sellers that make you think HMMMM.

Jim O'C posted:

There is a guy selling some nice looking stuff on the toy trains for sale Facebook page, but all of his photos are taken from a car's interior. Wondering why he would have to go out and get into his car to take photos of items he has for sale. He listed an SP Daylight MTH loco for only $100 but the photo showed the loco sitting on his center console. Thinking all of the worst case scenarios for his reasoning behind it.  

Just made me uneasy about doing business with someone like that. Had me scouring Ohio newspapers for news of recent train thefts. 

I went to "toy trains for sale" FB site. I see what you mean, the engine is MTH, says from Bridge Port Ohio. Checked out his user info, he joined ttfs about a week ago and lives in South Park Pa.  Yep, somethings don't make sense.

Definitely a seller to avoid!

If a seller refuses to take PayPal, insisting on cash or money-order only, I consider it a red-flag. It is a deal-breaker for me.

Matt_GNo27 posted:

If a seller refuses to take PayPal, insisting on cash or money-order only, I consider it a red-flag. It is a deal-breaker for me.

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

Jim,

Why would you even consider buying from a guy like this?  The best thing you can do is nothing. 

Dave

Wild Mary posted:

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

 That may work fine for longtime, regular contributors, but as the seller, you are not taking any risks. The buyer is taking risk, sometimes a big risk. Using PayPal offers the buyer some protection.

If you use PayPal and your PayPal is linked to your credit card, then the buyer has two layers of fraud protection. And PayPal is simple to use, if you can sign up for an OGR account, then you can use PayPal.

Do you have a name of the seller from South Fork?

Isn't this that con-artist guy again?

wild mary posted:

Matt_GNo27 posted:

If a seller refuses to take PayPal, insisting on cash or money-order only, I consider it a red-flag. It is a deal-breaker for me.

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

OK , I'll bite. What's your problem with USPS Money orders? They are :

• guaranteed by the US Treasury Department- just like the dollar bills in your wallet,
• clear your checking account the next day or you can go to the Post office and get it cashed on the spot- provided the counter has the funds to cover it.
• And never in my 40+ years of using USPS Money orders have I ever herd of them bouncing and/or had any troubles in cashing them in.

The issue with money orders and cash is the lack of any buyer protection. If you purchase an item via PayPal or a credit card you have some recourse if its not as described, broken or just never arrives.

If its a person/business you know of course a money order is as good as cash.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

OK , I'll bite. What's your problem with USPS Money orders? They are :

• guaranteed by the US Treasury Department- just like the dollar bills in your wallet,
• clear your checking account the next day or you can go to the Post office and get it cashed on the spot- provided the counter has the funds to cover it.
• And never in my 40+ years of using USPS Money orders have I ever herd of them bouncing and/or had any troubles in cashing them in.

What Scotie said, there is little buyer protection. It is essentially the same as mailing cash. Would you send an envelope stuffed with bills? (At least with checks, if the mail is lost, you can cancel the check.) [Edit to add: I just learned that you can get a replacement for a lost or stolen USPS money order. Details here.]

I am not in favor of e-[anything and everything], and PayPal is not without its problems—though I have yet to experience any—but in my view it is the most convenient and safest way for simple transactions such as buying and selling trains via the internet.

jim sutter posted:

Do you have a name of the seller from South Fork?

"new member" Mike Sinatra

What some on here don't realize, is that many and maybe even most of us have never met them or anyone that knows them.  Trust is something earned not something given or automatic.  I have only met a small handful of people from this board, and all seem like genuinely good people.  That said, most people selling here I do not know and have no frame of reference for other than this forum.  I have seen it on other forums in RC were longtime trust worthy people all of the sudden did others wrong.

So for me like some have said, it's PayPal or nothing, and as a normal transaction, not friends and family where the buyer protection is thrown out.  I have sold on forums for over 15 years using PayPal, and if I can't deal with the 3% fee (which is how PayPal is able to stay in business) then I don't belong selling on the internet.

As for checks, not only not offering protection they are also one of the most non-secure forms of payment and ripe with fraud.

david1 posted:

Jim,

Why would you even consider buying from a guy like this?  The best thing you can do is nothing. 

Dave

 

haven't considered buying anything from him, BUT, he has some desirable items at fairly cheap prices and I was merely warning other shoppers and maybe alerting train shop owners in the area that might be missing some inventory. $100 for an MTH rail king SP daylight loco is super cheap, although I don't collect post war pieces.

I honestly don't care PayPal or Money Order--whatever. But just to correct one thing, money orders have been subject to nationwide fraud at least once. About 15 years ago counterfeit MOs began appearing in large numbers. The PO actually took MOs off the market briefly until they could re-print new ones with a non-counterfeitable thread embedded in the paper. eBay used this fraud as an excuse to go all PayPal (which they ultimately purchased). You used to be able to select "Postal Money Order" as a method of payment on eBay. But when the counterfeit thing hit, that went away. Also, the one time I ever went back to the PO to get an MO refunded, it took them over 2 months to "process the paperwork"! But in the long run, one instance of fraud over the 20 years I have been BSing (that's "buying and selling" to you!) is a pretty good record.

One other note I would add is that some hobby communities have different track records for fraud and deceit. The ham radio guys are as trustworthy as the day is long. You can ship the item without waiting for payment. If he says it's on the way, then it's on the way. OTOH, the musician community is as unreliable and untrustworthy as could possibly be imagined. You can never deal with musicians as buyer or seller without having some kind of problem. They are a squirrely bunch.

I am new to the train thing so I can't really say. I did quickly learn my lesson about TRAINZ at a local train show and I have avoided dealing with them again. But this OGR Forum community seems rock solid to me. I have never had a problem here. 

Don Merz

As a seller, does Paypal  offer me any protection when an unscrupulous buyer lies and claims bad product?

I buy from  OGR and O scale yard sale and always offer USPO money order.  Never a problem.  I also request a USPO money order.  A USPO money  order is as good as cash.

When I get a USPO MO I ship the same day.

Check with your bank, if, as a bad person you go to your bank and falsely claim fraud you can trigger a charge back to the sellers bank.   EVEN AFTER THE CHECK "CLEARS". 

The only way to cut that string is to take the check to that buyers bank and cash it outright.

It can get drug out and then money/product is tied up for a long time over a comparative nothing amount of sale.

Get burnt once or twice, go through the legal hassle, then you may agree with me.  Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

My life is too busy to fool around with anything other than cash or USPO M.O.

Two words:

Caveat emptor.

And that's directed to the initial question about buying trains under what appears to be suspicious circumstances. 

wild mary posted:

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

That's pretty much the way I do things as well. I don't do PayPal, and prefer checks, although I also accept money orders. If the buyer is a forum regular or someone I know, I tend to ship the day the check arrives, or often enough even earlier than that.

wild mary posted:

Matt_GNo27 posted:

If a seller refuses to take PayPal, insisting on cash or money-order only, I consider it a red-flag. It is a deal-breaker for me.

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

Yes Nick, but you have been on the forum for a while and are a known quantity. You get a pass. 

George

Allan Miller posted:

wild mary posted:

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

That's pretty much the way I do things as well. I don't do PayPal, and prefer checks, although I also accept money orders. If the buyer is a forum regular or someone I know, I tend to ship the day the check arrives, or often enough even earlier than that.

You, we need to watch out for Allan! 

George

I bought a train once from a guy on eBay, and since he was in Chicago, I asked for local pick-up. I went down to the South Side of Chicago to a neighborhood near some rough parts. I picked up the train in an original box. He had a stack of other boxes in his living room and offered me some other trains. He seemed to know what went together but didn't seem like a train enthusiast. I wondered where those trains came from... However, he was at least selling them out of a house and they were older stock items. So, maybe he inherited them.

If he was selling them out of his car, I would be wary. Maybe he was evicted... However, Mike Sinatra seems a little too made-up to me...

George

Allan Miller posted:

wild mary posted:

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

That's pretty much the way I do things as well. I don't do PayPal, and prefer checks, although I also accept money orders. If the buyer is a forum regular or someone I know, I tend to ship the day the check arrives, or often enough even earlier than that.

Allan—and Wild Mary, too—I'm curious, if you don't mind me asking, why don't you do PayPal? Did you you have a bad experience? Did you hear a horror story? Or are you wary of linking it to your bank account or credit card?

Tom Tee, have you had a buyer claim bad product and lost your money through PayPal? Did you ask for photos of the damage and/or ask that he return the item?

—Matt

I personally use pp which is connected to my debit card. I few yrs back I purchased an old buddy seat for an early Harley. The seller said he wanted a m.o. I paid the seller with a postal m.o. A week later I contacted the seller, he claims he never got the m.o., I waited several week til usps could track the m.o. I found out it was cashed a few days after I mailed it. Long story short I contacted the seller, let him know the m.o. was cashed. After a few more emails, he was quick to give me a full refund to my pp. 

I personally believe he ripped others off using m.o. payment and had plans to rip me off.

I met him at a local McDonalds yesterday and bough a bunch of stuff from him.   Said he buys stuff from estate sales and shops going out of business.  Keeps it all in a trailer he pulls behind his car.  Great bargains! 

-Greg

TexasSP posted:

As for checks, not only not offering protection they are also one of the most non-secure forms of payment and ripe with fraud.

Not only that but it's a pain in the rear to have to physically go to the bank to deposit them and then wait for the check to clear.  This is just my opinion.

-Greg

Interesting that Allan doesn't do PayPal...when it was imposed l found it way too invasive and did a lot less buying, going to MO's and not uslng checks.  If somebody DEMANDS Paypal, l rethink how badly l want the item, and either delete, or ask a friend who will do PayPal to pay and l reimburse.  I have had no problems with MO's but now only use the USPS ones.

I admit that I haven't read every word of every answer, but to the original question about the pictures in his car, perhaps his wife through him out, and He's living in his car.  

wild mary posted:

Matt_GNo27 posted:

If a seller refuses to take PayPal, insisting on cash or money-order only, I consider it a red-flag. It is a deal-breaker for me.

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

Just curious as to why you only do checks. I personally won't take checks. ( theres to many places that will take checks out there no matter who it's from)  You have backing with paypal. Checks or cash only are red flags to me. ( that includes money orders )

This sounds like a guy who is living out of his car. And probably uses something like McDonalds hot spots etc. Or Libraries 

johnstrains posted:

Two words:

Caveat emptor.

And that's directed to the initial question about buying trains under what appears to be suspicious circumstances. 

Exactly.  Keep in mind the added personal and identity theft risk if you're dealing with an unknown seller AND you pay with personal check.  By giving a personal check, you provide your name, address, sometimes phone number, but most importantly you give a stranger your bank account number and routing numbers.  With just the bank name, account and routing numbers any person can order replacement checks from a variety sources with the same or new name and a new address for your personal account and have them shipped to the new address.  You would never know, unless you monitored your account on a daily basis before some of those checks cleared out your account.

Sure, in the end your bank will likely reimburse your account and set up a new account, but that takes time and will likely be a continued personal headache to clean up the potential aftermath.

I have been selling here for many years and have mostly done check or money order, I don't like paypal because I don't want to give my bank info to anyone, I had my account hacked and it cost me big time So I just ask for check or money order, I have never been stiffed by anyone and I feel it is the best way and I try to make them feel at ease with e-mails and tracking numbers for there stuff.  I know people may feel that they have no protection if they don't use paypal, its just not for me

rtraincollector posted:

wild mary posted:

Matt_GNo27 posted:

If a seller refuses to take PayPal, insisting on cash or money-order only, I consider it a red-flag. It is a deal-breaker for me.

As a seller I only do checks.  If it's a regular on the forum I'll ship as soon as I have an address.  If I don't recognize the buyer I wait until the check clears.  As a buyer I'll only do checks.  I don't do any business that involves PayPal or money orders.  It's that simple.

Just curious as to why you only do checks. I personally won't take checks. ( theres to many places that will take checks out there no matter who it's from)  You have backing with paypal. Checks or cash only are red flags to me. ( that includes money orders )

This sounds like a guy who is living out of his car. And probably uses something like McDonalds hot spots etc. Or Libraries 

What about taking checks, cashing them, then shipping the trains after the check is cashed?

fl9turbo2 posted:

I have been selling here for many years and have mostly done check or money order, I don't like paypal because I don't want to give my bank info to anyone, I had my account hacked and it cost me big time So I just ask for check or money order, I have never been stiffed by anyone and I feel it is the best way and I try to make them feel at ease with e-mails and tracking numbers for there stuff.  I know people may feel that they have no protection if they don't use paypal, its just not for me

I have a separate checking account w/debit card just for purchasing on the internet. That way all transactions are away from my regular checking account.

Seems I heard of a train store robbed in PA a few years ago... it was posted here on OGR, I just don't recall the name.  He could be finally unloading some goods...

I paid for three items from a forum member, not F&F, a few years ago with PayPal. I only received two items and the seller went quiet. Filed a claim with PayPal and they negotiated a refund from the seller by a particular date. That day came with no refund and PayPal notified me that the matter was considered closed before I had a chance to notify them! They then had the nerve to send me a survey asking how they handled the process! 

I dont use checks for the most part and do not accept them unless I know the person on a very personal level.  Try finding a dealer at a train show that will accept a check, even in person, good luck with that.  But, most take paypal, even at shows, or have the little part that plugs into thier smart phone that you can swipe your card.   For online, its paypal other than a couple guys I deal with on a regular basis that I will sometimes send a money order if my train funds are in cash form.  Obviously if meeting someone in person off FB or at train shows, cash is king!   And its always, buyer beware, no mater where we buy our trains.      Mike the Aspie

Jim,

How about these on the OGR FOR SALE Forum which are this member's only listings?

8/2 PRB brass DRGW set $2750

9/6 Samhongsa WP ABBA $2400

9/25 Overland Magellan $695.

John

Volphin posted:

Seems I heard of a train store robbed in PA a few years ago... it was posted here on OGR, I just don't recall the name.  He could be finally unloading some goods...

I think that was English's Model Railroad Supply in Montoursville, PA. and Ed's near Lewistown, PA

OGR Forum thread

fl9turbo2 posted:

I have been selling here for many years and have mostly done check or money order, I don't like paypal because I don't want to give my bank info to anyone, I had my account hacked and it cost me big time So I just ask for check or money order, I have never been stiffed by anyone and I feel it is the best way and I try to make them feel at ease with e-mails and tracking numbers for there stuff.  I know people may feel that they have no protection if they don't use paypal, its just not for me

You can set up a separate bank account to do paypal transactions only  and keep just enough in it to cover purchases.

Steve

l don't use pay pal and have recently began using the Mercari site to sell trains & other things on. they act as a broker, charge 10% of sale price, provide me with shipping label.  funds are direct deposit into my secondary bank account. full seller protection, no worry about MO's, pay pal, checks. they deal with it and l don't have to worry about  it. when things sell, l just box it up, label it and go by post office or fedex to ship, the money is deposited in my account after delivery is confirmed.