Simultanious TMCC & DCS operation

Samuel,

   1st I suggest you get your hands on a Z4K then use the other ZW's for different switch and siding power.  Purchase Barry's DCS O Guage Companion book 2nd addition, everything you need to know for engineering your layout is in his book,

also pick up the OGR Video guide to DCS, Rich does a great visual instruction education for your engineering needs.  After that when you have specific building questions come back and ask your questions.

PCRR/Dave

1st I suggest you get your hands on a Z4K then use the other ZW's for different switch and siding power.

WHY??? The ZW's work just fine with DCS, there is no need to purchase another transformer, when what they have will likely be more than adequate.

Samuel, I do also reccomend getting the book, (which I haven't, yet).  Legacy and TMCC couldn't be much simpler, just plug in the power and hook up ONE WIRE to outside rails and you're hooked up. To use Legacy AND TMCC at the same time not much harder, TWO wall-warts to plug in, and Lionel has a cable(supplied with the Legacy set, IIRC) that connects the TMCC base to the Legacy base, then just ONE WIRE from the Legacy base to the outside rails, and you're ready to go.

 I am still real low on the DCS learning curve yet, I have only had it about a month now, it is not real difficult, but it is not as easy as Legacy and/or TMCC to set up.

Operating three power districts(seperatly powered loops), I believe that you will need a second TIU (Track Interface Unit) as each TIU only has two fixed voltage channels, and IIRC, each seperatley powered loop, needs to be run through a seperate TIU channel.

 DCS, sends it's signal through the center(HOT) rail, which is why each seperately powered track section needs to be routed through it's own TIU channel.

 DCS is particular, I have read, about using a star wiring pattern, rather than using a buss wire system. to star wire, use a terminal block for the center "Hub" then run individual feeders to each powered section of track.

Legacy and TMCC, send their signal through the outside rails(Common Ground), and so are not particular about power blocks.

 Your ZW's, are they modern, or Post-War ZW's? should be plenty of power for your layout's  track needs, I don't know what other structures or accessories that you will be powering, so that may make a difference. I am running two 13x24 loops around the Family and dining rooms off one modern ZW. the inner loop has been running an MTH Railking F3 with 3 dummies(1 F3A and 2 F3B's) plus Eleven Lighted passenger cars, and an MTH Aerotrain, with 5 Lighted passenger cars. Plus I am running various Locomotives including Scale articulateds(singlely) pulling a 36 car freight train, on the outer loop, ALL with ONE modern ZW, with 2 180 watt bricks.

Legacy/TMCC and DCS work so differently that they can be used simulateously, without interfereing with each other.

If you end up NEEDING more power available, a Z-4000 may not be a bad choice, but, it sure doesn't sound like it is needed yet.

Doug

Doug,

   If they want to run Conventional and P2/P3 with Legacy & TMCC all at the same time, the only way to due it is with a Z4K and it's side receiver,  via the DCS remote control.   The Z4K does open some different running options the other transformers

don't.  I was not thinking of power when I advised on the aquition.

To me half the fun is running Conventional and P2/P3 trains on the same track

and controlling both trains form the same hand held remote.  Throw a couple Legacy type engines on the layout with them and running becomes something the kids can really get their heads into, similar to their computers.

PCRR/Dave

PCRR/Dave, Fair enough, i did admit that I'm still low on the DCS learning curve yet. I haven't used the Z-4000 yet, never mind the side reciever. Still learning.

Doug

IMO, this is sometimes an exercise in futility.  Variable voltage and power interruptions necessary to control the conventional locomotives aren't command friendly.  While it's possible under a limited set of conditions, why bother?

Running DCS and TMCC is a different matter, that's no problem at all, and they're completely compatible.  There are some issues, typically with larger layouts, but generally they play well together.

It it VERY SIMPLE to run DCS and TMCC/Legacy, on the same layout, on the same track. Run your power "out" from the ZW "in" to the TIU. Then "out" of the TIU to your distribution blocks for each loop.

We are using a ZW-C with 4 180 bricks. The ZW-C is used in program mode so we are able to dial up the voltage on each track using the Cab1 or Cab2 remote, which enables us to run these loops conventional as well.

Are you using a PostWar ZW or a modern ZW?

I explain this setup on the latest video update of our layout progress. So many people make it much more difficult to understand than it really is. You don't even need the cable that connects the TIU to the Legacy base....... unless you want to control TMCC/Legacy engines from the DCS remote.

Laidoffsick,

   I can understand gurunnerjohns views, there are times that it can be challenging to set everything up just right, I bother because I like to mess around with my layout controls.   To some people it's more work than should be required.  The side receiver on the Z4K makes it possible for the Conventional trains to be controlled from the DCS hand held remote, without interruptions, it is a real neat addition to the Z4K.

PCRR/Dave 

There's no problem running conventional and command on the same loop, as long as it's at different times.  I have a loop that is fed by the variable channel of the MTH TIU, to run conventional I just control it from the DCS remote.  However, I don't try to run command on that loop at the same time.

I simply ask Samual what type of ZW they have, PW or modern ZW? If they are using a modern ZW, then they have everything they need to do what they want to do.

If they are PW ZW's, then they can run conventional using the 2 variable channels of the TIU only.

A Z4000 is NOT the ONLY way to run conventional using DCS.

QUOTE, PCRR/Dave:

  If they want to run Conventional and P2/P3 with Legacy & TMCC all at the same time, the only way to due it is with a Z4K and it's side receiver,  via the DCS remote control.   The Z4K does open some different running options the other transformers

don't. 

PCRR/Dave, I am not familiar with the side reciever and remote for the Z-4000, but it seems like that is exactly the same as using a cab-1 with the modern ZW to remotely control the throttles for conventional operation. I use this feature of the ZW and cab-1 (should work with the cab-2 also) when adding or changing locomotives or rolling stock to the track, run the power down make the swap/addition and run the power back up, and start playing again without causing a short and tripping a breaker by accidently touching the center rail with anything that shouldn't touch the center rail.

 The modern ZW will act as up to four TPC's, push the "TR" button and then 1,2,3, or 4 to control whichever throttle you want to control, I use this to also run conventional locomotives on my loops that I usually run command on (either Legacy/TMCC or DCS). Unless the "side reciever" and remote do something more than my limited understanding of them, it sounds like the same thing can be done with the modern ZW's and a Cab-1 or Cab-2. Were you not aware of the ZW's ability to do this, as I was not familiar with the Z-4000?

If Samuel is using the modern ZW, rather than the post-war versions, I don't think that there would be any benefit to him getting a Z-4000 until their power requirements are such that the three ZW's are not adequate.

 I know that the Z-4000 is capable of some programming or resetting functions, that other transformers are not, is there any function that the Z-4000 is capable of, that CAN NOT be done with the full DCS system remote?

Doug

Thanks for all the input. I currently have a home 10'x22' layout with a Z4000, TIU and TMCC power unit and all my loco's both DCS and TMCC run fine. I followed the manuals and the DVD to set it up. The question for the club layout was that with such a large layout and 3 power sources was the wiring any different. Based on your input i think i figured it out. 1st the TIU has 4 sep feeds 2 fixed and 2 variable. Connect 1 transformer to the 1st. fixed, the 2nd transformer to the 2nd fixed and the 3rd transformer to one of the variables. Connect the TMCC to the TIU as indicated and it should work. The 1st two transformers would run either DCS or TMCC and the last Transformer using the variable should run either or if you lower the voltage should be able to run conventional on the seperate 3rd loop.