Steam Engine "Endurance"...

@Strummer posted:

I'm thinking about putting a loop of Gargraves under one of the display trees they have up during the holidays using a #302, pulling 2 cars and a caboose while using a small MRC 0-27 transformer for power.

Is there any risk in running an engine for say, 5-6 hours at a time? I would disconnect the "choo choo" and smoke feature, for obvious reasons. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Mark, I'm not the expert on this, but I would suggest a can motor conversion if you're going for that kind of running time.  Short of that, it is my understanding the original open frame motor will run cooler if you convert it to DC using a full-wave rectifier.

A coupe of the AM Reading RR heavyweight coaches  would be very appropriate behind the 302.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Thanks Tom

Short of a full on can motor conversion, what if I simply use a DC power pack? I've got a Marnold that's rated at 4.5 amps...

Mark in Oregon

@Strummer posted:

Is there any risk in running an engine for say, 5-6 hours at a time? I would disconnect the "choo choo" and smoke feature, for obvious reasons. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

For the more obtuse among us, what are the "obvious reasons?"

The post war smoke units can be allowed to run dry without damage. It's only the modern smoke units that require either fluid or being powered off.

Putting a can motor in it will allow it to run all day. The can motors are about $40 and a bridge rectifier is a few bucks.

@RoyBoy posted:

For the more obtuse among us, what are the "obvious reasons?"

The post war smoke units can be allowed to run dry without damage. It's only the modern smoke units that require either fluid or being powered off.

Putting a can motor in it will allow it to run all day. The can motors are about $40 and a bridge rectifier is a few bucks.

Guessing eliminating the "choo choo" noise and smoke "scent"? Probably not worth customer or staff complaining about them?

@BobbyD posted:

Guessing eliminating the "choo choo" noise and smoke "scent"? Probably not worth customer or staff complaining about them?

Yes...I thought that was the "obvious" part.

I could, of course, avoid both by running a #300, but I don't want to risk "burning out" one of those older engines. 302s are pretty common and cheap to replace... guess it's a good thing that we have 10 months or so to discuss this! 😊

Mark in Oregon

"The post war smoke units can be allowed to run dry without damage."  

That's new to me.  I wonder then what caused all of those burnt to a charcoal-like crisp units I've replaced?  A hot element on a dry wick without fluid to take up the heat and turn the fluid into smoke is going to take its heat out on the dry wick and usually in a damaging fashion - new engine or old and regardless of wick - wadding, "angel hair", or what have you.  If anyone runs their smoke equipped-engines with the smoke unit on, but without fluid for extended periods of time without any harm to the wick please let us know the trick.  Thank you.    

@Sgaugian posted:

"The post war smoke units can be allowed to run dry without damage."  

That's new to me.  I wonder then what caused all of those burnt to a charcoal-like crisp units I've replaced?  A hot element on a dry wick without fluid to take up the heat and turn the fluid into smoke is going to take its heat out on the dry wick and usually in a damaging fashion - new engine or old and regardless of wick - wadding, "angel hair", or what have you.  If anyone runs their smoke equipped-engines with the smoke unit on, but without fluid for extended periods of time without any harm to the wick please let us know the trick.  Thank you.    

Two years ago I dug out my 2026 from when I was a kid in the fifties.  I disassembled and cleaned it.

The smoke unit had caked on waxy gunk built up.  I scraped it off, freed up the piston, cleaned out the hole, and added a helper spring (which I bought from The Train Tender).

Works good as new.  There is no switch to turn the unit on and off and I am unaware of any loco from the era that had one.  I also bought a "replacement" element from The Train Tender which I hope I never have to install.  It is not nearly as well built as the original.

John

Your 2026 is a Lionel steam engine.  It probably has a bowl-like smoke unit that uses pellets to produce smoke without a wick.   However, over time many of those have been converted to wick and coil.  

The question here is whether you can run a functioning postwar AF smoke unit dry (i.e. without smoke fluid) for extended periods of time without damaging the wick material in contact with the heating coil.  That part of the wick is critical to proper smoke production.  The rest of the wick must also be "fluffy" enough to absorb and deliver smoke fluid to the coil, but if the wick material in contact with the heating element (coil) is toast then all that fluffiness is for naught.  

@Sgaugian posted:

Your 2026 is a Lionel steam engine.  It probably has a bowl-like smoke unit that uses pellets to produce smoke without a wick.   However, over time many of those have been converted to wick and coil.  

The question here is whether you can run a functioning postwar AF smoke unit dry (i.e. without smoke fluid) for extended periods of time without damaging the wick material in contact with the heating coil.  That part of the wick is critical to proper smoke production.  The rest of the wick must also be "fluffy" enough to absorb and deliver smoke fluid to the coil, but if the wick material in contact with the heating element (coil) is toast then all that fluffiness is for naught.  

Well I did put a piece of wicking material in it so I could use liquid smoke fluid.   So I guess you are probably right in that I have to keep fluid in it any time I run it.  The fluid is more readily available.

John

I think I will probably just pick up reasonably decent looking example of a 302 and simply remove the smoke unit...it shouldn't be too difficult. While I'm at it, I might put in a can motor as well. I see "SnS" offers them at around 40 bucks a pop.

That way, it'll be a visual addition without the sound of the "choo choo" (which might get annoying after a while) and the odor of the smoke. A lot of places ask to refrain from wearing fragrances anyway, and I suppose American Flyer smoke could be considered a..."fragrance".

Mark in Oregon

On your 302, Run it on DC , as mentioned ,. keep it lubed!  Don't worry about it. If you need Atlantic's just let me know

@Dave Koehler posted:

On your 302, Run it on DC , as mentioned ,. keep it lubed!  Don't worry about it. If you need Atlantic's just let me know

Thanks Dave.

I did find this "pieced together" example:

The lead truck has metal wheels ( I don't remember where they came from); the tender is one of the older(?) types with the recessed side panels, and the reverse unit is gone, so I have it wired to go forward only: leads "1" and "4" to the tender, and "2" and "3" are wired together...so this should work for this project, yes?

Mark in Oregon

I think you can run post war trains that much, it won't hurt the engine. As long as you aren't putting a big load on the engine (like a long train with heavy cars) it shouldn't overheat. The motor in those things is pretty rugged, as long as it is properly lubed you shouldn't have trouble with it running that long IME. One thing I would recommend, take the engine apart before using it, and check the grease it in especially on the worm shaft from the engine, that grease if an engine hasn't been used in a long time tends to become almost solid. Use a good grease (red and tacky, or whatever is generally recommended by people), and you should be fine for the holiday season. I would recommend every couple of days at least to oil the wheel bearings on the engine and the cars you are using, those will tend to need to be redone with that kind of steady use.

The old Lionel smoke units didn't have a switch, they ran on pellets, and wouldn't burn out if you didn't put them in there, and in fact they didn't have any on/off switch. If you are concerned about that, it is easy enough to open the engine up and disconnect the wire going to the smoke unit if you worry about that. Usually if people switch to liquid units, they find a way to have a cutoff switch on the engine of some sort, because they do have problems if they are on and there is no fluid. In running a display like you want to, I would not have smoke running.

Given what you are talking about running, an engine and a couple of cars, you should be fine running AC. If you do run DC if the tender has a whistling tender , you will need to disable it, running DC with a whistling tender will cause it to sound continuously (I am talking postwar whistling tenders, though if modern electronic tenders respond to the transformer whistle control, they will blow too I believe).

@bigkid posted:

I think you can run post war trains that much, it won't hurt the engine. As long as you aren't putting a big load on the engine (like a long train with heavy cars) it shouldn't overheat. The motor in those things is pretty rugged, as long as it is properly lubed you shouldn't have trouble with it running that long IME.

With the lad in mind, if you can, use SHS/MTH or AM free rolling cars.  The ones that have pointy axles and metal wheels.  Metal wheels will help the track stay cleaner longer which can be a problem with a long running display layout.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but choose your cleaning products carefully.  There are a lot of threads that discuss track and wheel cleaning on this forum.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Well folks...

...this afternoon I spent maybe an hour on this; I tore it apart, unsoldered the wires going to the smoke unit, reconnected those wires directly to the headlight, removed the smoke unit, reassembled everything and it runs smoothly and quietly. I think it'll be just fine for the display next holiday season.  Thanks for all the input.

Mark in Oregon

...and a "PS":

Hooked this up to a short train, #s 630, 631 and 632, on a loop of (clean) GarGraves, 42"D.

Ran it for about an hour at approx. 7V DC. Motor was barely warm, so when the time comes I believe we'll be "good to go". 

Mark (still) in Oregon