Southern Pacific (Daylight) w/ & w/o "Lines"?

As you discovered, The Southern Pacific dropped the use of the word "Lines" in 1946. It didn't take them very long to re-paint/re-letter the vast majority of their locomotives, passenger cars, and freight equipment (probably a year and a half). However, the elimination of the "lines" did NOT have anything to do with the NAMES of their various passenger trains, i.e. the "Daylight" was still the "Daylight", the "Lark" was still the "Lark", the "sunset Limited" was still the "Sunset Limited, etc., etc., etc.. 

Hope this helps clear things up for you.

HW,

I guess then that either "Southern Pacific Lines" or just "Southern Pacific" would be OK for a model. I wonder if one is more desirable than the other, or maybe it is just a question of taste? 

Any idea why SP dropped the 'Lines'?

Thanks for your help!

Alex

It depends on your modelling preferences.  If you're primarily modelling "prewar" (pre-1946/48) then it would be "Southern Pacific Lines."  If you are more into the "postwar" era of modelling then it would be just "Southern Pacific."

The postwar "Southern Pacific" for the Daylight paint scheme has been shown to be more preferential to buyers (including  myself) because postwar "Southern Pacific" lettering encompasses a wider timeline, including the height of the steam/diesel transition period (GS Northerns and Alco PAs & E8s for Daylight trains for example), and while the Daylight scheme "officially" lasted until about 1958 you could still see some equipment retaining the Daylight scheme up until the mid 1960s.  With the prewar "lines" period, it was confined mostly to the 1937-1946/48 period and mainline motive power pulling them would predominantly be steam.

In regards to your last question, I believe there were two reasons they dropped the word "Lines."  One was due to them having consolidated a lot of their subsidies ("lines") by then like the Central Pacific, T&O, the San Diego, Arizona & Eastern, etc.  The other, which I think is probably the bigger reason, was because it's simpler (one less word to stencil/paint).     

John is mostly correct, plus the MUCH larger SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering on the sides of locomotive tenders was MUCH MORE visible.

It all depends on the era, or time frame you are modeling. Since I model the mid 1950s, all my Southern Pacific steam locomotives have the large "billboard" SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering. I have even had a custom painter buddy of mine change the lettering on the tenders of the Lionel AC-9 2-8-8-4 and the MTH Cab Forward, from the "lines" lettering to the big SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering, in order to better fit my era.

John, HW -

That all makes perfect sense. I run my new Lionel GS-2 (Southern Pacific Lines) with Lionel Daylight Shasta cars (Southern Pacific), which is an obvious mismatch. But most people that come visit my layout, actually 89% of the overall so far, are not savvy in these matters or finer details, and really like the train just as it is. I like it too.

But I may get an MTH GS-4, and if I do so, I would like the cars I get (MTH also) to match. Maybe both will be Southern Pacific - - depending on availability and actual release dates.

Thank  you very much for the info!

Alex

A late observation to this thread.  There are many photos on the Internet of Southern Pacific GS steam engines painted in black with the large "Southern Pacific" lettering on the tender.

Here is 4455 in black with large tender lettering:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__TkY...SHZCNA/s1600/gg1.jpg

(Note the absence of side skirting).

4447 in a classic pose with black and large "Southern Pacific" lettering near Carlsbad Caverns National Park in southern New Mexico:

http://www.railpictures.net/im.../3076.1356540977.jpg

(Note the absence of side skirting).

 Kato made some N Gauge wartime black GS-4s (4431 and 4438) with the small "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering on the tender.  4431 and 4438 would have been among the first GS-4s delivered in 1941 just months before the attack on Pearl Harbor.  They may have spent very little time in Daylight colors before being painted black so as not to attract the attention of carrier based enemy aircraft.  The Kato black GS-4s show side skirting which was likely removed postwar for those GS-4s being transitioned to freight service with dieselization.  Kato also produced 4450 in Daylight colors with the small "Southern Pacific Lines" on the tender.  

Kato GS-4s:

http://www.katousa.com/N/GS-4/index.html

https://www.katousa.com/N/GS-4/126-0303.jpg

The MTH GS-4 (4444) has the larger Southern Pacific lettering on the all black tender while Lionel GS-2 no. 4415 and GS-4 4436 have the small "lines" lettering on Daylight tenders.

The MTH GS-4 also does not have side skirting:

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/20-3485-2

Lionel GS-2 4415:

http://lionelllc.files.wordpre...2/11/6-11420_gs2.jpg

Lionel GS-4 4436:

http://www.lionel.com/Products...neID=&CatalogId=

A prior MTH issue of a GS-2, 4413, also had large "Southern Pacific" lettering on a black tender and no side skirting while 4412 has small "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering on a Daylight tender.

MTH GS-2 4413:

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/20-3061-1

The catalog version of 4412 shows large "Southern Pacific" tender lettering but a photo of the actual model in a current eBay auction shows the model was actually produced with the small "Southern Pacific Lines" tender lettering.

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/20-3060-1

3rd Rail made wartime black GS-4 no. 4445 in black with the small "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering on the tender:

http://www.3rdrail.com/images/gs4-black.jpg

MTH currently offers 4449 in Daylight colors in large "Southern Pacific" and small "Southern Pacific Lines" tender lettering.

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/20-3484-1

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/20-3483-1

Lionel GS-2 no. 4412 in black has a medium-sized "Southern Pacific" lettering with side skirting.  This locomotive may have looked better with the small "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering as in the Kato models.

http://www.cttrains.com/Lionel_Pictures/6-11419.jpg

With 4449 and 4450 being delivered in spring 1942 I would wonder if they started their careers in black paint.  The only photos I have seen of either with the small "lines" tender lettering is from a recent repaint of 4449 following her restoration to operating condition.  I plan to purchase the following book to gain some more photos of the final generation of Southern Pacific steam:

http://www.sphtsstore.org/serv...1940-dsh-1957/Detail

The cover photo shows another GS-4 (4443) in wartime paint with the large tender lettering (and no side skirting).  Perhaps the black paint scheme survived for some time into the postwar era.

Accucraft made the GS-5 in Gauge One in live steam in Daylight colors with small "lines" lettering and in postwar black with large "Southern Pacific" lettering and no side skirting:

http://www.accucraft.com/modelc/AL97-005-C.htm

4458 was delivered in 1942 and is shown here in Daylight colors with the large "Southern Pacific" lettering:

http://abpr.railfan.net/august98/08-21-98/4lsb2.jpg

(Note the black headlight rings and engine number frames on the nose - 4449 was painted with the black headlight rings as a variation following reactivation).

If you want to model a wartime train, go for a black model with small "lines" tender lettering and side skirting.  A prewar or early postwar train could see a GS locomotive with small tender lettering in Daylight colors.  Later postwar trains would probably be led by GS-4s with large tender lettering or, if the GS remained in black paint, a GS without side skirting.

They have been released, btw. All four engines are in stock at our place, and the passenger cars are on a pallet heading to us from MTH. I can do ten percent off and free shipping on the engine plus cars. Please call us at 317.569.1999 or order online by clicking through our link in the banner. Thanks.

Most, if not all of the pictures of engines painted black with large lettering were taken in the '50s when diesels had taken over on the name trains. 

Some years back I got a good deal on an MTH "WP GS-64" 4-8-4  - except that MTH used the SP GS-4 tooling, put on a WP-style smokebox front and painted it for WP.

So, when I undertook to correct all this - I got a GS-4 MARS-light boiler front to mount and some SP decals - I researched which loco I wanted to emulate and I chose #4447 after looking through numerous photos - and discovered while numbering the loco that SP sometimes put NO ROAD NAME AT ALL on the GS-4 tenders.

This went on a while; not sure that it was permanent, but I have photos of the 4447

in service with a big, black unlettered tender. So, that's what mine has.

Decaling is a lot easier when you don't have to do it.