
The Shinkansen will turn 50 years old next year, and has never had a major accident due to personnel error or equipment malfunction. The only accident was an earthquake-related derailment, but was still without any fatalities (according to the report, none were even injured!). The Japanese seem to be doing something right; I don't know what's keeping everyone else from catching on.
Aaron
Linked is a Bing aerial photo of the area of the derailment: (Google's aerial photo was taken while the high-speed line was still under construction, and I couldn't get the Bing image to display in the post)
The high-speed line is the viaduct appearing from the lower-right-hand corner of the image. It tunnels through a hillside, emerging on the other side and immediately merges with the conventional line (the sharply curving dashed line) beneath the highway overpass. The wreck occurred on the first curve right after the two lines came together.
If you zoom in further on the Bing birds-eye photo, you'll be taken to an earlier close-up taken while the high-speed line was still under construction--the conventional line was single-track, and not even electrified at that point, which might explain whatever signalling was in place at the location of the derailment.
The train should have been slowing down well before it reached the viaduct, in my opinion. This will no doubt come up in the investigation, among other factors contributing to the crash.
Incidentally, there is a story about an almost-similar incident that occurred years ago on the Northeast Corridor on the 'S' curve in Elizabeth, NJ. It had a speed limit of 55MPH that was only enforced by...engineers knowing the speed limit there and operating accordingly...until one engineer wasn't paying attention and took the curve at 100MPH with an AEM7/Amfleet train.
Miraculously the train didn't derail, the conductor pulled the air after picking himself off the floor and took his engineer out of service right then and there. The track involved had to be taken out of service for realignment and a cab-signal restriction was imposed on the curve limiting approaching trains to 45MPH.
---PCJ
