Shelf Couplers

Who would have mentioned them at the Indy meet?  I heard nothing.

MWB,

Thought a new manufacturer may have been advertising them by now.

Thanks,

Al Hummel

Alan Hummel posted:

MWB,

Thought a new manufacturer may have been advertising them by now.

Like who?

MWB,

If you opened the link I sent,someone has made,(supposedly), the Masters & looks ready for producion,so figured they'd be advertising them,but sometimes I think this is just a joke. They look very nice in the photo.

Al Hummel

Hot digs! Shelf Couplers again.

When the market exceeds one, you may see production.  The all time best way to do this is to get patterns made (or buy existing patterns) and have a short production run cast up.

This is neither difficult nor prohibitively expensive.  When you finally do this, you may get a glimmer of understanding why Protocraft and Kadee have declined.

There are good foundries that do this stuff.  I just had some custom castings made.  Not cheap, but also not out of line for a hobby expense.

I do not know who makes patterns.  I bet an advertisement in MRR would get you started, or maybe Jay C.  has a good pattern maker.  I bet you are under $500 for reasonably good patterns.

All opinion.

Alan Hummel posted:

To all who were able to attend the indianapolis O/S Trainshow,was there any mention of the E Upper/Lower Safety Shelf couplers or the H Tightlock Coupler displayed in the following link? All replies will be appreciated. Many thanks. https://www.dropbox.com/s/brli...%2011.27.03.jpg?dl=0

As Always,

Al Hummel

My suggestion would be to contact they who made the ones in the image you posted.

Simon

Alan, I admire your tenacity. 

You'll get your shelf couplers right after we get an RS3 in O scale that doesn't have toy train handrails 

SIMON,

This is my problem,I don't have the slightest idea who's behind the "possible" development of these couplers. All I know is the man who drew the design for them & he isn't sharing any knowledge on ownership. At 1 time in the early development of these couplers,the "3D man," was developing draft gear for Atlas cars that would allow these couplers to drop right in place. That would be a great idea I think then sales could be made to Atlas and likely to MTH&Lionel. I'd throw in with this idea. 

RULE 292,

I think you mean I can expect to see these couplers when Hades sees it's 1st snow storm. LOL

As Always,

Al Hummel

Alan Hummel posted:

MWB,

If you opened the link I sent,someone has made,(supposedly), the Masters & looks ready for producion,so figured they'd be advertising them,but sometimes I think this is just a joke. They look very nice in the photo.

Al Hummel

And how did you get that link; who sent it to you? 

As Bob noted above, this could be a reasonable DIY effort.

Alan,

I sincerely hope your getting enjoyment from the trains you have, or are able to buy from the currently available market inventory. The coupler issue you've become involved with shouldn't be a factor in your success in this hobby...many of us deal with limited or nonexistent availability issues and manage to either make our own oddball stuff or find an acceptable substitute and march ahead. Times a wasting ... go enjoy the hobby.

I have done the "lusting after" bit.  I get some strange thing fixed in my mind as a "must have."  It has never been a coupler.

I have never missed.  The first one was an MM-2 in 17/64.  I lusted for that beast from about 1957 to 1984, knowing that I would have to build it.  I now have four.

Then it was the Lobaugh Cab Forward.  I placed a bunch of ads in MRR and 48/ft, and one day Peter Thorp (RIP) agreed to sell me his.

My current project in that vein is a sand- cast Erie-Built.  The sides (the last pieces I need) are now at a foundry. It has been maybe 20 years in its inception.

I think this sort of thing, if kept under control and in perspective, can be entertaining and healthy.  If it becomes an obsession it can be harmful.

Opinion.

BOB2,

You hit it right on the head-obsession with anything isn't good. 

Since getting into O Scale,I had 2 things I said were "absolutes"-shelf couplers & operating ground throws with moving targets. Thanks to All Aboard trains,the switchstands are VERY PLEASANT realities. Truly amazing,these groundthrows are the 1st of their kind in any scale. They work just like the Prototype 'stands. My congratulations to Larry for his years to perseverance & determination.

My problem now is that if these couplers are headed for production,I don't want to start a marketable product to find someone gets ahead of me & I tied up the money for nothing.

As a modeler,I have many 3rail cars sitting in "limbo" with no couplers as I can't afford to put on a Kadee,for instance,then buy a shelf coupler later. What I have for sale in HO&N HAVE TO FUND my O Scale as that's my only form to income for a hobby. So this represents a problem that's unique to me that may not bother other modelers.

 I started in HO with flaky looking F2X couplers then graduated to #5 Kadee's then finally #58 scale couplers,then shelf couplers from Kadee,then Sergent introduced an E coupler,then years later came couplers of ALL types,E,F,H and other unique couplers. These included shelf couplers in the E&F styles.

While I still intend to use Protocraft E couplers on freight,most of my fleet is modern that has shelf couplers & to put anything on them other than these couplers is a serious oversight. Atlas couplers especially earlier style Atlas,are junk. So those have to go too.

I renumber freight cars,design buildings,plan benchwork&track,etc.,but there's times as you modelers know,you have a craving to work on other things,which for me,is couplers and nothing else. 

I know my shelf couplers over the years seem like a "terrible obsession,"  but it's not intended to be. MTH,in their history of the tank car's evolution,even lists double shelf couplers as a modern development,so these couplers are refreshingly recognized.

Just my opinions and desires.

As Always,

Al Hummel

Al,

Can you provide contact info for the switch stands?

Thanks,

Ed

Red Cliffs Miniatures offers working switch stands with movable targets and illumination.  Done in brass from lost wax.

Jay

Ed &Jay,

Ed the email for the switchstands is,aatlarry@earthlink.net. Jay ,these groundthrows turn the switch points when the throw arm on the switchstand is turned just like on all groundthrows and turns a lamp or target on top of the groundthrow at the same time. Larry also has a motorized version of the same 'stand. At current,he's working on targets to fit the 'stand. Future groundthrows will be New Century designs. The current groundthrow is a Racor 22 with an Adlake lighted lamp on top.

Larry has lots of great things planned for the future. This is a FANTASTIC PRODUCT for O Scale and plans are for other scales,also.

Hope this helps.

As Always,

Al Hummel

Jay C posted:

Red Cliffs Miniatures offers working switch stands with movable targets and illumination.  Done in brass from lost wax.

Jay

Yes, they are nice piece of kit.

What would be great is to see someone creatively come up with a working Bethlehem New Century model 51.   Pretty common for east coast RRs and many are still in use today with bow handles.

Here's a link to Larry Stanley's Adlake switch stands.  I spoke with him at the Indy meet and he has eventual plans for a Bethlehem style also.

The Bethlehem 'stands were called New Century Adjustable I believe. 

As Always,

Al Hummel

Mr. Stanley is a top of the line gentleman&modeler. He's TRULY in touch with the modeler and their wants and needs. He welcomes and pays attention to his emails.

Keep up the GREAT work,Larry.

As Always,

Al Hummel

Um - bump! On another forum Shelf Couplers were mentioned.  It would be a shame if Alan was unaware.  Let me see if I can cut and paste.

Here we go - 

Not sure if passenger cars are supposed to have tightlock or some other fancy type coupler, but I read over on the proto48 group that Jim Lincoln completed patterns for type E double and lower shelf couplers as well as type H tightlocks. Jimmy Booth is looking at bringing some or all of those to market? Guess I'm going to need to study up on my coupler knowledge and see what tank cars and passenger cars I own might require any of those. Probably won't swap them all out, but having a few on a few select cars on sidings, etc. would be neat.

My advice - worth only what it cost you - get ahold of these guys with some startup capital.  They obviously have the beginnings of actual production.

Bob2:

The last report on the shelf couplers is that Jimmy Booth is producing E double shelf couplers for tank cars. The government mandated that all railroads have these couplers installed by 1978. The railroads began installing more of the lower shelf couplers on general non-tanker freight and diesels in the years right up to this day. Jimmy also is producing the lower shelf coupler as well as the H Tightlock couplers for passenger trains. Jim Lincoln designed the couplers is the word I got from Jim a long time back. The couplers are supposed to be here this January but I don't know. 

I'm only guessing that passenger cars use F couplers nowadays,but freight's my thing so I can't say for sure. According to Sam Clarke at Kadee,F couplers and H couplers were in existence before the E shelf couplers. These couplers will be able to be operated by cut levers from the top or bottom as well as by magnet. Protocraft sells this magnet & it's great too and will pull the trip pins to the side for handy uncoupling of Kadee&Atlas coupers.

Thanks for thinking of me Bob,if you have more updated info on these couplers,I'd sure be happy to know more about them and anxious to get some.

Jim Lincoln is experimenting with mounting as soon as he gets couplers from Jimmy,as these are made to fit a Protocraft type coupler box. In my experimenting with the modern Protocraft couplers,I cut off the pin located on the rear of the coupler&they will fit a Kadee coupler box.

Thanks again.

Al Hummel

These will be a great addition for those wanting to more closely replicate operating practices in the present day.  

Shelf couplers are a accessory whose time is overdue, and yes there is a waiting market. I like the brass couplers in the link, but would also like to see them blackened or "rusted" in some manner. Before someone says, "get out the airbrush" (and while there's nothing wrong with that), I'd like to point out that the beauty of drop in parts is they just drop in, no muss, no fuss, easy to use. In an age where time is one of the most precious commodities we have, quick easy conversion makes a product very attractive. I, myself, would need 10 pairs for my existing tank cars, plus another 3 for the cars I anticipate to purchase in 2018, along with spares, and 10 or more pairs for when, most assuredly, someone produces the 34000 gallon LPG Tank Car. Tight lock couplers would be appropriate on Amtrak cars and any modernized and/or rebuilt streamlined passenger cars. If Atlas is able to crank out the Trinity Pd Covered Hopper (ala BLMA), there is another car in need of shelf couplers. Change comes slowly to O Scale, but change it must to satisfy the growing demand for prototype appearance and detail. Like Swafford keeps saying, "ready to buy when you supply!" Just my two cents.

Mike Caddell,

Mike,VERY WELL SAID!! I,myself would like to finally see these couplers for sale even unpainted. I'm also wondering about price and if they'll come as kits or assembled. 

James Lincoln that did the 3D work,said early last year, the couplers may come as kits to permit the ability to make smaller runs at a time,which I assume would allow lower prices,but that's only a guess on my part.

My hat's off to Jimmy Booth and all that had a part in getting these couplers in production.

Yes,Mike,like you said, the Trinity 5161 cvd hoppers, modern tankers,as well as the steel cars were made with the lower shelf couplers. Many cars made with E couplers,are now refitted with lower shelf couplers.

Another great improvement made 1st in O Scale,is the fully operating groundthrow switchstand with lighted red/green lamp. Day targets will be available for modern day modelers. For those interested in this product,go to aatlarry@earthlink.net. Type this in your address bar,that will bring up Larry's Company called All Aboard Trains. Larry's a top notch O Scale Modeler and a fine Christian man that treats his customers like family.

Thanks Mike for the post.

As Always,

Al Hummel

You must have been a good boy Alan... Santa Claus was good to you! 

Fret not,  between the Clouser scale coupler and the San Juan/Protocraft Scale E type coupler we waited YEARS to get an accurate coupler. 

Next up you need that 51-a switch stand with a bow handle. 

(disclaimer - I'm not a modern era modeler, just one that recognizes that modern stuff will bring young life to an old timers hobby)

Did the shelf couplers mentioned in this thread ever come to market? Does anybody have a link?

That would be awesome. I’ve held off buying tank cars specifically because I know I wouldn’t have couplers for them.

https://www.glacierparkmodels.com

Simon

Well, you got me to look.  Did not see couplers - nice HO models, though.

Thanks for the link @Simon Winter, but I didn't see anything about the couplers. Is there a specific page I am supposed to be looking at or are you suggesting that I email them?

@bob2 posted:

Well, you got me to look.  Did not see couplers - nice HO models, though.

Suspect you are well aware that Jimmy Hill (No, It's Jimmy Booth!) is the owner of Glacier Park, who was supposedly making the SHELF couplers. A few things to consider: that was a while back, and a lot of stuff has happened between then and now (can you say Corona, and we ain't talking beer!) I think somewhere along the way Alan (who is a much nicer fellow, than You or I) gave up on his O dream because of the cost of track and switches. If I were wealthy (I'm NOT!) I would have tried to help him.

I think we will ultimately see Shelf couplers. (Note that others are now showing interest.)

Maybe someone who knows more than I can start a Go Fund Me for Al. They have been done for a lot of worse reasons!

Simon

I had a chance to get involved but declined because there was too much complaining about them.  Was it valid or typical behavior from O Scale modelers?  I really can't say.

I will ask the person in the know and see what I can find out.

Jay

Not really critical but Jimmy Booth owns GP Models.

Jay

@bigboy25 posted:

Thanks for the link @Simon Winter, but I didn't see anything about the couplers. Is there a specific page I am supposed to be looking at or are you suggesting that I email them?

The squeaky wheel gets the grease! As we all know, the crap hit the fan in 2020, so I don't think it would hurt to e-mail Jimmy. (That E-postage is pretty cheap!)

Jay C. is a good guy, maybe he will find out something!

Simon

@Jay C posted:

Not really critical but Jimmy Booth owns GP Models.

Jay

Yeah, I lovelaced the last name, my bad! Thanks for pointing it out! Jimmy deserves better!

Simon

Thank you @Simon Winter and @Jay C for the clarifications. I will look forward to what Jimmy Booth has to say through Jay C.

That was illuminating.

Alan may be a nice guy, but he got fixated on a couple of relatively small issues and it destroyed his enjoyment of the hobby.

Regardless of what your hobby is, if you fixate on the unavailable, your enjoyment is doomed.

O Scale is not for everyone.  But there are so many facets, and so much available both new and used, that if one wants to be an O Scale hobbyist on a budget, there simply are no insurmountable obstacles.

But if you decide that the only way you can possibly enjoy O Scale is with shelf couplers -

@bob2 posted:

That was illuminating.

Alan may be a nice guy, but he got fixated on a couple of relatively small issues and it destroyed his enjoyment of the hobby.

Regardless of what your hobby is, if you fixate on the unavailable, your enjoyment is doomed.

O Scale is not for everyone.  But there are so many facets, and so much available both new and used, that if one wants to be an O Scale hobbyist on a budget, there simply are no insurmountable obstacles.

But if you decide that the only way you can possibly enjoy O Scale is with shelf couplers -

From his (Alan) last comments that I saw, it seemed more like the financial burden was what drove him away. Maybe he will return and illuminate things for us. The last posts of his that I saw were lamenting the high costs of track and switches.

Simon