Sound for a Williams Cab Forward

Modern Toy Train Parts is where I'd start.

There should be enough room in there to rent out.

Is that the actual name of the business.  I can't get a match.

When it comes to the hardware part of it, it would chiefly depend on your expectations.

QSI developed an aftermarket conventional sound and DCRU unit that included the distinctive sounds of the cab forward (I have one such example in my collection).  The sounds are dead-on accurate (whistle but no air horn sounds, air compressor sounds active in motion as well as at a standstill, and the sound of the articulated steam engines going in and out of synch).  But again, it's conventional, and not sure how easy it would be to find one that's operable as those were made long, long ago and are no longer commercially available for 3-rail operation.

You could also upgrade it to PS2 where you'll have all the same dead-on accurate sounds as above but also with the air horn sound and will also operate with DCS in command mode.

From a TMCC/Legacy perspective, I don't believe Lionel/ERR has the cab forward Railsounds boards commercially available, and if they did, it would have a close-but-no-cigar whistle, air compressor sounds that are only heard at standstill, and doesn't really have a convincing in/out of sync chuff, but would have the correct horn.

Timko, J.D.S Limited are a couple of commercial services that could do it.  Some forum members like George (GGG) or Marty Fitzhenry could probably do it for you as well as they're both service techs.

John,

This is an older brass Williams Cab Forward.  Right now it has now sound system at all.  I am good at many things on with my trains, but I am not an electronic wizard.  Could the PS2 upgrade still be installed?  There is plenty of room in the tender.  Tnx, Matt

Yeah, I could tell by the description and picture; they were from back in 1994 or thereabouts that was one of the locomotives central to the infamous Williams warehouse "blowout" that ticked off a bunch of owners and retailers that paid full or close to full retail price on them. 

I actually have two of that exact same engine, one of them has the aforementioned aftermarket QSI unit in it that I set aside for a future superdetailing project; the other one is for spare parts.  I haven't done a thing with them since getting my scale Lionel cab forward as that's become my preferred runner as it's a more accurate representation of an AC-12 and I'll probably convert it to PS2 since I don't like the inaccurate sounds on it).

The tender does have plenty of room as you indicated, and there's enough room in the locomotive shell (which is easy enough to remove from the chassis) to put an MTH smoke unit in it with some tweaking.  So yes, I'd say it's doable.

The only issue I see is that the motor/gearbox is fairly noisy as was common with some of the engines from that period, so it might interfere somewhat with the overall sound experience.  I don't recall how big of a flywheel it has on it either, and that may potentially complicate the install of the PS2 timing tape, but am only speculating since I haven't cracked mine open in quite some time.

Well...I got this for a great price and it's probably gonna be my only cab forward for now.  So...I'd like to make it as accurate as possible for what it is.  I am not that familiar with all of SP's cab forwards.  Is it supposed to be prototypical of an AC-12?  Can you also recommend other detail parts that make it more accurate?  Thanks for your help.  Matt 

Well the Williams cab forward in its stock appearance seems to be more of a hybrid between an AC-6 and an AC-12.  The locomotive itself with the existing piping detail and lack of the long horizontal blowdown spreaders actually looks more like an AC-6 with later-period boxpok drivers instead of standard spoked drivers the AC-6s had and with an AC-11/12 style cab front.  But keeping it in perspective the model was pretty good for the period.

I've ordered most of the detail parts for the cab forward from Lionel (would have to be modified for installation on a Williams), some parts from Berkshire Valley, others I made myself from brass hollow or solid round stock of various diameters.

I'd also get it repainted to get rid of the silver color on the firebox sides and the smokebox in addition to blackening the red side window pillars too if you want to make it look more accurate.  Williams painted their 4294 cab forward model as the prototype looked for a period of time when it was stored outside at SP's Sacramento yards after retirement and prior to being cosmetically restored back to its original appearance and moved permanently into the Sacramento Railroad Museum. The smokebox front and sides along with the firebox grating area (bottom horizontal edges of the firebox) should be more of a graphite/gunmetal color to reflect it in its operational or restored appearance. 

The silver on the cab front can remain the way it is, or you could even repaint it black if you want to model it prior to 1946 when SP began to paint the lower part of the cab silver for better visibility at grade crossings.  You could also use some locomotive black to accentuate the screens on the front by painting the screen black within the simulated framing and then very lightly wipe the black off from the raised areas so the recessed areas are dark to achieve a see-through effect.

Go to www.the-scaled-tin-rail.com and look around.

Tnx for the great info, John.  I already looked into 3 places that will put a sound system in it.  I'll also look into painting.  Matt

Hi Matt, go to Electric Railroad. http://www.electricrr.com/

They are in the bay area so you could drive your engine there. Don

FWIW, the generic sounds available with RailSounds 4 probably won't be as pleasing as installing the MTH PS/2 upgrade in this one.  I intended to install the RailSounds in mine, but I like the sounds available for the cab forward with the PS/2 a lot more than anything I saw I could get for the RailSounds upgrade.

True, and as I mentioned earlier, I don't believe that the cab forward sounds have ever been available in the aftermarket TMCC kits.  The first cab forward Lionel came out with was the scale one in 2005, with the Lionmaster coming out about 2 years later; both with RailSounds 5.0.

While Don above is correct that you could still upgrade it to TMCC, you won't get the cab forward-distinctive sounds, especially the air compressor sounds.

I've a pair of these and looked into having them converted to one of the systems.

I was informed it was a real problem to upgrade them due to the connection between the tender and the rear deck of the locomotive, so I put it on the real back burner.

Has anyone done on of these and found a way to deal with the connector issue?

This is one of the big problems with the early brass steam locomotives by either Williams, Weaver, or Sunset/3rd Rail. An additional factor is, make sure that the motor has a flywheel! I have an older Sunset/3rd Rail model of the C&O T-1 2-10-4 which I explored up-grading to MTH PS-2. Discovered it was too difficult, so I went with TMCC EOB by the former Train America Studios.

Which specific models do you have?  I can't imagine they'd be any different than most other steamers.  I'm sure the tether can be accommodated without too much trouble.

EOB requires a flywheel also.  What would be more difficult for PS/2 than TAS EOB?

Electronics is not one of my favorite parts of the hobby to dabble in so that's why I was looking to see if someone could do it.  I did make contact with Jeff at JDS Ltd.  He said he could put in a PS2 upgrade which includes a sound system, speed control, etc.  He could also put in a Protosmoke unit that would give me sychonized fan driven smoke.  Apparently right now the engine only has a "seuthe" (whatever that means) smoke unit in it.  Matt

Seuthe smoke units have been the standard for Williams for decades.  Seuthe is a German company and they provide smoke units for almost all scales.  It's basically just a cylindrical metal heating chamber that relies on the heat generated by the unit to push the evaporated smoke out of the stack rather than use a motorized fan.  Pretty basic, but no synchronized puffing and sometimes the smoke output can be somewhat anemic by today's standards.  It also is persnickety when it comes to the type of smoke fluid used; it prefers a low-viscosity type of fluid and most commercially available smoke fluids like from MTH, Lionel, etc. can cause it to clog.  Either Seuthe/Seuthe rebranded for Williams, or LGB smoke fluids are the preferred ones, although I've heard that JT's Megasteam will work okay with Seuthe units too.

First thing I replace on a Williams steamer of any description is that spitting smoke unit!  JT's MegaSteam works OK, but even that spits at times.  Of course, the lack of decent smoke volume and only continuous smoke makes it a loser for a modern conversion anyway.

Both of mine sit in the boxes ... and might for a while.

When I first asked a train mechanic about converting it as described above, I couldn't get the cost to justify for a locomotive that goes for not much on the open market.  Isn't this the engine Jerry dumped on the market for 1/2 price?  I remember being po'ed at something like that at the time after paying full bore from Williams for them shortly before the dump.

Maybe I'm thinking of a different situation ... just seemed familiar ...

Have to admit, I do enjoy my Proto 2 upgraded Gas Turbine set even though it was expensive to have done.  Guess it's just what one prefers which counts.

The parts will end up being at least $200, that's the smoke unit and the PS/2 kit.  So, depending on the complexity of fitting the tether, you're looking at at least $300, so it won't be cheap.

Original MSRP was around $1200 when they were first offered, Williams blew them out for about half or little more than half of that price shortly afterwards, so you can imagine how that irked early buyers and hobby stores that bought them for resale.

Good case of justifying the upgrade expense.  The more detailing you put on it, the closer you can make it resemble an AC-12.  There are lots of prototype and model pictures of 4294 and other AC-12s out there on the web for a reference.

I have 2 Williams AC-12's and I had them both re-detailed. Piping was added to the sand domes, under the cab on the right side, alot of piping on the smokebox front, extended the handrail to around the front of the smoke box, slanting gutters on the roof of the cab, the large C-shaped pipe on the rear right side, mechanical lubricators, blow-offs, piping under the monkey deck, redid the piping the the left side under the cab, all of the grab irons on top of the tender and railing on the front of the tender.  I re-painted the firebox and smokebox areas and re-decaled one to 4272 with the older SOUTHERN PACIFIC LINES on the tender. Some more additional piping on the boiler behind the cab and under the running board on the left side. I dull-coated everything and even added Floquil grimy black to the drivers and trucks of the engine and tender.  I run these alot and I have had them for over 20 years.  They now compare favorably to the 1993 Sunset engines, the KTM 1968 engines.  They are still not quite as good as Lionel's scale cab forward, but look far better than the MTH AC-6.  I plan to add detail to this one also.  Although i paid list price when they came out in 1990, I still do not regret buying them. They are rugged and well built.

Robert,

Got some pictures of them you could share?

FWIW, comparing the Lionel scale AC-12 to the MTH AC-6 is not really a full apples-to-apples comparison.  They are both different classes with the AC-6 being an earlier-generation cab forward with less plumbing and other detail differences/inclusions and omissions compared to the AC-12.

Actually, you are correct because the MTH AC-6 looks like the one fresh from Baldwin in 1930.  Robert Church's book has a nice shot and it doesn't have that much plumbing.  I would like to get some shots of my 6 cab forwards and figure out how to get them on this forum.  I read somewhere that the new Key AC's are going for $7000+.  This is way out my my meager retirement funds, especially since I just purchased Sunset's 2-rail Jawn Henry.

To answer the question about why the blow out: Jerry Williams got into some financial difficulty with another of his businesses and decided to raise capital quickly by blowing out 3 engines and some matching passenger sets. Those engines were the SP Cab forward, the NYC Niagara, and if memory serves, the N&W J. I got burned on the Niagara. Williams decided to risk ticking off a whole bunch of loyal customers when he went with the blowout. I believe he was able to raise the necessary funds, but it burnt his customer base for years. I refused to buy anything Williams for over 10 years just because of that. That really was too bad for him and the industry as a whole, as he had been producing high quality brass steamers that beat the pants off of anything out there then at the price.

Chris

LVHR

I still have the "1990 special" catalogue

SP Cab Forward $749 (save $646)

N&W J $549 (save $301)

NYC Niagara $549 (save $301)

apparently "...the market has weakened and we are now overstocked"

"Remember Williams is far and away the leader in brass scale railroad equipment"

That's the one.

After that trick by Jerry I never bought another Williams product.

Wonder how many others walked away from Williams because of that action ...

Must have had some impact on his business.

Well, you gotta' do what you gotta' do.  If he really needed money fast, maybe that was the only way he had of raising it quickly.

Robert,

If you've already got pictures taken with a digital camera you can send them to me using my email in my profile and I can post them for you.

I have to ask:

Justified frustration aside, would it have been a better decision for him not to raise the cash and possibly risk going out of business?  Cash flow is a huge component to a healthy business, without it you are dead in the water.  Sounds like for him this was a cash flow issue.  I would be willing to bet he didn't approach it lightly and that he may have technically taken a loss.

It's a possibility that there was an eminent threat of going out of business if he didn't raise that capital quickly anyway.  Only he knows, and I wouldn't anticipate he would offer a detailed explanation of why he went with that decision anyway.  The brass products was just one part of his overall train product line, and he possibly figured those that bought his brass items did not represent the majority of his customers, so he could afford the risk of p***ing off a few versus p***ing off everyone.

Or very well his justification was that the brass portion offered the quickest and largest possible solution to a cash flow issue.  It just appears to me people are taking something very personally that may very well not be as the picture is painted.

Many times there are bankers and other entities involved in these types of decisions. This most likely was not his decision alone.  There are subtle clues that paint a very likely picture much different than he just didn't care who he made mad.

There is likely very good justification as to the hows and why's which, once analyzed and emotions put aside, was the most logical and proper step to resolve whatever issue he was facing.

You can get an articulated sound set for Railsounds to use with ERR RailSounds Commander.

Jan

Yes, but as was previously mentioned it won't have the cab-forward specific whistle, horn and air compressor sounds.

That sound board is the only one I haven't heard out of all the ERR available sounds, but I had heard that it wasn't all that impressive, so I discounted it as an option.

Matt;

If you wanted to stay conventional operation I have a QSI PS-1 board recently removed from an MTH Railking cabforward. It has the correct sounds and whistle.

Yours for $40

Rod

John,

     I do not have a digital camera at this time, but I want to get one and take some pictures.  I am also on Facebook and I have pictures of a few of my engines there, but not a cab forward.  I will have to figure out a way to get the pictures on the forum.