Should I add weight to Lionel 390e?

Yes that would help.  Also check the gauge of the wheels vs. track.  If there is tightness or binding there or at the loco motor chassis, your pulling power will be considerably reduced.  

Thank you Rob.  Question, what does checking the gauge of the wheel versus the track mean?  How do I do that.  I understand the point on tightness and binding.

I think he means make sure your wheels are running straight. If they are not, they will get tight on the track, causing the train to run slow because the wheels are binding on the track.

George S,

    I think you will find that the 390E was never meant to pull a lot of rolling stock, if I remember correctly 3 big cars and an add on, with the Caboose.

PCRR/Dave

Steamer posted:

I think he means make sure your wheels are running straight. If they are not, they will get tight on the track, causing the train to run slow because the wheels are binding on the track.

Thank you.  I understand now.  I will take a look.

George

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

George S,

    I think you will find that the 390E was never meant to pull a lot of rolling stock, if I remember correctly 3 big cars and an add on, with the Caboose.

PCRR/Dave

Interesting... I have heard that, but also know it was cataloged with the blue comet cars, which are pretty heavy, and they made a 390X tender to pull 200 series freights.  I just thought I could pull a few more than that, but my experience is that I can't pull more than five or six cars.  

How much smaller are the 500 series cars?  Would I be able to pull more of those?

George

By checking the gauge,you want to see how snugly the drivers fit between the rails. With the engine on the track, you should be able to move the drivers sideways a bit, maybe 1/16-1/8" slop. Especially check it on the curves. If the flanges are to snug against the rail side, it will cause a lot of drag. With tinplate, a bit of slop is good.

Steve

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

By checking the gauge,you want to see how snugly the drivers fit between the rails. With the engine on the track, you should be able to move the drivers sideways a bit, maybe 1/16-1/8" slop. Especially check it on the curves. If the flanges are to snug against the rail side, it will cause a lot of drag. With tinplate, a bit of slop is good.

Steve

Just so.  Same thing goes for snugness on the motor itself between the wheel hubs and the bearings. It should spin easily and have some side play.

Lionel did not design their loco motors for specific pulling power tasks, essentially they were all the same..... there were other reasons that the loco didn't "pull well" or was a "good puller".  Mostly due to weight on the wheels.  Its essentially the same motor in all super motor locos, and all Bild-a-locos are essential the same power...  Yes there are differences that were introduced over their manufacturing life, and Non E unit motors have more power generally... But they are basically the same.

On a flat surface, with clean track, properly gauged wheels, proper lubrication on the loco and cars and a good supply of full sine wave AC power to the track you should be able to pull 10-20 cars... Pretty much every time.  However, be aware the S-42 curves induce a LOT more drag on the locos than S-72. Utilizing these curve (S-42) will reduce apparent power by 25-30% in the curve.  Any gradient will reduce "apparent power" by 50%:1%...Meaning every 1% of grade will reduce the length of the train that can be pulled with the same power by 50% (approximately).

500 series are quite a bit smaller and lighter, but they have the same number of wheels.  You should be able to pull 30-50% more of these than the 200s.. all the rest being equal.

Perfect!  That is what I wanted to know.  I think the O42 curves could be limiting me, but I will check the wheel gauge.  It could be that the rolling stock is in the curve, making it harder for the engine to get the whole train moving.  I can try this on my O72 loop and see if I can get longer straights on my O42 loop so I am not trying to pull all the rolling stock through the curve at startup.

Hence the switch to double motor 408E over the 381E for the 4 car state set. 

Gentlemen,

   Good advise from everybody!   You can see in the picture below the difference in size of the 810 Crane Car with the Logging Dump Car in between, and the 2660 Crane Car following, that I often run together on the 263E Work Train, in fact they are all O Gauge Lionel Tin Plate rolling stock, the 2600 series rolling stock being about 1/2 the size of the 800 series.  The 810 Crane Cars and the 2660 Crane Car pictured below are all Lionel originals from the the early 1900's, and some of my most treasured hobby pieces.  They get run as intended, every Christmas in both my brother and my home.

   PCRR/Dave

Higher voltage to the track may help also.

What is the highest voltage your transformer reaches? 17-18v?

Getting a few more volts, say up to 20-22v, may help generate some more power. But yes, it could cause a little more wear on the copper armature.

MrNabisco posted:

Higher voltage to the track may help also.

What is the highest voltage your transformer reaches? 17-18v?

Getting a few more volts, say up to 20-22v, may help generate some more power. But yes, it could cause a little more wear on the copper armature.

Not sure that will solve my wheel slipping problem.  The wheels spin before the voltage reaches 18 volts.

George S posted:

Perfect!  That is what I wanted to know.  I think the O42 curves could be limiting me, but I will check the wheel gauge.  It could be that the rolling stock is in the curve, making it harder for the engine to get the whole train moving.  I can try this on my O72 loop and see if I can get longer straights on my O42 loop so I am not trying to pull all the rolling stock through the curve at startup.

This is a good way to discover the difference  that the curves make.  Check also to see if the 4 drivers all sit on the rails as well.

I have a figure eight on the floor.  One side has eight straights kin it, the other side two.  All but the small electrics slow down on the short side.   42 curves seem to slow the train down when alll or most of the cars are in a curve.  I would think putting weight in the engine may slow it down more.  t doesn't hurt to oil the wheels on your freight cars.  They can get gunky and the better they spin the less drag put on the engine.  

"Not sure that will solve my wheel slipping problem.  The wheels spin before the voltage reaches 18 volts."

Good point. Increased voltage may give more power once the wheels grip the rails.

BTW: Polished wheel rims will slip. Take a look at them. They may have become a bit polished from the slipping, adding to the problem. A little scuffing with a Scoth-Brite pad will clean them up and add a bit of texture for grip.

Also, any oil on the track is going to help create wheel slip, so I'd suggest giving the track a good cleaning too.

But my guess is the real problem is the tight 42" curves.

Good luck.

MrNabisco posted:

 

BTW: Polished wheel rims will slip. Take a look at them. They may have become a bit polished from the slipping, adding to the problem. A little scuffing with a Scoth-Brite pad will clean them up and add a bit of texture for grip.

The wheels are very polished and shiny.  I will work on them with a scotch brite pad.

George S,

   I took for granted you were running on Conventional Tubular Track, by some chance are you running on MTH STD Gauge RealTrax?  

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

George S,

   I took for granted you were running on Conventional Tubular Track, by some chance are you running on MTH STD Gauge RealTrax?  

PCRR/Dave

This is on tubular (including some MTH tubular).  I run other trains on MTH STD Gauge RealTrax.  Is there a problem with that track that I am unaware of?

It also might be worth a look at the wheel-to-rail contact points. If you get a solid piece of level track on a solid surface, take a look to see if all four wheels are touching the track. Do this with the engine sitting free and level, and also with the motor/wheel assembly by itself, and see if there's any rocking or daylight showing. There might be a slight twist somewhere that lifts a wheel or two. Even a slight wrack can cause only two wheels to touch and you lose traction.

George S,

   Try running it on the RealTrax STD Gauge Track one time, and see what happens.  

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

George S,

   Try running it on the RealTrax STD Gauge Track one time, and see what happens.  

PCRR/Dave

Dave,

I think I see what you mean.  This is a carpet layout right now, so it is harder for me to get my eyes to track level.  It looks like on the RealTrax the wheels are a 1/16 inch off the rail and the flange is driving the train on the plastic roadbed.  Is this what you meant?  It does create some slippage, but not the full wheel spinning I sometimes get on the tubular track.

I am going to clean my tubular track and increase the space between corners of my loop, so I don't need to pull all my cars through a complete STD42 half circle. Then I will report back.  I will check my wheel gauge too, but I think that is OK.

George

I added a straight section to divide the half circles at the end of my loops, I cleaned the track and I inspected the wheels.  It does not spin much at all now.  To PCRR/Dave's point, I can't run this properly on the RealTrax due to the track height.  I still get a little slippage on the tubular curves.  If I had STD72 curves or a bigger loop, I am sure I can pull more cars.  I don't think I need to add weight right now.  Thanks for the help everyone.  This has been a good education.

George

you also could look for a traction tire, to see how that would work,  should be able to find a drive belt for stereo or vcr, 1/4 inch wide,  or a vacuum  drive belt,  use rubber cement so you can get it off,  I did this  30 years ago,  there was  a lionel  traction tire that fit,  put it on rear wheels, which raised rear, but the pull of cars  pulled down wheels to track,  not  SDT ga, where both ft and rear wheels drive, but if your worried about slipping,  try the rears,,,,

I will throw this in.  My small electrics, 8,10, 318, all pull a lot of cars.  My steamers pull in order of size.  My smallest, the 384, will pull down a house, 385 is next strongest, 390 is not that great, 3 baby states, but it always had an issue with the e unit ( and it just died, shorts out the track,  grrr...), and my 392 is the weakest, pulling only four 500 freights at a decent speed. The 392 runs much better in reverse.  Seems to have some kind of issue in the gears.  (more grr..) My point is, it seems the heavier the engine, the less it can haul.  Which may make sense, considering the motors are the same, less weight on the engine means better pulling power.  That is why I wouldn't add weight to the engine.  Why your wheels slip is a mystery to me, but it seems like you are making headway.  I did read that Lionel changed the motor at some point on the 392 & 400 to increase the pulling power.  Have fun.

George,

    I thought you were running on the RealTrax STD Gauge and having the problems you saw happening.   Now that you have altered your Tubular Track design you should be able to run your train without to much slippage.  Always remember when running STD Gauge the closer to 072 you stay the better your big Train is going to run.  

PCRR/Dave

Just to follow up on the video, the forum has changed. That is my 384 hauling twelve primo 500 cars including her tender.  I'm not going to do that again probably ever.  These are 90 year old trains and four or five cars are fine.  She runs like a greyhound and pulls like a mule, which is why I want to preserve her.  One in a million.  Just showin off I guess.  She's a honey.  And I still don't know her name.

As always,  Cheers!