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Ditto! 
- Mike
Buyers have come to expect certain electronics, sound, drive type, and cab detail features in Sunset / 3rd Rail diesels. One potential issue with an accurate RS-3 could be having sufficient space to put all this stuff in a model with correct size narrow hoods.
I think you may have misunderstood Bob's point about the interior room. The RS3 units have prototypically VERY narrow engine-room hoods. Thus, installing all the required electronics for 3-Rail command control, speed control, sound, and lighting inside a narrow hood would most likely be prohibitive. Any cab interior would be the least of the issues.
Right now there are not any well detailed or scale sized Alco RS3's on the market .
Well what are the Weaver models and K-line Models and the WBB just released model?
Interestingly I WOULD be interested if the Model is NOT a "cookie Cutter" model as other Mfg's have produced. I would like to see:
But,,,,,are the WBB SCALE? If their model is correct to prototype fidelity, one would only have to install the ERR TMCC electronics up-grade, assuming it will fit inside that narrow hood.
If an RS3 (and an RSD4 or 5 while we're at it) can be built to scale with all the command control, sound & smoke (IMO, you have to have smoke with an ole' ALCo RS-series diesel!!), count me in!! I sure have spent a lot of time adding details to the mass-marketed versions currently out there in an attempt to make them look more prototypical...
Well I have an early Weaver and newer K-Line RS3s. The Weaver is supposed to be scale and lack of interior room is obvious. The K-Line hood is wider and higher to accomodate the motors. You might be able to get motors and electronics inside if you used motors smaller than the ubiqutous RS385s. There are high quality instrument motors that could more than equal the torque of the Mabuchis but they could cost 5-10 times as much. There would be room for the new smaller electronics but the speaker would be very small maybe the size of what Williams uses in their NW2s for anyone familiar with those.
Pete
Maybe this would be another model that could get done on 2-rail orders? DCC wouldn't be a problem. Plenty of room. TMCC on the other hand... It would be tight I'll bet.
If they can make a trackmobile or pickup truck command control what makes everyone believe that Lionel or MTH can't produce a scale detailed RS-3 unit because of space constraints under the shell? Command control is not the issue or speed control. Its the financial investment by a manufacturer, finding a vendor to build it overseas to give the scale detailed product you seek and then once made the price point you the consumer would pay for the detailed product.
You might be able to get motors and electronics inside if you used motors smaller than the ubiqutous RS385s.
I would assume that 3rd Rail would be using a single motor horizontal drive.
I'd certainly go for a couple of 2 rail Santa Fe Zebra striped RSD-4 or 5's, if produced.
If they can make a trackmobile or pickup truck command control what makes everyone believe that Lionel or MTH can't produce a scale detailed RS-3 unit because of space constraints under the shell? Command control is not the issue or speed control. Its the financial investment by a manufacturer, finding a vendor to build it overseas to give the scale detailed product you seek and then once made the price point you the consumer would pay for the detailed product.
The trackmobile putters around with a couple of cars and the pickup truck hauls only itself. They're not expected to haul 10-20-30 or more cars at speed for an extended period of time so the electronics can use smaller, lower current components that take up less real estate.
That said, Lionel managed to squeeze Legacy in an S Scale U33C and it is a pretty tight fit. There's a little more room in the SD70. There's no real reason why it shouldn't fit in an O Scale RS. We're waiting to see how well MTH squeezes DCS in an S Scale F-unit. But also, S Scalers also don't revel in heavy aluminum passenger cars or die-cast freight cars.
Rusty
I've been able to fit a NCE408 DCC decoder and a SoundTraxx DSX decoder into a Weaver RS3 that has a dual tower horizontal drive (above the deck driveshafts), as well as the speaker with sound tube. It was not easy, but it is doable.
There was a thread last month about the definitive RS-3. I am just guessing, but I would think the used market is so flooded with RS-3s that Sunset might proceed with caution.
I can take them or leave them, but I have at least three, brass, and scale. I had a Weaver, and it was even better looking than the brass. Traded it even for brass.
Given that electronics goes obsolete in ten years, would it not be cheaper and more effective to buy a used model and have an expert install the electronics of your choice?
It would certainly be quicker.
There was a thread last month about the definitive RS-3. I am just guessing, but I would think the used market is so flooded with RS-3s that Sunset might proceed with caution.
I can take them or leave them, but I have at least three, brass, and scale. I had a Weaver, and it was even better looking than the brass. Traded it even for brass.
Given that electronics goes obsolete in ten years, would it not be cheaper and more effective to buy a used model and have an expert install the electronics of your choice?
It would certainly be quicker.
Bob2, I hear what you are saying above; however, the OP's original statement mentioned scale-sized AND well-detailed RS3 offerings. One of the big knocks against EVERYTHING out there--including the Weaver version, which may be the closest in size to true scale--is the lack of all the details that have pretty much become the norm on today's higher-end diesels.
Lionel's Legacy models, MTH's Premier line and AtlasO's Master Line diesels are all well-detailed models these days. There is no comparable RS3 out there. They're all sort of low-end, less-detailed models.
Just take a close look at the Weaver RS3 that you mentioned above, especially the pilots and hood ends. Cast-in brake lines, no drop-steps & safety chains, no coupler-cut levers, no class lights, no roof grab irons, etc...I can keep going! Sure, you can purchase add-on detail parts and dress up these stock units to make them look more prototypical, but not everyone has the skills, or desire, to do that. Some folks just want to open the box and run it!
The key point is that there is currently no competition at the higher end. IMO, there would be a market for a scale-sized, highly-detailed RS3 because nothing fitting that description has been available yet. The first manufacturer to offer one may actually have a good shot at sales success and profitability. My guess is that today's "Legacy/Premier-type" buyers would be the most likely candidates to purchase them while RailKing/Conventional types may be happy with--and continue to purchase--the less-detailed, lower-priced versions that are available today.
Sorry. I always thought the Weaver was a pretty good model. Here is the next step up - understand, I probably wouldn't know the difference between an RS-2 and an RS-3 - I am a 2- railer, and have managed to ignore whether the air hoses are cast on or not.
https://ogrforum.com/t...division-point-rs-2s
I think the effort folded - not enough potential customers.
atlas made a super detailed rs1 and it is smaller than an rs3. they got eob and smoke in it and it runs super. now with the smaller footprint of the electric rr system it should be easier to persuade atlas to do more.
Uh a correction on the rs1. There is no smoke unit in the last run although it was advertised as such. Certainly the first run didn't have the smoke unit
First run 3 rail Atlas RS1 with TMCC has a smoke unit as well as speed control. I have had one since new. Its a pain to fill the smoke unit, as you have to tilt the end of the loco upwards by about 30 degrees. But the unit itself works fairly well.
As Iron Lake posted it is a very well detailed unit, and runs very well.
Atlas RS1 Master series. This was an early issue that has EOB speed control and a smoke unit.
Weaver RS 3 with EOB speed control, no smoke unit, no interior cab detail.
The Weaver RS 3 tooling may have become Atlas Trainman offerings. The Weaver RS 3 offering is no longer shown on their website. There are Trainman RS 3 offering on the Atlas site that are similar.
Saveing as we speak to put down deposit for DP alco PRR passenger with trinphone and flying numberboards a once in a lifetime opportunity albeit not cheap but the pictures from E Lindgren persuaded me to pony up
Hot Water posted:..... The RS3 units have prototypically VERY narrow engine-room hoods. Thus, installing all the required electronics for 3-Rail command control, speed control, sound, and lighting inside a narrow hood would most likely be prohibitive. Any cab interior would be the least of the issues.
So, have the folks at 3rd Rail commented on this? Does 3rd Rail's horizontal drive system present a space problem?
This thread is two years old, and I know the subject of 3rd Rail producing a RS-3 has also been brought up since.
One, possibly two, 3rd Rail 2-rail CNJ toothpaste-striped correct RS-3's would make me a very happy man in life. Regardless of how many years it takes to get it done.
Jim
Scott needs orders/reservations for at least 1500 units to make a project viable. he has to get enough volume to keep the price down in a reasonable area.
There are and have been many RS3s made starting with Weaver and Atlas and both MTH and Lionel have down them. Admittedly, the detail is not as high on some. But if you are looking for a paint job only, why not just get some custom paitned?
I asked Sunset about GP7/9 which has not been made nearly as much as the RS3, especially in 2-rail, and the same issues exist with it. There just does not seem to be as much as potential market.
prrjim posted:Scott needs orders/reservations for at least 1500 units to make a project viable. he has to get enough volume to keep the price down in a reasonable area.
There are and have been many RS3s made starting with Weaver and Atlas and both MTH and Lionel have down them. Admittedly, the detail is not as high on some. But if you are looking for a paint job only, why not just get some custom paitned?
I asked Sunset about GP7/9 which has not been made nearly as much as the RS3, especially in 2-rail, and the same issues exist with it. There just does not seem to be as much as potential market.
More than 1500 SD7/9's were produced and sold by 3rd Rail? I never realized that.
I was eager to try these horizontal-drive, ball bearing diesels that folks seem to be thrilled about, on my to-be 2-rail layout. CNJ RS-3's .... or even GP7's .... would have been great.
In the discussion of a SD9 re-run in the future, I believe Jonathan mentioned the possibility of Conrail. Maybe I can move my era up 20 years. lol
EBT Jim posted:
Hot Water posted:..... The RS3 units have prototypically VERY narrow engine-room hoods. Thus, installing all the required electronics for 3-Rail command control, speed control, sound, and lighting inside a narrow hood would most likely be prohibitive. Any cab interior would be the least of the issues.
So, have the folks at 3rd Rail commented on this? Does 3rd Rail's horizontal drive system present a space problem?
This thread is two years old, and I know the subject of 3rd Rail producing a RS-3 has also been brought up since.
One, possibly two, 3rd Rail 2-rail CNJ toothpaste-striped correct RS-3's would make me a very happy man in life. Regardless of how many years it takes to get it done.
Jim
They get DCC and sound into N gauge models today so even narrow hood models should not be an issue of fit with the exception of cost, I believe Scott had to use a newer motor design to fit the SD7/9 project.
Hasn't the RS-3 been overdone? Atlas just came out with theirs a month ago.
Correction: We need about 500 reservations to make a diesel project purr.
Scott Mann
The Alco RS3 has never been done correctly
sdmann posted:Hasn't the RS-3 been overdone? Atlas just came out with theirs a month ago.
Correction: We need about 500 reservations to make a diesel project purr.
Scott Mann
Unless there are enough road names that have not been produced, only a reservation request would answer that question. for the serious collector/modeler/super drive enthusiast there is always the DP [3K+/-] to reserve.JMO
MR-150 posted:The Alco RS3 has never been done correctly
Right, except that the real issue is, the vast majority of 3-Rail folks really do not know that, nor do they care. The point is; how may 3-Rail folks are willing to purchase a model that is north of $600, even if it is prototypically correct?
sdmann posted:Hasn't the RS-3 been overdone? Atlas just came out with theirs a month ago.
Scott Mann
Heck no!! My comments above from over two years ago still apply. No manufacturer/importer has done a true scale-sized model WITH all the added-on details like your models have, Scott.
Yes, I purchased one of the new Atlas RS3's, but once again I feel like I SETTLED for a "representation" of an RS3, not a scale model. It is still not the correct size, it's missing so many details (or they are molded in...yuck!!) and the sound system is weak. Once again, I have a lot of customizing work to do on it!
Like EBT Jim above, I would purchase at least two CNJ "toothpaste" units in 3-rail with fixed pilots set up for Kadee conversion. Then, if you offered the 6-wheel trucked version RSD4 or 5, I would buy another pair of those.
I would also be very tempted by a proper D&H and/or Lehigh Valley version as well!
Thanks for reading my annual RS3 rant 
!
Well, that's the last nail in the coffin of a 3rd Rail RS3. Now, how about a Siemens S70 light rail set in Metro Transit
Hot Water posted:MR-150 posted:The Alco RS3 has never been done correctly
Right, except that the real issue is, the vast majority of 3-Rail folks really do not know that, nor do they care. The point is; how may 3-Rail folks are willing to purchase a model that is north of $600, even if it is prototypically correct?
Just curious now that Atlas is delivering the latest RS3s are they still using the over sized hoods [height] or if they did acquire the Weaver tooling are those the hoods that were used for this run ?
Matt Makens posted:Well, that's the last nail in the coffin of a 3rd Rail RS3. .....
How many times did they kill Kenny? But, he never truly dies.
Model availability aside .... I think there is significantly more enthusiasm in general for these old ALCO's than the SD7/9's. Their ornery appearance. Their prime mover sounds. ETC.
There are a lot of modelers in the northeastern US ..... and we REALLY like these RS-3's.
The western boys sure love things in Santa Fe zebra stripe .... like a RSD-5. Southern Pacific. ETC.
But, I'm sure the 3rd Rail crew has put serious thought into it. And ..... that's that.
Matt
hibar posted:
Just curious now that Atlas is delivering the latest RS3s are they still using the over sized hoods [height] or if they did acquire the Weaver tooling are those the hoods that were used for this run ?
Yes, HIBAR, Atlas is still using their own (original, over-sized) hoods on this latest run of RS3's. I have an older one from years ago and the new one that was just released last month and did a side-by-side comparison. They are the same.
As long as they sell out why mess with success, since they went back into O gauge Atlas has rarely made a change to an original model. A few noted exceptions would be the more recent F unit fuel tanks and SF ss panels, upgraded truck side frames and couplers just saying!
LIONEL got all of the Weaver Model locomotives with bodies made in the USA which include the ALCo RS-3 or RS3.
It will be one or two years before they get around to making LionScale Locomotives in Pennsylvania and/or North Carolina.
Andrew
Here's an overhead view of my RailKing RS3 (Green) and my Weaver RS3 (Blue):
Not a lot of difference in overall dimensions of the 2 as far as I'm concerned. I did install the wire fan screens (P&D) .
I know Scott would do them justice, but I'm not in for another RS3...now a RSC3 (or RSC2) is a different matter, but the only US RRs that seem to have owned the RSC3 were Seaboard Air Line and Soo Line, all others were foreign RRs. 2 more US RRs owned the RSC2.
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