Sensor Track And TMCC Engines In The Era Of The Sensor Car

The sensor track only sends out Legacy commands unless as you found out you make a recording.  The sensor car was primarily made for older Legacy engines with the added ability to do a TMCC recording.  The limiting factor here isn't the car but the sensor track.

I'd rather just reprogram my sensor car than buy 12 of them.

Marty,

Thanks for confirming this for me.  It's a pity they didn't allow for the TMCC commands, particularly if they foresaw offering the sensor car eventually.  If they wanted to push you to upgrade the board in your TMCC engine to a Legacy board then that might have explained it and I'd have grudgingly accepted that more modest upgrade cost.  But since I'm not aware of Legacy aftermarket boards, but rather just TMCC ones, trying to push me to buy entirely new models of engines I already have now is just unconscionable.  

Legacy commands have an extra bit in the code to enable more features than TMCC. And all the "canned" commands for the sensor track are Legacy, so they can't for example blow the horn on a TMCC engine. You have to program that with "record" for TMCC operations. It's not because of the sensor car, it's just a sort of trigger. It's the sensor track preprogrammed commands that are Legacy and won't work with a TMCC item. If they wanted to support TMCC equally with Legacy, the sensor track would have two sets of preprogrammed responses.

I think that's it...

I have a sensor car programmed to my TMCC Challenger and simply did a TMCC recording on the sensor track and it runs great. I then tried another sensor track to record one Legacy engine run sequence and then a start and run for the Challenger with the other sensor car. It worked great so now I have to really study the recording procedures to run them. Also, it is cool to see non infared sensor engines now show up on the iPad LCS app during train running.

I have a bit of a kludged solution to this problem to offer:

Assuming I understand correctly, the sensor track is working as intended, when the sensor car passed by it sends out the signals to blow the whistle, but it sends out the Legacy command, which TMCC engines can not understand.  

It may not be worth the trouble, but I believe one could build a small add-on that would plug into the Legacy base which would look for the legacy whistle command, and when it sees it, would spit back out the TMCC command.  The components would cost about $5 shipped out of China, and the programing could be done fairly quickly by modifying code I already have written.  

If this seems like something worth trying, let me know.  

JGL

What would be cool is to be able to expand that concept a little to do more than simply toot the whistle.  Specifically, it would be really cool to be able to change speeds on the locomotive triggered by the sensor track. 

A recording will do that.  But you already knew that.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

What would be cool is to be able to expand that concept a little to do more than simply toot the whistle.  Specifically, it would be really cool to be able to change speeds on the locomotive triggered by the sensor track. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

What would be cool is to be able to expand that concept a little to do more than simply toot the whistle.  Specifically, it would be really cool to be able to change speeds on the locomotive triggered by the sensor track. 

Not having a legacy set or sensor track/car, this is all going to be theory based on what I know about the system and the information published in the LCS-LEGACY-Protocol-Spec-v1.21 that I have.  

That said, I don't see any reason that a micro-controller would not be able to read incoming data in the Legacy spec and output TMCC equivalent commands back into the Base.  With speed commands, however, I'm unsure if any, or all of the TMCC engines out there can read TMCC's absolute speed commands, or if they will only respond to relative speed commands.  In any case it should be possible for the device to remember what the last speed issued was, and compute how many steps to adjust to move at the desired speed.  A bit of coding work for all that, but nothing that seems too difficult.  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

I have a bit of a kludged solution to this problem to offer:

Assuming I understand correctly, the sensor track is working as intended, when the sensor car passed by it sends out the signals to blow the whistle, but it sends out the Legacy command, which TMCC engines can not understand.  

It may not be worth the trouble, but I believe one could build a small add-on that would plug into the Legacy base which would look for the legacy whistle command, and when it sees it, would spit back out the TMCC command.  The components would cost about $5 shipped out of China, and the programing could be done fairly quickly by modifying code I already have written.  

If this seems like something worth trying, let me know.  

JGL

Could this be done with an Arduino?  That would open up a lot of possibilities for sure.

Gpritch posted:

Could this be done with an Arduino?  That would open up a lot of possibilities for sure.

An arduino is exactly what I had in mind, but any one of numerous other micro-controllers could work for someone more familiar with programing them.  You can get a Nano clone for less than $3, and an RS232 module for under a buck.  I would probably start off using a Mega2560 for testing, because the extra serial ports make trouble shooting much easier, however.  

JGL

Without commenting on the specifics at hand, note that in order to introduce a serial device into a Layout Control System installation, you must do so via an LCS SER2 module. It won't work to patch your serial processor in between the command base and the first device in the LCS chain.

I'm about 99.88% sure that any TMCC locomotive recognizes absolute TMCC speed steps.  I've never seen or heard of one that doesn't.

Railsounds posted:

Without commenting on the specifics at hand, note that in order to introduce a serial device into a Layout Control System installation, you must do so via an LCS SER2 module. It won't work to patch your serial processor in between the command base and the first device in the LCS chain.

I understand that Legacy commands can only be introduced through the SER2 or LCS Wifi devices, but am still unclear if out-going Legacy commands appear on Base's output in a readable format.  In either case, doesn't one need a SER2 or LCS Wifi to use the sensor tracks in the first place?  

JGL

>In either case, doesn't one need a SER2 or LCS Wifi to use the sensor tracks in the first place?  

No. Any one LCS component, a command base and the LCS db9 cable and power supply is the minimum valid configuration.  In other words, neither a SER2 or LCS Wifi is required to use a SensorTrack.

The SER2 is required for running any other serial devices like TPCs etc. I know that's not part of the thread, but it gets in the way when I said to someone, a sensor track, and power supply, this is all you need.

Yes, that's true. If you already have other devices connected to your command base serial port, and want to start adding LCS components, you will require an SER2 to re-connect your older serial devices. But my previous comment is also true--neither an SER2 nor an LCS WiFi is *required* in order to use a SensorTrack.

JohnGaltLine posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

What would be cool is to be able to expand that concept a little to do more than simply toot the whistle.  Specifically, it would be really cool to be able to change speeds on the locomotive triggered by the sensor track. 

Not having a legacy set or sensor track/car, this is all going to be theory based on what I know about the system and the information published in the LCS-LEGACY-Protocol-Spec-v1.21 that I have.  

That said, I don't see any reason that a micro-controller would not be able to read incoming data in the Legacy spec and output TMCC equivalent commands back into the Base.  With speed commands, however, I'm unsure if any, or all of the TMCC engines out there can read TMCC's absolute speed commands, or if they will only respond to relative speed commands.  In any case it should be possible for the device to remember what the last speed issued was, and compute how many steps to adjust to move at the desired speed.  A bit of coding work for all that, but nothing that seems too difficult.  

JGL

This is exactly what I was hoping somebody would offer.   Yes you can make a recording but that "dumbs down" the sensor track.   The recording is then for a TMCC horn or bell or whatever.  And if you change the sensor track action you have to change the recording.   You have a number of preprogrammed actions already built in.  It would be fantastic for those of us with more TMCC than Legacy if there was a device we could plug into a SER2 that would basically allow us to set any of the various pre programmed actions into the sensor track (change them as well) and then have those actions "caught" and resent as correct TMCC commands based on the sensor car that went over the sensor track.  That way the sensor cars would be great compliments not just to Legacy engines before they had transmitters but all TMCC engines that NEVER had transmitters.   This would basically have me buying a sensor car (albeit probably waiting to be able to make them all different) for every one of my TMCC engines.   

Well, it's fairly easy to pop a different shell onto the sensor car, so if you can find a Lionel scale car that suits you for a specific consist, you can do that now.  Of course, we just have to come up with the little box that does the translation...

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 Of course, we just have to come up with the little box that does the translation...

And if you do, I'll promptly place an order!  

Don't jump too fast, you haven't heard the price yet.

Just remember the little box may not work on all TMCC engines unless there is a way to address the TMCC boards on Atlas engines. I initially tried to make the sensor car work with an Atlas TMCC, yes, and older one, an the sensor car did not like it. The sensor car kept changing the engine setup to Legacy from TMCC which messed up controls. Just my experience.

Well, I'd be happy to putz around with such a translator box, if anyone out there wants to lend out everything needed to test everything.  (Legacy 990 set, sensor track, sensor car, and maybe a SER2.)  

That said there may be a simpler route one could take, and certainly less expensive.  Rather than using the sensor car/track combo for TMCC engines, one could build their own sensor system, using either IR or RFID to uniquely identify a passing engine, then inject TMCC commands to the base without need to decode any legacy instructions.  

JGL

Captaincog posted:

Just remember the little box may not work on all TMCC engines unless there is a way to address the TMCC boards on Atlas engines. I initially tried to make the sensor car work with an Atlas TMCC, yes, and older one, an the sensor car did not like it. The sensor car kept changing the engine setup to Legacy from TMCC which messed up controls. Just my experience.

 It should work fine with absolutely any TMCC engine. Happy to work through this with you to confirm. If it is turning the CAB2 back to Legacy mode, this means that the data beaming out of the sensor car is set as a legacy engine. I do not believe it has anything to the lead engine being an Atlas.

Try reprogramming your SensorCar and make sure you program it to be a TMCC engine.

How would I program the sensor car to be a TMCC engine? The manual does not say anything about this and I have spent the past hour trying multiple TMCC engines and the sensor car resets everything to Legacy and I lose all control. I have program the car 10 times for 4 different engine numbers and nothing seems to change it since the minute I run over a sensor track it changes the engine to Legacy and Legacy sounds then plays the recording in TMCC sound control. I am really frustrated and feeling stupid right now.

I tried another 20 times. The TMCC Challenger stays in TMCC mode with the car but nothing else does.

Jeff, TMCC/Legacy is a one-way interface, the TMCC sender doesn't know or care what is on the other end of the transmission.  I don't know what's happening to your Atlas locomotives, but I can't see how it could possibly be on the sending end.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Jeff, TMCC/Legacy is a one-way interface, the TMCC sender doesn't know or care what is on the other end of the transmission.  I don't know what's happening to your Atlas locomotives, but I can't see how it could possibly be on the sending end.

That is what has me baffled. I program the sensor car to the engine with all of the TMCC settings. Saves fine. Then when the sensor car runs over my sensor track the car is seen and the setting are changed in the remote to Legacy. It does this with a Lionel Trainmaster TMCC that was made fro TCA also.

Jeff, I will help you with this and send a note a little later today. 

In the meantime, please confirm you are running Legacy version 1.6 in your CAB2 and Legacy Command base,.

Railsounds posted:

In the meantime, please confirm you are running Legacy version 1.6 in your CAB2 and Legacy Command base,.

Thank you. Yes, I am running 1.6 on both with a ZWL as power, the wifi, ser2, and 4 sensor tracks.

Captaincog posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Jeff, TMCC/Legacy is a one-way interface, the TMCC sender doesn't know or care what is on the other end of the transmission.  I don't know what's happening to your Atlas locomotives, but I can't see how it could possibly be on the sending end.

That is what has me baffled. I program the sensor car to the engine with all of the TMCC settings. Saves fine. Then when the sensor car runs over my sensor track the car is seen and the setting are changed in the remote to Legacy. It does this with a Lionel Trainmaster TMCC that was made fro TCA also.

I bought my sensor car to go with a Lionmaster Challenger (the original TMCC year 2000 edition).  Jeff indicates he is having every TMCC engine BUT a Challenger get switched to Legacy in the Cab2/base when paired with his sensor car.  So while I can confirm my TMCC Lionmaster Challenger doesn't have it's settings messed with when assigned the same ENG ID as the sensor car I have had a similar experience with the new PFE Legacy sound reefer and my TMCC Lionmaster Challenger.  The instructions for the PFE sound reefer indicates it's best to create a TRAIN via the Cab2 and access the PFE sound reefer via TrainLink.   However, when I create a TRAIN with the TMCC Challenger as the engine and add the PFE sound reefer then anytime anything is accessed on the PFE sound reefer the Challenger's settings for type change from TMCC to Legacy and the sound setting gets changed from RS as well.  And when that happens I can no longer control the Challenger (since it's now being sent Legacy commands).   I can pull up the Challenger's ENG number on the Cab2 and put the settings back to TMCC and RS but as soon as the PFE sound reefer is accessed for anything the Challenger's settings change to Legacy again.   I have confirmed my base and Cab2 are at 1.6  What I'm experiencing is very similar to Jeff from the sound of it.  It seems the software doesn't handle pairings between TMCC and Legacy but this seems a failure on the programming rather than a complete incompatibility on the hardware side.  It might be impossible to lashup a TMCC and Legacy engine.  But the software should be able to handle a TRAIN with a single TMCC engine and a Legacy sensor car or Legacy sound car or both.  

Railsounds posted:

Captaincog posted:

Just remember the little box may not work on all TMCC engines unless there is a way to address the TMCC boards on Atlas engines. I initially tried to make the sensor car work with an Atlas TMCC, yes, and older one, an the sensor car did not like it. The sensor car kept changing the engine setup to Legacy from TMCC which messed up controls. Just my experience.

 It should work fine with absolutely any TMCC engine. Happy to work through this with you to confirm. If it is turning the CAB2 back to Legacy mode, this means that the data beaming out of the sensor car is set as a legacy engine. I do not believe it has anything to the lead engine being an Atlas.

Try reprogramming your SensorCar and make sure you program it to be a TMCC engine.

So...if you program the sensor car with an engine number of a TMCC engine as opposed to a Legacy engine, then the sensor car will beam as a TMCC engine. Is that it? Don't you also have to set in, or previously have set in, the parameters of the TMCC engine sensor car combo and then press TxIR to set the sensor car to all the engine's parameters?  Then it, the combo, becomes a TMCC engine with an IR.

So then when you record a sensor track, you have to record with that TMCC engine? And press the set button on the remote to specify that TMCC engine? Can you record with any TMCC engine/sensor car combo and NOT press the set button to have any TMCC engine/sensor car combo trigger the program?

I guess what I am asking is the TMCC program only a mode 2 or mode 3 recording? And mode 1 recordings are the only ones where any Legacy engine will trigger a Legacy recording.

cjack posted:

Railsounds posted:

Captaincog posted:

Just remember the little box may not work on all TMCC engines unless there is a way to address the TMCC boards on Atlas engines. I initially tried to make the sensor car work with an Atlas TMCC, yes, and older one, an the sensor car did not like it. The sensor car kept changing the engine setup to Legacy from TMCC which messed up controls. Just my experience.

 It should work fine with absolutely any TMCC engine. Happy to work through this with you to confirm. If it is turning the CAB2 back to Legacy mode, this means that the data beaming out of the sensor car is set as a legacy engine. I do not believe it has anything to the lead engine being an Atlas.

Try reprogramming your SensorCar and make sure you program it to be a TMCC engine.

So...if you program the sensor car with an engine number of a TMCC engine as opposed to a Legacy engine, then the sensor car will beam as a TMCC engine. Is that it? Don't you also have to set in, or previously have set in, the parameters of the TMCC engine sensor car combo and then press TxIR to set the sensor car to all the engine's parameters?  Then it, the combo, becomes a TMCC engine with an IR.

So then when you record a sensor track, you have to record with that TMCC engine? And press the set button on the remote to specify that TMCC engine? Can you record with any TMCC engine/sensor car combo and NOT press the set button to have any TMCC engine/sensor car combo trigger the program?

I guess what I am asking is the TMCC program only a mode 2 or mode 3 recording? And mode 1 recordings are the only ones where any Legacy engine will trigger a Legacy recording.

I programmed the sensor track to a TMCC mode 2 recording for the Challenger combo and the sensor car does not change that control but try another TMCC engine with setting up the sensor car and it goes and resets the engine parameter on the Legacy controller to Legacy from TMCC. Now on another track I did a mode 1 recording to run multiple engines on different lines and as long as I did the recording for the TMCC locomotive under a TMCC command it worked fine.

Anyone else try a TMCC loco and setting?

Hello everyone.

Engineering has come up with a fix for the issue with SensorCar and TMCC locomotives.  I have placed the software upgrade on our website www.lionel.com in SUPPORT https://www.lionelsupport.com/service-documents/

The download is # 71-4295-505 Legacy Cab-2 Software Version 1.61.

This fix addresses the issue with Cab2 and SensorCar when used with a TMCC locomotive. Please note that after installing the update your Cab2 will show version 1.61. There is no base update necessary. Cab2 version 1.61 will work with Legacy Base version 1.60

For more detailed information please see the read me file in the download.

Thank you, Dean

Thanks Dean, very cool!  I'm going to give it a go!

I do have a question.  In the Read-Me, I find this.

If you are currently running LEGACY 1.2, your engine roster and other settings will be erased during the upgrade and must be re-entered.

Since the data is in the base, how does this update erase it?  I'm not running 1.2, but this is a curious statement anyway.

Lionel Dean posted:

Hello everyone.

Engineering has come up with a fix for the issue with SensorCar and TMCC locomotives.  I have placed the software upgrade on our website www.lionel.com in SUPPORT https://www.lionelsupport.com/service-documents/

The download is # 71-4295-505 Legacy Cab-2 Software Version 1.61.

This fix addresses the issue with Cab2 and SensorCar when used with a TMCC locomotive. Please note that after installing the update your Cab2 will show version 1.61. There is no base update necessary. Cab2 version 1.61 will work with Legacy Base version 1.60

For more detailed information please see the read me file in the download.

Thank you, Dean

Should this fix also solve the issue with creating a TRAIN with the new Legacy sound reefers and a TMCC engine where using TrainLink on such a configuration resets the TMCC engine to a Legacy engine and you lose control of it?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I do have a question.  In the Read-Me, I find this.

If you are currently running LEGACY 1.2, your engine roster and other settings will be erased during the upgrade and must be re-entered.

Since the data is in the base, how does this update erase it?  I'm not running 1.2, but this is a curious statement anyway.

I would bet SERIOUS money that what you're seeing is simply a result of "cut and paste" from the Read-Me for the PREVIOUS Cab2/Base update 1.6 which was for both Cab2 and Base.