SHOW ME THE ACTUAL PRODUCT!

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

J Daddy,

    How nice of them to refund my money, when they supplied me with merchandise I did not even order in the 1st place.  This thinking is exactly why these businesses get away with doing business in the manner they do.  Not just in our Hobby but thru out the business world in general.  I will give you another example, now the Gas and Light companies are permitted to estimate your bills for 3 months at a time, they over estimate by at least 65% and use your money to operate their company while drawing interest on your money, and the government allows them to do business in this manner.  Then they dribble your money back to you a little at a time, then they estimate again and it starts all over.  Frankly when I order a product and put a down payment on it and they supply me with something other than what I ordered, it's the same thing, they are using me as a bank.  In reality they should be paying me interest on my money they tied up for maybe a year or so.  Especially if its a $100.00 or more.  Business operating in this manner, especially those having a lots of customers, make millions of dollars every year, using their customers money.  There are many consumers who have no idea what is happening to them, as these under handed business practices take place, I am not one of those people.  Yep and when the utility companies want me to read their meters for them, I tell them no problem, however I graduated from MIT, if I work for your company, my professional engineering rate is $266.00 an hr, with a 2 hr minimum. As a professional Engineer I have the right to bill them for my service.  All of a sudden somebody is sent out to read my meter.  It's the over all fraudulent business practices that now take place in some industries, that have become common place today, that need to be cleaned up.  Our hobby with the BTO, is just one small example of this business money game. Unfortunately it's now a common business practice.

PCRR/Dave

You give them your money first? Not me. I pay when it comes in . Not what I expected, I return the next day.

TrainingDave posted:

Doug N posted:

Tha Lima Demonstrator Berkshire was listed in the Catalog as having whistle smoke, but it didn't.  That feature was one of the reasons that I ordered it. Although this was before BTO it was listed wrong and upset many people.

I just looked at the 2013 Sig catalog with this engine in it. I do not see anywhere where it states it was supposed to have whistle steam. Try again.

Uhhh... You might want to try again.    Look at the 2012 Catalog, where those Berks were first catalog'd.  Then come back here and tell us what you see.  

There were lots of discussions about this here on the forum when that happened a couple of years ago.

David

How about them couplers?

Paul,
Am I to understand that for these "Exorbitant' prices, that these big name manufactures don't 'Bait" and 'Switch?!!'

Instead, they deliver what they make 'Big Bucks' on, because most modelers don't check the facts and buy with their eyes?!!!!!!
Ralph

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

TrainingDave posted:

Doug N posted:

Tha Lima Demonstrator Berkshire was listed in the Catalog as having whistle smoke, but it didn't.  That feature was one of the reasons that I ordered it. Although this was before BTO it was listed wrong and upset many people.

I just looked at the 2013 Sig catalog with this engine in it. I do not see anywhere where it states it was supposed to have whistle steam. Try again.

 

Uhhh... You might want to try again.    Look at the 2012 Catalog, where those Berks were first catalog'd.  Then come back here and tell us what you see.  

There were lots of discussions about this here on the forum when that happened a couple of years ago.

David

Ah there it is. I stand corrected.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

TrainingDave posted:

Doug N posted:

Tha Lima Demonstrator Berkshire was listed in the Catalog as having whistle smoke, but it didn't.  That feature was one of the reasons that I ordered it. Although this was before BTO it was listed wrong and upset many people.

I just looked at the 2013 Sig catalog with this engine in it. I do not see anywhere where it states it was supposed to have whistle steam. Try again.

 

Uhhh... You might want to try again.    Look at the 2012 Catalog, where those Berks were first catalog'd.  Then come back here and tell us what you see.  

There were lots of discussions about this here on the forum when that happened a couple of years ago.

David

Good job David.  I remember it happening, just can't believe it was 4 years ago already.  Time flies when you are getting old.

I enjoy reading articles about the 'Golden Age" of Lionel, and often the articles are about for example, how the pre production models they used in the catalog images didn't match the actual production product. Catalogs often showed for example sets that were never produced, or when they were produced,the set didn't include what was pictured. Paint schemes changed, details changed, and back then I suspect no one really cared, they simply were happy to get the trains. And of course, as others have pointed out, people didn't really buy out of the catalog, they waited until the items were available, checked them in the store, and if they were what they wanted, they bought it. 

I can understand, especially in the BTO context, why people would be upset, while something like a missing inspection plate or a stripe too wide likely wouldn't upset me, I am not into prototypical accuracy that much, but to someone who that is important, I can understand not liking it, and if features promised don't show up when the engine does, that is irritating, too, especially if you are paying a lot for it.  It is kind of disturbing on a high end unit like these that what is promised and what is delivered doesn't match, back in the day these were toys with expectations as such, these days these are highly detailed and complicated units that are sold on those features, at a premium price, so there is no excuse for that, it is pure sloppiness. Like I said, I might not really care, but I can understand how others would be upset. 

RJL posted:

Paul,
Am I to understand that for these "Exorbitant' prices, that these big name manufactures don't 'Bait" and 'Switch?!!'

Instead, they deliver what they make 'Big Bucks' on, because most modelers don't check the facts and buy with their eyes?!!!!!!
Ralph

Anyone with five minutes to spare can fact check  a particular locomotive and come up with the right cab numbers, body, paint, etc. MTH and Lionel have surprised me with prototypical pieces in the past but have dropped the ball quite often too.   

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

TrainingDave posted:

Doug N posted:

Tha Lima Demonstrator Berkshire was listed in the Catalog as having whistle smoke, but it didn't.  That feature was one of the reasons that I ordered it. Although this was before BTO it was listed wrong and upset many people.

I just looked at the 2013 Sig catalog with this engine in it. I do not see anywhere where it states it was supposed to have whistle steam. Try again.

 

Uhhh... You might want to try again.    Look at the 2012 Catalog, where those Berks were first catalog'd.  Then come back here and tell us what you see.  

There were lots of discussions about this here on the forum when that happened a couple of years ago.

David

Correct

TrainingDave posted:

So are manufacturers supposed to pay for design, tooling, samples, etc and have product done before it ever is in a catalog? So then when it's cataloged and two people buy one and the manufacturers are sitting on 998 more of them then what? Well then that's when a company turns into a charity and blows them out at a loss. I would much rather order off 2D catalog art and get a slightly fat white stripe (that I and most other MODEL railroaders could easily fix) so that MTH, Atlas, L, etc are still here 5 years from now. If these companies don't profit they don't make trains. And we all lose in that scenario.

Isn't market researching supposed to take place before any manufacturing?  Most of us would like products that are never made because not enough interest is shown in a given item by the public.

The Berkshire debacle... yes then they were blown out for 700 a piece. The funny thing is the sound was spectacular on these and nobody recalls the good.

Paul,
I am agreeing with you, though I didn't clearly state it that way, in my previous post.
It seems that most past items were as close to the prototype as possible, but now-a-dayS the Big companies sometimes miss the mark and yet the prices are getting high
Ralph 

We could always go back to the mid 90's when there were maybe 100 items or so in a catalog.  With maybe a couple of "one sheet" or 4 page flyers added per year for a few items not in that main catalog.

Many of those items were made (or at least a production sample for an actual photo) before the catalog was printed since many are photographs, not artwork or the more current CAD/photoshoping.  Back then the decisions were made before the orders were taken to some extent, I'm pretty sure.

The explosion of catalog sizes in the late 90's to early 2000's got us here (even before it had the cute acronym of BTO that Lionel coined a few years back).  In reality the catalogs have been wish books for quite a while now.

(remember when Lionel and MTH each did three catalogs a year - and they were still big by today's standards.  MTH released both a Premier and RK for one of those years (2000?) for 6 total catalogs in one  year!!!)