Scale Trains and ESU

Interesting.  Thanks for posting.  IMHO at least common format and "era" decoders ought to be interchangeable.  The use of a proprietary feature/function board strikes me as a bit "sneaky".  

Yes, but I'm not sure this is the proper place on OGR to discuss?  It will be interesting to see how the market place reacts to the move away from complete interchangeability of smaller scale electronics.

Chuck

Possibly not, but with ST in S and not likely to release Legacy/TMCC locos, but instead conventional and/or DCC (w ESU) potentially a topic of some relevance here.  

@PRR1950 posted:

Yes, but I'm not sure this is the proper place on OGR to discuss?

Interesting, but we are discussing Scale Trains in S scale and the idea of yet one more non-compatible proprietery system.  Were would you suggest placing this topic on OGF?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I would think since Tom opened this with the S, it should stay here. For my part I would like to see any locomotives when they may be offered, with the option of DC or conventional.

MTH offered with only DCC, they left me with no option.

Ray

@Rayin"S" posted:

MTH offered with only DCC, they left me with no option.

Ray

Which is why I don't care for proprietery systems... you're stuck with them and should the manufacture leave the playing field, you're really stuck.  Even with the Circle L, how many different systems and how compatible are they with the rest of model railroading?

The NMRA has a DCC standard and ESU is going around it.  So how will that effect Scale Trains sales in S?  I want to support their effort, I have ordered some of the new hoppers, but what will I do if their engines are only ESU?  I wanted to try Blunami, but SoundTraxx doesn't play well with ESU -- Great.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Any S gauge engines from ST are still a ways off. From what I understand Scale Trains S gauge engines will be DC with the option to add a factory installed ESU decoder for DCC operation. If DC is standard then it would also be possible to add ERR parts for TMCC/Legacy operation. I have not heard any plans for the wheels. Will there be an option for high rail with traction tires? Will the wheelsets be replaceable like the SHS diesel wheels?  By the way, if the engines use ESU decoders that almost certainly means they will not have smoke units unless ESU brings out a 5A decoder.

Since we are discussing S gauge engines this is the correct forum.

We are not talking as much about engines here as we are talking about control systems.  Please re-read the first 3 posts.  I should have suggested that this all belongs more appropriately in the Control Systems sub-forum.

Chuck

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Which is why I don't care for proprietery systems... you're stuck with them and should the manufacture leave the playing field, you're really stuck.  Even with the Circle L, how many different systems and how compatible are they with the rest of model railroading?

The NMRA has a DCC standard and ESU is going around it.  So how will that effect Scale Trains sales in S?  I want to support their effort, I have ordered some of the new hoppers, but what will I do if their engines are only ESU?  I wanted to try Blunami, but SoundTraxx doesn't play well with ESU -- Great.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I am 100 percent with you Tom

Ray

@PRR1950 posted:

should have suggested that this all belongs more appropriately in the Control Systems sub-forum.

Chuck

Hate to disagree, but if it went there we would lose the S scale content.  I don't think Scale Trains does 3 rail.

@AmFlyer posted:

Any S gauge engines from ST are still a ways off. From what I understand Scale Trains S gauge engines will be DC with the option to add a factory installed ESU decoder for DCC operation.

Since we are discussing S gauge engines this is the correct forum.

Tom, I hope you are right, all I know is the H0 people don't get a choice and they are not all in on the Locosounds or whatever it is that ESU does.  The thread on MRH forum makes me wonder about the future of Scale Trains and S scale.  I'm sure they will assess the market and go from there.  Still MTH and Circle L did not and went their own way which did not do S scale and favors by dividing us with different control systems that are not all that compatible. Yes, I know some people like this while others like that but a standardized system compatible off the shelf would really be good for our scale.

BTW, I don't get notification of new post to this thread since Rays from 12 hours ago.  Any guesses?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

The Scale Trains people are really smart and well informed. They did their research and market analysis of S gauge prior to purchasing the Showcase Line from MTH. I am sure they understand that the S gauge buyers are a different lot than their typical N and HO gauge customers. Offering only DCC engines eliminates about 85% of the potential S gauge customers. Offering a DC only version opens up a much bigger pool of S gauge buyers. Those of us who run AC track power with either conventional power or with Legacy can easily adapt a DC engine with no wasted costs. Its exactly the business model that SHS has used and AM is using.

No wasted costs is what I referred to with MTH, theDCS or DCC. whatever they were offering. Why would I buy power with a system that I don't have to rip it out and install TMCC🤔?

I am also interested in the Bluenami, with a rectifier and voltage regulator installed, this DCC board could operate a long side my Legacy/TMCC power, this is something I am excited about 🤗.

Ray

After my last post my thoughts went back to what I have done, I have a couple of A-B-A sets, one being EMD the other FA-FB-FA. These are converted to TMCC with Cruise, that can only be done with one unit being a dummy, on mine the Bs are dummys, so I would like to see dummy units offered.

Ray

I have an FA/FB set converted to TMCC/RS. The B unit is a dummy and holds the electronics, they have a wired tether. I have a PA/PA set with both units powered that was converted to TMCC/RS. Both units have the TMCC electronics, the lead unit also has Railsounds. There is no tether between the units. I run them as a Train with my Cab2. With TMCC, Trains can only be single digits so it limits how many Trains can be programmed.

I agree, they should sell B units and A units unpowered. If none of the Scale Trains engines have traction tires then, at least on my layout, it takes two powered units to haul an eight car passenger train or a 15 car freight. All of my AM engines that have scale wheels need to be double headed. It gets a lot more expensive to buy two of every engine.

@Rayin"S" posted:

I am also interested in the Bluenami, with a rectifier and voltage regulator installed, this DCC board could operate a long side my Legacy/TMCC power, this is something I am excited about 🤗.

Ray,

I bought a Bluenami to put in an American Models SD60.  Since it is an AC version (with a DC motor)  it already has a rectifier.  Could you explain why a voltage regulator is necessary?  Thanks.

Craig

Hi Craig,

The SD-60s set for AC power do have a rectifier but it is part of the control board. That board will have to be removed if you install the Bluenami. The Bluenami 2.0 is a 2 amp board designed to run on DC power at 12 volts. The reason I would need the voltage regulator is that I run LEGACY and the track power is 18.5 volts AC.

Ray

I will try to post a link that will help to explain all this.

@Rayin"S" posted:

Hi Craig,

The SD-60s set for AC power do have a rectifier but it is part of the control board. That board will have to be removed if you install the Bluenami. The Bluenami 2.0 is a 2 amp board designed to run on DC power at 12 volts. The reason I would need the voltage regulator is that I run LEGACY and the track power is 18.5 volts AC.

Ray

I will try to post a link that will help to explain all this.

don't ya just love proprietery systems?

@AmFlyer posted:

The Scale Trains people are really smart and well informed. They did their research and market analysis of S gauge prior to purchasing the Showcase Line from MTH. I am sure they understand that the S gauge buyers are a different lot than their typical N and HO gauge customers. Offering only DCC engines eliminates about 85% of the potential S gauge customers. Offering a DC only version opens up a much bigger pool of S gauge buyers. Those of us who run AC track power with either conventional power or with Legacy can easily adapt a DC engine with no wasted costs. Its exactly the business model that SHS has used and AM is using.

One thing I'm concerned with the DC model, is if they do it like SHS did, the engine will have a 21 pin connector to plug in a DCC decoder.  If I understand to problem with ESU correctly, their 21 pin connector is not compatible with other brand decoders.  So you would still be locked in to Loksound (whatever).

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Rayin"S" posted:

Hi Craig,

The SD-60s set for AC power do have a rectifier but it is part of the control board. That board will have to be removed if you install the Bluenami. The Bluenami 2.0 is a 2 amp board designed to run on DC power at 12 volts. The reason I would need the voltage regulator is that I run LEGACY and the track power is 18.5 volts AC.

Ray

----------

Ray,

That makes sense.  I forgot that the control board will have the reversing logic as well as the rectifier.  I use Legacy too but have Powermasters so I can keep the voltage at 12 volts (though it would be safer to have the regulator).  I have some bridge rectifiers and regulators from converting my passenger cars to LEDs.  I'll have to check if they are rated for 2 amps (since LEDs draw little power).  Thanks for your quick reply.

Craig

@Tom Stoltz posted:

don't ya just love proprietery systems?

One thing I'm concerned with the DC model, is if they do it like SHS did, the engine will have a 21 pin connector to plug in a DCC decoder.  If I understand to problem with ESU correctly, their 21 pin connector is not compatible with other brand decoders.  So you would still be locked in to Loksound (whatever).

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Cut off the plug.

Ray

Back in the day when I was converting S-gauge steam and diesel engines to ERR TMCC control and sound (when those S gauge boards were plentiful), I converted my ATSF SHS A & B unit.  Both had sound (no tethers, grew tired of those), but I programmed the B-unit to not sound its horn or bell.  The A unit had multi-color marker lights, etc.  As a powered pair they ran so strong and smoothly.  No matter what, ScaleTrains' S-Helper stuff should all have a great foundation to work with.   Don and Robin made sure of that.  

Here's a video of them in action (low res, 13 years ago).   https://youtu.be/eqDEyiXtA2g

@Rayin"S" posted:

Cut off the plug.

Ray

Well, yeah, but that would mean rewiring the whole thing.  The plugs are/were supposed to be standardized so you could plug in the decoder of your choice.  I am under the impression that the ESU 21 pin format is not compatible with the rest of the industry.  So it becomes similar to gutting a Legacy to run your choice of a sound decoder.  You end up paying a lot for electronics that you are just going to throw away.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Scale Trains has yet to state what they will use and when they will make engines,

So right now it is just BS and rumors.

Gunny

@gunny posted:

Scale Trains has yet to state what they will use and when they will make engines,

So right now it is just BS and rumors.

Gunny

Hi Gunny, just going by what they do with their H0 and N scale lines.

Did  you get to the train show yesterday?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Well, yeah, but that would mean rewiring the whole thing.  The plugs are/were supposed to be standardized so you could plug in the decoder of your choice.  I am under the impression that the ESU 21 pin format is not compatible with the rest of the industry.  So it becomes similar to gutting a Legacy to run your choice of a sound decoder.  You end up paying a lot for electronics that you are just going to throw away.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom, cutting off the plug on a DC unit is not comparable expense wise to gutting DCC or LEGACY. What is the cost of that plug?

Ray

@Rayin"S" posted:

Tom, cutting off the plug on a DC unit is not comparable expense wise to gutting DCC or LEGACY. What is the cost of that plug?

Ray

Ray, it's not the plug by itself that's the problem.  If I'm understanding the MRH thread correctly.  It's that you can't use another brand 21 pin decoder because of the way ESU has made theirs a proprietery system.  One would probably not have to cut the plug.  What SHS did was to provide a 'DC shunting' plug to insert into their DCC 8 pin connector so you could run DC.  I would imagine ESU would do similar for DC ops.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

The Scale Trains website states "DCC and sound equipped locomotives will operate on DC or DCC layouts. Some sound and lighting functions are not operable using DC." "DCC and sound ready locomotives operate using a DC power pack, and are DCC ready with a 21 pin connector." It sounds like the SHS style shunt plug is not needed.

If you have watched Shane's video about correcting their HO engine quality failures, the last 4 minutes of the video is about the MTH HO steam engine status. It is enlightening about how much harder and time consuming setting up just one engine for production has become than what was in their plan. They also talk about tooling that did not come from MTH with the purchase that now has to be designed and created. Plus the tooling that cannot be used because it will not work when DCC is substituted for the DCS system. Designing the electronics to incorporate a smoke unit is also taking time, because this N&W J is the first engine Scale Trains is making with a smoke unit. Steam engines and engines that smoke are a whole new product for them.

Scale trains has said they are looking at the changes needed to the S gauge MTH diesels to put in DCC in place of the DCS electronics. No comments about production plans or timing.

Mostly it sounds great Tom, I can't wait.  I do hope ESU will not be an albatross for them.  Or perhaps ESU gets on the compatibility band  wagon.  One problem mentioned is the NMRA has no standards for the 21 pin format.  Also they don't have the ability to enforce standards.  So maybe the future for DCC is non-compatibility.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Ray, it's not the plug by itself that's the problem.  If I'm understanding the MRH thread correctly.  It's that you can't use another brand 21 pin decoder because of the way ESU has made theirs a proprietery system.  One would probably not have to cut the plug.  What SHS did was to provide a 'DC shunting' plug to insert into their DCC 8 pin connector so you could run DC.  I would imagine ESU would do similar for DC ops.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom,

I was not understanding where you were coming from with your reply, I had never had one of the SHS engines with the plugs that you talked about. I guess all l have from the Helper Service are earlier production.

Ray

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Has anyone been following the thread from the MRH forum concerning Scale Trains use of ESU decoders?

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/...560976?&trail=25

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom,

Shame on me, I came into this conversation and did not even see much less read the link that you posted. I saw that this am and went there to find the conversation, I now understand your concerns with the DCC comparability.

I did not have any knowledge of how far the development with all the lighting features, been to much wrapped up in our clubs layout and the scale and high rail division/conflicts plus a show this last weekend.

Ray

@Rayin"S" posted:

Hi Craig,

The SD-60s set for AC power do have a rectifier but it is part of the control board. That board will have to be removed if you install the Bluenami. The Bluenami 2.0 is a 2 amp board designed to run on DC power at 12 volts. The reason I would need the voltage regulator is that I run LEGACY and the track power is 18.5 volts AC.

Ray

I will try to post a link that will help to explain all this.

Hi Craig,

This took a little longer than I thought it would but I did find the page I was looking for, now this is speaking of using a Blue Rail board on three rail AC but its the same thing I will be facing and I think you also.

Ray

http://bluerailtrains.com/running-bluerail-on-3-rail-ac-track-power/

@Rayin"S" posted:

Tom,

I now understand your concerns with the DCC comparability.

Ray

Ray, I think one of the comments really summed it up: "It's like buying a new car and finding out you can only use Firestone tires on it".

I don't think the AC engine from SHS were pre-wired for DCC, hence no plug, but I'm not certain that is the case.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Has anyone been following the thread from the MRH forum concerning Scale Trains use of ESU decoders?

https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/...560976?&trail=25

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

The discussion is getting interesting again.