Soldering!

Unfortunately, I think the show promoter would have to concern him/her self with the possibility of being sued when someone burns themselves.

I think this would be a great idea.  

Each year at The Henry Ford/Greenfield Village here in the Detroit area there is an event called the "MakerFaire"  (Information here).  They are also held in many other cities throughout the world.  This is sort of a giant science faire and gathering for nerds of all sorts, and just a thoroughly enjoyable event if you like anything to do with electronics, mechanics, or science in general.  

Point here is that they have an area set up with about 20 soldering irons, and every couple of hours they will do a sort of class where young people can sit down for half an hour or so and learn to solder a small circuit board.  I think it was an LED flasher circuit the last time.  An instructor walks the participants through the process step by step and helps with any problems.  I haven't seen any of the children doing this have any major problems.  

Soldering really is pretty simple, and doesn't take long to get pretty good at.  

JGL

C.W. BURFLE made a good point , the liability if someone burns themselves when soldering, I burned myself numerous times while learning and occasionaly today when I have a senior moment. There are many good videos on the web showing one how to solder, important considerations what is being soldered for example wire splice joints, feeder wire to rails, replacing  voltage regulators, capacitors or resistors on circuit boards, etc. Solder joints must be clean, tight metal to metal( for example stripped copper wire against web of tin plate rail),spring clamps, alligator clips can be used, solder flux may have to be used and finally consideration must be given to what  type of metal and size of metal(heat sink) a wire is being soldered to,soldering tips are to be clean and tight and the soldering device must be chosen based on heating and wattage of the soldering pencil or gun.

If you don't get singed every few months, you're not soldering enough.

Some years back I developed a PC board kit for a Morse code oscillator for Webelos scouts to build.  The boys built a couple hundred kits without any fatalities, but a couple did learn about "caloric proximity" with a lasting impression.

Dale, I like your levity, next time I have a senior moment and get singed I will say it was "caloric proximity" not insufficient heat transfer(cooling) or a thermodynamic event. 

Am I using the wrong tools?

I have  a Weller solder gun 140/100W.  Would an "Iron" be better? If so give me a name.

The solder I have used , Worthington Rosin Core lead free 97/3 (?)  .062"

another coil is  BernzOmatic  Electrical Rosin Core Solder lead free silver bearing  .062.

Why do I have these items?  Went to Lowes and asked the clerk what type of solder did I need for model railing, If I remember correctly, he said, "this is what I would use.

Not making excuses, I have read may articles on this forum on this subject but still don't know if I am using the right stuff.

Brent

I think it's kind of a right tool for the job thing. It depends on the kind of things you are soldering. You should probably have both a gun and an iron or better a soldering station. If you were really hardcore, doing a lot of brass fabrication, a resistance soldering unit would be the tool of choice. For track work and large wire the gun, and electronics and small work the station is the way to go.

Rosin, yes,,,, Acid no,,,,,

I use the Hakko FX888D and .021 diameter rosin core solder for my finer work, I have the .031 rosin core solder for track work and wiring under the layout.  For track work, brass, and  heavy wire, I use my Weller 100/140 gun.

It is definitely about having the correct tool. Let's see, what do I use?

• Weller WMP micro pencil for tiny circuits and SMD stuff. probably have 6 different sizes and shapes of tips. 
• Weller WSP temp controlled iron and an assortment of tips for routine electronic work. This is about the equivalent of GRJ's Hakko.
• Weller W60 temp controlled iron and tips for " heavy" electronics. Solders #12 wires with no trouble.
• Weller W200 temp controlled iron for huge wiring and light sheet metal work. Easily solders 1/4" copper tubing.
• Weller 140/100 watt iron, sort of overlaps the WSP and W60 but safer, heats up and cools down in a few seconds. Good for working under the layout or in tight areas; if you drop it it turns off instead of continuing to cook like an iron. Good for teaching kids, it turns off if they get distracted and leave it plugged in.

For general wiring on model railroad stuff I would recommend a good iron, like the GRJ's Hakko or my Weller WSP. Forget anything that is not temperature controlled, those are good for woodburning sets and not much else. First thing to learn is what a properly cleaned and tinned tip looks like, when brushed on a damp sponge the tip should look as if it were coated in mercury, all the way around.  As far as solder goes, for a beginner, I would use something like Kester 44 50/50, rosin core, 062. 50/50 is more forgiving, it has a small plastic range during which it will tolerate SLIGHT motion. It also fills gaps better than 63/37, which melts instantly and has no plastic range. For the beginner, I would stay away from lead-free and silver-bearing solders, they are considerably fussier than 50/50 or 63/37.

One final point on the soldering process - All the "how-to" guides preach to high heaven about applying the solder to the work, and not to the iron. In my opinion that is seriously overstated and blind obedience to that rule causes a lot of frustration. Melted solder is a good conductor of heat, and a bit of melted solder on the PROPERLY TINNED iron transfers heat to the work quickly and effectively. As a point of fact, if the work is hot enough (and properly clean), it doesn't matter WHERE you apply the solder, it will flow by capillary action all over everything, including places you don't want it! But, if you have a red-hot iron, the loose tip black with corrosion, old oily wire and plumber's solder, the joint will never heat. Applying solder to the iron in this case will just make it melt and drip off, and unfortunately the fact that the solder melts at all is frequently mistaken for "soldering." Melted solder that "sorta drips" onto the wire won't work.

Start with correct tool, correct materials and a properly prepared tip. As a point of reference, soldering together two #18 wires, just a simple twist splice, should take 5 seconds MAXIMUM, typically maybe 2 or 3 seconds. If it takes longer than that, something is wrong!

I think part of the problem with solder on the tip, rather than the workpiece, is that the flux gets burned off on the iron's tip and never reaches the workpiece.

Generally I use a Weller 8200N 100/140 soldering gun for working on trains. I prefer the older model with tip nuts, as opposed to set screws holding the tips in place.

Either way, the tip nuts / set screws need to be retightened from time to time.

I also have an assortment of soldering irons, picked up over the years. I use these on printed circuit boards and in situations where the gun will not transfer enough heat quickly. Most of my irons have an assortment of tips.

I use standard 60/40 solder. I prefer thin, rosin core. I think its .031 I have some thicker stuff too. When working on trains, I use whatever I grab from the drawer. For PC boards, I use the thin stuff.

PLCProf posted:

.... Forget anything that is not temperature controlled, ...

the most important tip ( ) you can take away from this discussion.  though it may seem obvious, a "temperature controlled" iron will always keep the tip at the proper temperature to melt solder.  i have a single Weller iron that i can use for a range of chores from joining #30 wires to attaching #14 wire to solid rail track with perfect results every time.

I use a Weller D550 (240/300 Watt) for larger soldering jobs where overheating is not going to be an issue, such as soldering 14 gauge wire or soldering to traditional tubular track.  To be honest, the big gun is only rarely pulled off the shelf, and only when I know I have many such large connections to make... it's probably been 5 years since I've used it now.  

For most jobs I use one iron or another.  I also recommend the high quality soldering stations like GRJ uses.  I've used them as well, but have never had occasion to purchase one.  I've used a number of Weller and radio shack branded soldering irons over the years.  At the moment I'm using a very cheap iron with temp control that was purchased for about $30 at MicroCenter, and it works well enough for me.   Probably 80% of all the soldering I've done in my life was with a radio shack 30 Watt iron. These are honestly not very good, and the tips are complete garbage, but they are cheap and work reliably.  Most components you solder will stand u to a little heat, and I've always used sockets for IC chips so heat was a non-issue for those.  There are also metal clip on heat sinks that I've used from time to time, but don't normally bother with.  Over the last 30 years I can recall frying one transistor from applying too much heat.  

I have about 20 large rolls of solder left from a case my father purchased some time in the 70's.  I do not recall the thickness, but there are two varieties which I've always just referred to as thin and thick. I'd guess they are .030, and  .060.  The thicker stuff has been used in a pinch for component soldering, but the thin is much easier to use.  For simply soldering wires together pretty much anything will do.  One last thing is that I recently purchased a roll of solder because my stash is buried in storage right now, and the new stuff is a (I think 40/60) silver/tin.  This stuff does not seem to flow as well as the Lead/Tin solder I  am used to using.  I'm unsure if lead/tin is still common place or if the silver stuff has become standard, but figured I'd mention that I notice a difference.  

JGL

It seems you can learn to do anything on the internet today.  There is either a documentary, or several You tube videos to watch and learn.

So it really is about what is comfortable to folks and what people like to do.  G

C W Burfle posted:

Unfortunately, I think the show promoter would have to concern him/her self with the possibility of being sued when someone burns themselves.

When I worked at Norfolk Naval Shipyard I was showing some helper mechanics how to unsolder components from a circuit board.  One of the helpers wrapped her hand around the wrong end of the iron, class dismissed.

It seemed like she held it for a long time, you know how everything goes in slow motion in a situation like that, but it was just a split second.  But by that time the damage was done.  She was a good helper and knew what to do, but in this case she simply didn't pay attention.

Point is it can happen faster than you can react, I would hate to (1) see a child get burned and (2) think of the consequences that would follow, just like CW says.

Oh, I've got the same Hakko soldering station as GRJ has, but I may have paid a bit more for mine.  I got it here:

https://www.adafruit.com/?q=hakko&

Adafruit is very fast on their deliveries and has a bunch of stuff on their website, plus it was founded by Limor Fried, a MIT engineer (I wonder if Big Bang Theory has ever considered having her on the show?).

Thanks for the information, since I am not happy with  my current results , a purchase is in the near future, I  always learn something from taking advice from  the folks on the FORUM.

Brent

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you don't get singed every few months, you're not soldering enough.

When I was a shop teacher, I taught the kids how to solder in my Electricity class.  One day I was leaning over the desk watching one of the students work.  I noticed the smell of smoke.  Seems like my necktie draped over a soldering iron and almost caught on fire!  The kids enjoyed "Mr. M's smoking tie incident"

PLCProf posted:

 As far as solder goes, for a beginner, I would use something like Kester 44 50/50, rosin core, 062. 50/50 is more forgiving, it has a small plastic range during which it will tolerate SLIGHT motion. It also fills gaps better than 63/37, which melts instantly and has no plastic range. For the beginner, I would stay away from lead-free and silver-bearing solders, they are considerably fussier than 50/50 or 63/37.

I'll have to disagree with the recommendations of 50/50 solder over the 63/37 solder.  One of the primary mistakes that novices make is moving the connection as it cools and creating a cold solder joint.  The benefit of 63/37 solder is that it is an eutectic alloy. It has the lowest melting point of all the common solders used in electronic work, and the melting point is not a range, thus reducing the possibility of creating the cold solder joint.  The plastic range is a liability IMO.

C W Burfle posted:

... concern ... when someone burns themselves.

if i was teaching someone, there's one bit of equipment i'd certainly have on hand which hasn't been mentioned yet...

a burn anywhere else should eventually heal.

Dale Manquen posted:

I think part of the problem with solder on the tip, rather than the workpiece, is that the flux gets burned off on the iron's tip and never reaches the workpiece.

Right, I only put a spot of solder on the tip to transfer heat to the work-piece, and then add solder to actually accomplish the task.

Forget anything that is not temperature controlled, those are good for woodburning sets and not much else.

None of my soldering irons are temperature controlled. If I am going to be doing a lot of soldering with pauses between joints, I plug the iron into a Dremel speed control and lower the power during idle times. The gear I have is mostly by Ungar: some Imperial line, some Standard line, and some Princess line. The standard line stuff has ceramic bodied heaters. It's all old stuff

If I was going to buy a new iron, I certainly would get a temperature controlled one.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

PLCProf posted:

 As far as solder goes, for a beginner, I would use something like Kester 44 50/50, rosin core, 062. 50/50 is more forgiving, it has a small plastic range during which it will tolerate SLIGHT motion. It also fills gaps better than 63/37, which melts instantly and has no plastic range. For the beginner, I would stay away from lead-free and silver-bearing solders, they are considerably fussier than 50/50 or 63/37.

I'll have to disagree with the recommendations of 50/50 solder over the 63/37 solder.  One of the primary mistakes that novices make is moving the connection as it cools and creating a cold solder joint.  The benefit of 63/37 solder is that it is an eutectic alloy. It has the lowest melting point of all the common solders used in electronic work, and the melting point is not a range, thus reducing the possibility of creating the cold solder joint.  The plastic range is a liability IMO.

No argument on your facts. My recommendation is based on watching people trying to solder those old terminal strips that were ubiquitous in tube radios, a bunch of oblong terminals staked to a phenolic strip. Many is the time I watched a learner put many inches of solder into a joint, while overheating that terminal and the ones around it, in an effort to "fill the hole like the picture." Most tutorials on soldering in those days showed a photo of a shiny completely- filled terminal as an example of a good soldering job. However, if there is a lot of clear space in the hole, and 63/37 is used, a good solder joint will not necessarily fill the hole completely. 50/50 made it easier to make a joint that "looked like the picture." 

Oh, all the excess solder ran down and formed a puddle at the bottom of the terminal, where it solidified but did not stick to the aluminum chassis, causing an intermittent short to ground. Troubleshooting delight!

Dale Manquen posted:

I think part of the problem with solder on the tip, rather than the workpiece, is that the flux gets burned off on the iron's tip and never reaches the workpiece.

Absolutely correct. My point is that beginners often mistakenly adopt a "religious zeal" about keeping solder off the tip!

I've seen the solder puddles, I could tell you stories!  

How about someone using a pound of solder to sweat one faucet on, and failing to stop the leaks!   The little mountain of solder on the floor was something to behold.  Took him two hours to create it, took me about three minutes to fix the issue.

overlandflyer posted:

C W Burfle posted:

... concern ... when someone burns themselves.

if i was teaching someone, there's one bit of equipment i'd certainly have on hand which hasn't been mentioned yet...

a burn anywhere else should eventually heal.

Having worked in the construction industry( admin position, not smart enough for the craft) for 40 years, this is the GREAT advice

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I've seen the solder puddles, I could tell you stories!  

How about someone using a pound of solder to sweat one faucet on, and failing to stop the leaks!   The little mountain of solder on the floor was something to behold.  Took him two hours to create it, took me about three minutes to fix the issue.

Yup - 

In my early days, I was doing electrical support for the refrigeration crew at Kodak. Witnessed a good one. 

Crew was installing a new environmental chamber, and part of the job was to run vertical freon lines to the condenser on the roof. Lines were 1 inch and 3 inches or thereabouts. Rule of thumb for pipefitters is that you need enough wire solder to go around the joint once, so soldering 3 inch copper pipe needs about 9 - 10 inches of solder per joint. New helper was given the job. After working a few hours on the first joint he went for another 5 lb roll of solder... problem was, all the excess dripped into the pipe, and they couldn't risk having all that loose stuff in the system, so they had to pull piping out until they could find and account for the first roll of solder.... Wasn't ordinary solder either, it was one of the high-strength ones refrigeration guys use.

A lot of screaming and hollering ensued.

I believe there are two types of solder stations.  One is the temperature-controlled type we have mentioned here that holds the tip at a constant temperature regardless of the heat being sucked out by the item that is being soldered. 

I think there are also variable-power types (that chop the AC waveform like our modern train controllers), but do not get temperature feedback from the soldering tip.  They are better than the old Radio Shack and Ungar types.  (In the old days I added a diode and switch so that the iron could idle on halfwave voltage.)

Was looking at the iron GRJ recommends and found http://www.amazon.ca/Hakko-FX8...ds=Hakko+FX888D-23BY

WTH???

Not the first time I've seen whacky, totally out-of-this-world, full order of magnitude too high prices on amazon. Never understand it.

This is NOT rare!!!

YIKES!

Must be some really large export fees!

Bob Delbridge posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Unfortunately, I think the show promoter would have to concern him/her self with the possibility of being sued when someone burns themselves.

Point is it can happen faster than you can react, I would hate to (1) see a child get burned and (2) think of the consequences that would follow, just like CW says.

During my stay in the Navy, I was sent away to be fully trained in the art and science of micro-mini repair. It was everything from footbal field long cables to patching up circuit cards that were made way back when Mr. Weller was but a lad. It was training that has served me well the 35 years since. However, there was an instance the training didn't quite cover. Human reaction.

I was working on a circuit card that required the use of a microscope. You kind of get used to having your head stuck in it - so setting the iron back in the holder is second nature. So - I did. But! Somehow I didn't get it all the way back in...and as I raised my head I rolled back a bit....and that iron came out of the holder, pulled across the table and in a micro-mini flash - it had fallen into my lap. Human reaction - being what it is -right or wrong - brought my knees together. 

From there, nobody - and I do mean NOBODY - from my Chief to the Air Force zoomies at the infirmary -  could assess my.....uh....situation ....without busting up laughing. Talk about getting your pride burned!    

Not wanting to top anybody's story, and I didn't want to bring this one up but...when my son was still in his walker (circa 1981), a big round contraption with 8 wheels, I had him beside me one day while I was soldering on my HO layout.

I turned my head to pick something up and you know what a burnt marshmallow smells like, that's what I smelled.  I snapped back around; he had pulled on the cord, yanking the iron down onto his shoulder and forearm before hitting the floor.

My wife was outside hanging clothes on the line and she could hear me screaming for her from upstairs.  Let me tell you I got interrogated at the ER for that mishap.  He still carries the 1/2 dollar-sized scar on his shoulder (now covered by tattoos of course) and a skid-type mark on his forearm.  He's a tough kid, never shed a tear.

Make sure your area is cleared before soldering!!!

Weird thing is the only burn I ever suffered from an iron was on a fingernail, that hurt like hell for weeks afterwards.

BReece posted:

overlandflyer posted:

C W Burfle posted:

... concern ... when someone burns themselves.

if i was teaching someone, there's one bit of equipment i'd certainly have on hand which hasn't been mentioned yet...

a burn anywhere else should eventually heal.

Having worked in the construction industry( admin position, not smart enough for the craft) for 40 years, this is the GREAT advice

it actually occurred to me when someone mentioned desoldering.  if a piece of solder wick isn't handy and the joint is movable (eg wires in free air) i have the probably bad habit of heating up the joint and then lightly flicking the wires.  99% of the time the molten solder follows gravity to the floor, but every so often a small bit will hit skin.

on the subject of auxiliary soldering needs, i already mentioned solder wick...

fairly self-explanatory.

but i also discovered the advantage of using a solder sponge at the same time i started using a temp-cont iron...

unlike the solid copper tipped irons i was used to up until that point, a temperature controlled iron should never be "refreshed" by filing the tip.  i've been using the same tip on my Weller iron for close to 40 years now and after it heats up and i hit the sponge, it still shines like new.  a clean tip is essential to a good joint.

cheers...gary