TexasSP posted:What advantage is there to having 4014 operational over 3985? What advantages is there to having 3985 operation over 4014?
Purely public relations. Even people with a small knowledge of railroads know that a Big Boy is a big deal.
Wow! Thanks for the correction. I was half-afraid it was 1987.
That is a pathetic track record.
Strasburg was the logical place to send 1361, but I'm afraid logic had very little to do with the decision.
I wonder if it will run again in my lifetime.
George
As has been previously reported - Steamtown's involvement with the 1361's rebuild was simply to provide shop facilities. From that perspective it had a significant space advantage over Strasburg - whose facilities at times are heavily engaged with maintaining it's own roster. The actual work on 1361 was done by a company under a contract awarded by the University of Scranton. Costly mistakes were made by a number of parties, both the contractor and by those managing the contract. One costly critical error was that 1361's new crown sheet was fabricated and installed using stay bolt location/spacing per 1917 PRR K4s specifications/drawings. Unfortunately those design specs do not meet today's more rigorous FRA boiler regulations. When Strasburg fabricated a new crown sheet for LIRR #39 they faced a similar issue, but were smart enough to address it. As I recall from a shop tour briefing. the Strasburg crew used the original PRR G5 design's stay bolt location/spacing but strengthened the boiler by using thicker steel plate when forming the crown sheet.
In retrospect it would have been far better to have Strasburg's experienced steam crew engaged in the project. But that is water over the dam. The tough nut now for both the 1361 K4s and 39 G5 projects is fund raising. Both groups have track records of failing to deliver on publicly announced objectives. As a result many former donors (including state & local organizations) no longer respond to fund raising campaigns.
This may have been addressed before, but, where is the "other" K4s that survived the scrappers torch, the #3750?
The 3750 is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg.
Bob
CNJ 3676 posted:The 3750 is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg.
Bob
Thanks cnj 3676, I wonder if there's any interest in restoring her to an operational state?
CNJ 3676 posted:The 3750 is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg.
I had a discussion with some of the museum people there last fall when I was there the most recent time. I was told that the 'other' K4 isn't in that great a shape and that it probably would never be restored for operation. Frankly, that museum used to allow their stuff to be ran and steamed up (I guess by the Strasburg RR across the street), but not for a very long time.
Penn-Pacific posted:CNJ 3676 posted:The 3750 is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg.
Bob
Thanks cnj 3676, I wonder if there's any interest in restoring her to an operational state?
No, since the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is a true museum, and does not operate anything.
Thanks for the info guys, so I guess that means that I got a better chance of hitting the lottery than seeing a K4 operating live and in person.....
Hot Water posted:Penn-Pacific posted:CNJ 3676 posted:The 3750 is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg.
Bob
Thanks cnj 3676, I wonder if there's any interest in restoring her to an operational state?
No, since the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is a true museum, and does not operate anything.
3750 has been sitting outside the museum for a LONG time. The Pennsylvania Museum does a fantastic job of static restoration. However they are out of room for displayed locomotives indoors. Returning this locomotive to the rails would be nothing short of a miracle...
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J Daddy posted:Hot Water posted:Penn-Pacific posted:CNJ 3676 posted:The 3750 is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg.
Bob
Thanks cnj 3676, I wonder if there's any interest in restoring her to an operational state?
No, since the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is a true museum, and does not operate anything.
3750 has been sitting outside the museum for a LONG time. The Pennsylvania Museum does a fantastic job of static restoration. However they are out of room for displayed locomotives indoors. Returning this locomotive to the rails would be nothing short of a miracle...
Yes, I think the museum completed a nice cosmetic restoration in the early 2000s and then got whip-sawed by a regulation or directive to remove the PCBs and asbestos in the jackets. I think that was done for all the Pennsy steamers and then they were left outside awaiting the much delayed roundhouse. Bad luck and bad timing. At least I hope that's all it was.
George
Our Williamsburg area model RR club (The Ford's Colony Model RR Club - 54 members strong) arranged shop tours at both the RR Museum of Pennsylvania and the Strasburg RR last month. We learned that the two shops look at steam locomotives from very different perspectives. The Museum's perspective is historic preservation. Their volunteer restoration shop crew did a fantastic job in bringing E6s Atlantic 460 back to appear as she looked near the end of her service in the 1950's. This required major work to replace rusted away metal on the cab and tender. Effort was not expended to make the boiler operational, although they have plans to put the engine on rollers so that the drivers and valve gear can move.
The Strasburg focus is rebuilding/maintaining their roster of steam locomotives to a safe operational status for hauling tourists (on a for profit basis). Their shop buildings are jam packed with an assortment of fully functional old heavy machinery. As capacity allows, they do rebuilding work on a contract basis for other railroads. During our tour we heard that they have plans to expand their shop facilities and hire additional workers. With the railroad and the museum being directly across the street from each other, they mutually benefit in attracting visitors. There was a time when the Strasburg Railroad did operate and maintain two of the museums locomotives - PRR D16sb 4-4-0 and E7s 4-4-2. On at least one special occasion they ran a double header fan trip from Strasburg to Harrisburg featuring a fantastic photo run-by over the Rockville Bridge. During Q&A with the museum's guides no interest was expressed in using Strasburg RR's resources to restore any of the museum's collection of PRR power for operational use.
Today the museum's M1b, L1s, K4s, H10's, and GG1 Old Rivets sit outside rusting away on tracks across the street from the Strasburg RR station - a sad sight for any SPF! The good news is that the museum was recently funded to build a new 7 stall roundhouse which when complete will enable them to bring all the PRR motive power under cover. Using largely volunteer labor it may take a decade or so to cosmetically restore the 4 PRR steam locomotives, but at least in the meantime they will be out of the elements.
Hello Kelly, been away from the computer, but yes you are right they have a lot to be desired there is no doubt about that.
Maybe the problem is there are TOO many steam organizations which want their engine to run. Example, why TWO LIRR 4-6-0's? Maybe better for both to join forces, have one runner, one display!
Dominic Mazoch posted:Maybe the problem is there are TOO many steam organizations which want their engine to run. Example, why TWO LIRR 4-6-0's? Maybe better for both to join forces, have one runner, one display!
I doubt those two groups even TALK to one another, let alone ever willing to "join forces".
Dominic Mazoch posted:Maybe the problem is there are TOO many steam organizations which want their engine to run. Example, why TWO LIRR 4-6-0's? Maybe better for both to join forces, have one runner, one display!
Okay, imagine this:
You're a member of one of those groups (never mind which one). Someone comes up and suggests this. Your first inclination is going to be, "Okay, the other group can quit their work and come work on our locomotive." And you just know someone on the other group will have the exact same thought in their own perspective, for you to stop your work and come work on their loco instead.
It's so easy to say stuff like this when it's not your blood-sweat and tears spent over a long period of time.
Actually, I HAVE walked away from such a situation, because I thought the organization was going in a way which was not substainable. Hard choice, but have been happy after I walked away. Sorry, but I now have a life philosophy that if a hobby, organization, or interest becomes more important than a job, family or self, or brainwashes a person's thinking, it is time to walk away!
Dominic Mazoch posted:Actually, I HAVE walked away from such a situation, because I thought the organization was going in a way which was not substainable. Hard choice, but have been happy after I walked away.
Yeah, but you did it alone, right?
I'm talking about the entire group saying, "Yeah, we'll give up our dream so the other group gets theirs".
That, I do not see happening.
From my observations and correspondence with people on both sides of the street in Strasburg, PA the issue with operating museum pieces comes down to the "historical accuracy" of the locomotive. Essentially back in the late 80s/early 90s (I think that's the correct approx. date) when 1223 and 7002 were due for firebox and boiler work the RR Museum of PA objected heavily to the SRC removing "historical" pieces of metal that were original from when the locomotive was last rehauled in the steam era by the PRR.
Even with the SRC's mechanical department vehemently explaining that they could not operate without the fixes the RR Museum of PA would not budge on their call and thus the lease for both the 1223 and 7002 was ended and the two locomotives were returned and sit where they do now in the main hall of the museum.
It's a darn shame that the RR Museum of PA continues to have this attitude and thus refuses to entertain any idea of operating historical pieces of equipment even though, like others have already mentioned, some of the most historical are rotting away outside. I have hope though that once a new generation begins to take over the museum management we will see more opportunities for the SRC to have historic PRR steam. I want to get my hopes up for the LIRR #39 but I highly doubt she'll get enough funds to get her to steam again.
p51 posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Actually, I HAVE walked away from such a situation, because I thought the organization was going in a way which was not substainable. Hard choice, but have been happy after I walked away.
Yeah, but you did it alone, right?
I'm talking about the entire group saying, "Yeah, we'll give up our dream so the other group gets theirs".
That, I do not see happening.
N&W J 611 belonged to one organization, and was fixed in the shop of another. IT STEAMS. Two organizations in PA, which are across the street from each other cannot, so some possible working steam DOES NOT!
Adapt or die!
Dominic Mazoch posted:p51 posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Actually, I HAVE walked away from such a situation, because I thought the organization was going in a way which was not substainable. Hard choice, but have been happy after I walked away.
Yeah, but you did it alone, right?
I'm talking about the entire group saying, "Yeah, we'll give up our dream so the other group gets theirs".
That, I do not see happening.
N&W J 611 belonged to one organization, and was fixed in the shop of another.
As usual, you are a bit confused. The FORMER MEMBERS of the N&W/NS Steam Crew performed the FRA mandated 15 year boiler inspection on 611. Just because the actual work was performed at the Historic Spencer Shops, in North Carolina had nothing to do with the politics of other steam groups around the U.S..
IT STEAMS. Two organizations in PA, which are across the street from each other cannot, so some possible working steam DOES NOT!
Adapt or die!
645 posted:PRR 1223 and 7002 were removed from service by the Strasburg RR when it was discovered the metal thickness of the boilers was very thin in certain areas. The proper fix was to construct new boilers or do patch repairs. IIRC this all came about when the Strasburg got an ultrasound measuring device and they were simply playing around with it to learn how it operated. It was not deemed in the best interest of safety to continue operating 1223 and 7002 - literally overnight they were pulled from service, stored then after some months went by were returned to the museum. As the Strasburg only leased the engines from the museum it would have meant spending money on something they did not own which was another factor to retire 1223 and 7002. Was not aware the museum had objections to patching/replacing the boilers due to "compromising" historical accuracy as posted above but understand the museum's reasoning here in a preservation context.
Multiple officials who worked at the SRC at the time have stated that the RR Museum of PA objected heavily to the boiler work due to the loss of "historical" metal pieces original to the steam days. Doesn't make much sense to me, but I'm not the one writing the checks so to speak.
1223 and 7002 belong to the museum and they get to set the terms. Plus, I'd wager they don't want to have to deal with the liability issues for operating locomotives.
Rusty
Very true Rusty! But just logically speaking here, if you were the head of the museum and your goal was to preserve and maintain PRR steam in the state wouldn't think it would be okay for the SRC to keep the locomotives up and running in order to maintain that status quo?
PennsyPride94 posted:Very true Rusty! But just logically speaking here, if you were the head of the museum and your goal was to preserve and maintain PRR steam in the state wouldn't think it would be okay for the SRC to keep the locomotives up and running in order to maintain that status quo?
Preservation does not equal operation.
After all, the U505 at Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry is hardly seaworthy anymore...
Rusty
PennsyPride94 posted:Very true Rusty! But just logically speaking here, if you were the head of the museum and your goal was to preserve and maintain PRR steam in the state wouldn't think it would be okay for the SRC to keep the locomotives up and running in order to maintain that status quo?
In my opinion, the quick answer would be, no. Remember, museums with "static" historic displays are all about originality of their truly "historic pieces". Thus, such curators would want ANY "modern" components or modifications in order to make any of their "historic pieces" operational. For example, the 4449 crew has been scolded for all the numerous up-grades and modern enhancements made to make her more reliable for long over-the-road main line steam trips. Modern up-grades, such as roller bearings on the engine truck, trailing truck, and tenders, addition of MU capabilities with trailing diesel units, and the addition of circulators to the firebox, all resulted in negative comments from profession museum curators about how the "originality of an SP GS-4 was degraded".
The continuing differences of opinions between professional museum curators and "operators" of historic equipment, no mater whether it is aircraft, trains, automobiles, or tractors, will continue forever.
Well Jack be honest with me, do you really think those SP historians really understand the operation behind the 4449 in today's world to say something like that? If I was SP historian I would be sure as heck happy to see the 4449 still operating to this day regardless of whether it had roller bearings on the engine truck. 
I guess different perspectives, different motives, but to me its splitting hairs.
I also feel that sometimes preservation groups have this control mechanism of rivet counting that eventually gets in the way of others enjoyment of the piece.
PennsyPride94 posted:Well Jack be honest with me, do you really think those SP historians really understand the operation behind the 4449 in today's world to say something like that? If I was SP historian I would be sure as heck happy to see the 4449 still operating to this day regardless of whether it had roller bearings on the engine truck.
To be clear, they were NOT "SP historians". One individual was from the Smithsonian in Washington DC! We have NEVER had any issues with the "SP historian" crowd.
I also feel that sometimes preservation groups have this control mechanism of rivet counting that eventually gets in the way of others enjoyment of the piece.
A prime example is the poor PRR K4s #1361, at Altoona.
PennsyPride94 posted:Well Jack be honest with me, do you really think those SP historians really understand the operation behind the 4449 in today's world to say something like that? If I was SP historian I would be sure as heck happy to see the 4449 still operating to this day regardless of whether it had roller bearings on the engine truck.
I also feel that sometimes preservation groups have this control mechanism of rivet counting that eventually gets in the way of others enjoyment of the piece.
Not sure it's "splitting hairs." Museum folks are in the business of "preservation." That's just what they do--preserve as much as possible the historic fabric for future generations, even if that means something is to remain inoperable. Why is this a bad thing?
With the costs of restoring historical items to operation, maybe a "Plan B" is to restore the item to historical display in climate controlled conditions. Then have a live steam plus power point displays to explain steam to the people?
The Sioux City Ia. museum group is using what is left of the big Milwaukee road roundhouse, (now with a new roof courtesy of a grant) for their very worthwhile displays. Inside they have a very nice Great Northern steam loco, which is cosmetically restored and available for viewing right up to the cab. This steamer was originally sitting outside in downtown Sioux City in the 50s, deteriorating as one would expect. So I am so glad the group grabbed this opportunity when it arose. No plans to put under steam. Other projects such as restoration of buildings, the museum grounds (which are fairly large) and odd rolling stock takes their time and cash. They are currently looking for help to lay track for a small RR train and cars (they call it 15 inch) to tour the grounds. Over a mile of track is proposed. Stop in if you get that way. Sioux City, surprisingly had 5 RRs to town at one time if my memory serves me correctly. They have a web site. By way of comparison, Omaha I believe is limited to the two big engines sitting outside and fenced off, and the nice UP museum in an office building in Council Bluffs and the nice Durham museum (old union station) in Omaha.
smd4 posted:PennsyPride94 posted:Well Jack be honest with me, do you really think those SP historians really understand the operation behind the 4449 in today's world to say something like that? If I was SP historian I would be sure as heck happy to see the 4449 still operating to this day regardless of whether it had roller bearings on the engine truck.
I also feel that sometimes preservation groups have this control mechanism of rivet counting that eventually gets in the way of others enjoyment of the piece.
Not sure it's "splitting hairs." Museum folks are in the business of "preservation." That's just what they do--preserve as much as possible the historic fabric for future generations, even if that means something is to remain inoperable. Why is this a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing, but it is splitting hairs when the museum group goes "okay you can have our historical piece and operate it as a living history item" and then when major maintenance and work has to be done turns around and says "Oh no don't do that! We want the 'historical' fabric remaining". You either have an operating item or you don't. It think its unreasonable for an organization to tell an operating business "Ok" and then when work needs to be done to preserve its operation they say "No". I realize with every lease (like in the SRC and RR Museum of PA case) the owners have the final say, but to me its just being overly difficult.
And its really not preservation if the pieces are sitting outside exposed to the elements oxidizing away.
PennsyPride94 posted:
And its really not preservation if the pieces are sitting outside exposed to the elements oxidizing away.
Right... So RRMoP, IRM and others should just pack up all those rusting hulks and send them off to the scrappers, which is were many of these things would have gone to decades ago had these organizations not intervened.
Rusty
PennsyPride94 posted:And its really not preservation if the pieces are sitting outside exposed to the elements oxidizing away.
I volunteer at the RRMoP, and even from that, I know that they only have a certain budget each year to work from, which not only includes maintenance of the locomotives and rolling stock, but other needed things.
I'm sure if they had an infinite amount of money, the new roundhouse would be built now, and everything would be cosmetically restored to how it looked when it left the shops.
I don't think some people realize that it takes money and time to restore something, much less quite a few things. It isn't a wave of a wand and everything's done.
