Steam Locomotives on Deadhead Moves Questions

Railfan Brody posted:

Whenever a steam locomotive like 765 or 611, there are always crew members in the tool car. When the locomotive has a passenger consist, can crew members leave the tool car and go chill in one of the dome cars when there are no passengers?

Yes, in my experience, so long as your clothes and shoes/boots are CLEAN.  Also, if the dome car is privately owned, you might want to get permission from the car owner.

If you can, I would abuse this power. 

Now,,,,,,,isn't THAT encouraging!

Any steam locomotive crew member let me know please. 

Also, this is kind of off topic, but do you guys ever cook food in the fire box?

No. I would much rather eat sitting in a diner or restaurants.

I've seen them cook bacon on shovels in England, but on a steam locomotive like 765, the heat is intense at 70 mph,

You don't think the heat is just as "intense" on a British 3-cylinder pacific at close to 90 MPH?

so not a good outcome. 

Hot Water posted:

 

I've seen them cook bacon on shovels in England, but on a steam locomotive like 765, the heat is intense at 70 mph,

You don't think the heat is just as "intense" on a British 3-cylinder pacific at close to 90 MPH?

 

Not as big a firebox grate, but still hot.

Thank you!

I would totally eat bacon off the coal shovel cooked in the fire box! 

 I wouldn't if I were you.   Here's why... when nature calls we sometimes have to resort to whatever is available.

I think it is fairly safe to presume most people do not have a lot of experience with coal fired appliances, I however do. With that being said, I wouldn't eat anything cooked that way.

Railfan Brody posted:

Hot Water posted:

 

I've seen them cook bacon on shovels in England, but on a steam locomotive like 765, the heat is intense at 70 mph,

You don't think the heat is just as "intense" on a British 3-cylinder pacific at close to 90 MPH?

 

Not as big a firebox grate, but still hot.

Thank you!

The size of the firebox really has not much to do with how hot a coal fire, or an oil fire for that matter, will burn.

Is a larger firebox to distribute the heat in a larger boiler like a Challenger or Big Boy?

http://www.foodiequine.co.uk/2...deeside-railway.html

Railfan Brody posted:

Is a larger firebox to distribute the heat in a larger boiler like a Challenger or Big Boy?

A larger firebox will have more surface area (including more tube surface area, because there will be more tubes/flues) to heat more water.

The oil firebox on the engine I fire measures probably 5' x 5' x 5'. It's tiny. But it's 1,800 (+/-) degree temperature is plenty high enough for it to do what we need it to do.

Thanks Steve!

I guess I learn something new every day!

I didn't think that on a sunny day with no AC, the dome car would be a solar oven. But I have respect for the cars, and I'm just saying that it would be nice to have it to "Yourself." But I enjoy waving to the rail fans so I would probably be in the vestibule.

I've seen unpopped popcorn poured down a steam engine's smokestack. Yes, the kernels did pop and come back out of the stack.

645 posted: 

I understand you are young but it is not a good attitude to have to be part of a crew if all you want to do is "abuse this power" as you put it. I'm sure there are moments where the crew gets to relax / enjoy a perk or two but that is more than made up for by plenty of hard work / long hours to make an excursion happen.

Yeah, if a crew member did something like this, they'd almost certainly wind up sweeping out the engine house as their primary job afterward. In a volunteer RR group, people pick up who the dead weight is really fast. And those folks get very little (if any) throttle time once that label is applied.

I'd bet that Jack and Rich have each had a hand in relegating such volunteers to the least glamorous jobs on their crews, and probably more than once...

p51 posted:

I'd bet that Jack and Rich have each had a hand in relegating such volunteers to the least glamorous jobs on their crews, and probably more than once...

With the hope that such a volunteer might become discouraged enough to leave.

Good Lord...where do you guys come up with some of this stuff? 

OGR Webmaster posted:

Good Lord...where do you guys come up with some of this stuff? 

You're honestly saying if you had someone on a crew that didn't pull their own weight, you wouldn't want them away from the 'cool' things?

If so, you'd be the only person in a such a position who ever didn't do so. I've worked with a lot of non-profits in my life, and the one constant among all of them is that the people who slack off (when everyone else is working like a horse, like when a steam crew is moving equipment around) are always the ones who get the dirtiest jobs, assuming they're not asked to leave outright.

Heck, I once saw a WW2 plane volunteer get left at a barnstorming stop for doing exactly this, and left to his own devices to get home.

There's no way that slacking steam crew volunteer would be kept on with the 'cool' jobs that others who work harder covet.

That is, of course, in such cases where said slacker isn't the kid or close pal of one of the guys in charge. I've seen that happen, too and nothing will unravel a group faster than when this happens. A non-profit group near me is slowly coming apart for that very reason.

I wouldn't be a slack off when it comes to steam preservation. When I'm talking about hanging out in the dome car, that's when the locomotive is on the road and most of the crew gets a break (Though most would want to be in the cab) and theres nothing to do really. I've seen it first hand at CVSR. During the trip, I looked into the tool car window and saw the crew, sitting, talking and having a good time. When we stopped at Akron, the crew jumped out of the tool car and "manned their battle stations" if you would. I am very impressed with the FWRHS.

Tool car is one, thing, a dome is totally something else.

Besides, anyone worth their weight on a steam crew is going to be pretty dirty. No dome car owner is going to be too keen on you getting their pride and joy filthy, as it's tough enough keeping them clean against the paying passengers. Those dome car seats are usually what the most expensive tickets are sold for.

Anybody whose worked around steam knows the door of the tool car is a way better place to ride than insulated in a silly dome car!  Can't hear or smell anything!

If you can't get in the cab, the tool car is the best place on the train.  HEP and air conditioning is usually shut off on deadhead moves and those cars are intolerable.

Rarely would anyone from the steam locomotive crew ride in one of the coaches (or domes) on a deadhead move. There are many reasons why:

• There is no HEP on a deadhead move. Running the HEP for no good reason gets expensive. That big generator uses a LOT of diesel fuel...that we (FWRHS) have to pay for!
  Remember...this is a BUSINESS. We aren't out there doing this just for "fun."
  
  
• On a deadhead move, there are no car hosts in the cars. Without that protection, the cars are locked.
  
  
• The lease contracts with the owners of the cars typically do not allow passengers to ride in the cars on a deadhead move.

As for cooking eggs and bacon on the scoop...no thanks. I tried it once...that was enough. Nothing like eating gritty eggs with cinders in them. It sounds much more pleasing than it actually is.

p51 posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

Good Lord...where do you guys come up with some of this stuff? 

You're honestly saying if you had someone on a crew that didn't pull their own weight, you wouldn't want them away from the 'cool' things?

I was not referring to anything about volunteers. I was talking about the posts about eating off the  scoop, relative levels of firebox heat, riding in domes with no AC, etc.

OGR Webmaster posted:

I was not referring to anything about volunteers. I was talking about the posts about eating off the  scoop, relative levels of firebox heat, riding in domes with no AC, etc.

Oops, sorry. Your response makes a great deal of sense now!

Just to ad something else to this whole thought of "riding back in the train" discussion; as a crew member, I wouldn't want to be "back in the train" if we had to stop for some unforeseen reason and every available crew member was needed. Yes, there have been times, on certain excursions, that I have gone back into the passenger cars in order to meet & greet passengers. I did not walk the full length of the train, and returned to the crew car pretty quickly. I sure wouldn't want to be part of an operation were most of the locomotive crew was "back in the train", in the event that they were needed.

Now, concerning "riding in the cab", I can remember some cases on the American Freedom Train when the cab was so full of guests (totally 13 people) that I couldn't even see the Engineer from the Fireman's seat! I had to watch the top of the throttle lever in order to see how much increase or decrease was being made, plus listening to the exhaust sound. When I was not supposed to be in the cab on duty, I "relaxed" in the crew car in order to listen to the music of the steam locomotive!

I agree Rich, things do need to be professional, but I do have three questions:

I know that Dover Harbor has it's own car hosts. Do they travel with the car on deadhead moves, or do they carpool or something?

How long did it take to cook the egg? My guess is 7 seconds.

Do you think you will ever come back and run 765 on an excursion every once in a while? Maybe if CSX lifts the no steam rule and the New River Trains come into play?

I don't understand why you would want anymore than the fireman & engineman in the engine providing  both know the territory.   I'm  not sure what you mean HW... In the steam days the head end crew were on their own on pass and   an added  head end brakeman on freight.   No support staff along for the ride. They seemed to get over the road.

Having 13 people in the  cab  is ridiculous and an accident waiting to happen IMHO.

 Scenario.... Wouldn't you and Rich like to make a trip with no company officials, no rail fans anywhere on high speed track  that  Rich knows the road.... That might be fun.

Hot Water posted:

Just to ad something else to this whole thought of "riding back in the train" discussion; as a crew member, I wouldn't want to be "back in the train" if we had to stop for some unforeseen reason and every available crew member was needed. Yes, there have been times, on certain excursions, that I have gone back into the passenger cars in order to meet & greet passengers. I did not walk the full length of the train, and returned to the crew car pretty quickly. I sure wouldn't want to be part of an operation were most of the locomotive crew was "back in the train", in the event that they were needed.

Now, concerning "riding in the cab", I can remember some cases on the American Freedom Train when the cab was so full of guests (totally 13 people) that I couldn't even see the Engineer from the Fireman's seat! I had to watch the top of the throttle lever in order to see how much increase or decrease was being made, plus listening to the exhaust sound. When I was not supposed to be in the cab on duty, I "relaxed" in the crew car in order to listen to the music of the steam locomotive!

I saw some of the FWRHS walking part of the train. I was walking the train to see the parlor car that CVSR had restored and noticed that Kelly was in front of me. Apparently there was food in one of the cars. That would've been nice to know.

13 people?! That must have been overwhelming! Was that on the T1 or 4449?

Gregg posted:

I don't understand why you would want anymore than the fireman & engineman in the engine providing  both know the territory.  

In todays world of modern railroading, it doesn't matter whether the Engineer and Fireman "know the territory" or not. The host railroad will call a Pilot Crew, per union and operating rules.

 I'm  not sure what you mean HW... In the steam days the head end crew were on their own on pass and   an added  head end brakeman on freight.

You aren't paying attention. We have NOT been discussing "the steam days", but todays modern excursion era, where a Pilot Crew member is ALWAYS present in the cab, plus an office usually.

   No support staff along for the ride. They seemed to get over the road.

Well, back in "the steam days" a Traveling Engineer or Road Foreman of Engines may have also ridden with the cab crew, on occasion.

Having 13 people in the  cab  is ridiculous and an accident waiting to happen IMHO.

Ridiculous,,,,,,yes. However, not all that uncommon during the Freedom Train Tour with 4449 (remember she has an enclosed, all-weather cab).

 Scenario.... Wouldn't you and Rich like to make a trip with no company officials, no rail fans anywhere on high speed track  that  Rich knows the road.... That might be fun.

I can't speak for Rich, but I have had quite a number of occasions on SP 4449, UP 844 & 3985, when our Engineer was operating over his own working territory/division, and NOBODY from the Pilot crew wanted anything to do with riding in the cab! Those were truly EXCELLENT trips.

Hot Water posted:

 Having 13 people in the  cab  is ridiculous and an accident waiting to happen IMHO.

Ridiculous,,,,,,yes. However, not all that uncommon during the Freedom Train Tour with 4449 (remember she has an enclosed, all-weather cab).

I have spoken with Doyle, Ross, and a few of the Portland guys about this in years past (and several at the recent Freedom Train reunion). All have confirmed that on various parts of the Freedom Train tour, it was like a RR convention in the cab.

It seems even more odd to me when you consider that they tried to have as many of the movements from one display city to another take place at night!

p51 posted:

It seems even more odd to me when you consider that they tried to have as many of the movements from one display city to another take place at night!

Well, you must understand that once the days activities of the public going through the displays on the train, the whole thing must then be closed-up, and "broken down", just like the Ringling Brothers circus. By the time everything was "put back together", we usually departed after midnight to the next display town/city, arriving about dawn.

Hot Water posted:

p51 posted:

It seems even more odd to me when you consider that they tried to have as many of the movements from one display city to another take place at night!

Well, you must understand that once the days activities of the public going through the displays on the train, the whole thing must then be closed-up, and "broken down", just like the Ringling Brothers circus. By the time everything was "put back together", we usually departed after midnight to the next display town/city, arriving about dawn.

Oh, I totally understand that, Jack. I'm reasonably familiar with how the train worked.

My point was I couldn't get why so many people would be stuffed into the cab of 2101 or 4449 in the middle of the night. You'd think people would have valued their sleep in such a case...

As for the timeframes, I saw the train come into my hometown (Tallahassee, Florida) as a kid, several hours late. But the Seaboard Coast Line never handled special movements very well, The circus train always showed up hours late, too, even well into the CSX era. heck, they never handled the Sunset Limited when it still ran through there, either, as it was a single-track main all the way from New Orleans to Jacksonville.

p51 posted:

Hot Water posted:

p51 posted:

It seems even more odd to me when you consider that they tried to have as many of the movements from one display city to another take place at night!

Well, you must understand that once the days activities of the public going through the displays on the train, the whole thing must then be closed-up, and "broken down", just like the Ringling Brothers circus. By the time everything was "put back together", we usually departed after midnight to the next display town/city, arriving about dawn.

Oh, I totally understand that, Jack. I'm reasonably familiar with how the train worked.

My point was I couldn't get why so many people would be stuffed into the cab of 2101 or 4449 in the middle of the night. You'd think people would have valued their sleep in such a case...

I can't speak for the former Reading T-1, AFT #1, but 4449 with its all-weather cab could hold a lot of people that REALLY wanted to boast that they "road in the cab" of AFT 4449, even in the dark and had no clue what was really going on, nor could they see anything!

Well, not all of them (Riverside, Illinois...)

The night moves were probably necessary to have the displays (the revenue producing part) up and running at the next stop for maximum effect.  After all, while steam locomotives pulled the train, AFT was supposed to be about America's history.

But, I was sure disappointed they couldn't get the 4449 to Navy Pier.

Rusty

Railfan Brody posted:

I agree Rich, things do need to be professional, but I do have three questions:

I know that Dover Harbor has it's own car hosts. Do they travel with the car on deadhead moves, or do they carpool or something?
I don't know.

How long did it take to cook the egg? My guess is 7 seconds.
About the same time as it would take on a regular stove. 3-4 minutes as I recall.

Do you think you will ever come back and run 765 on an excursion every once in a while? Maybe if CSX lifts the no steam rule and the New River Trains come into play?
No.

Thanks again Rich.

I'm hoping that one day I can follow in your footsteps and get behind the throttle of 765.

Did you run the Varsity, or did Zach run it both ways?

So what you are saying is that you are done operating the 765 for good? Retirement means retirement. And it is very unlikely CSX will even entertain the idea of hosting steam trips like NS did the past few years. The last time steam ran on CSX was October 1994, when the Milw 261 pulled the New River Train. The only such special excursions that operate on CSX now are the Collis P. Huntington excursions out of WV that operate with Amtrak diesel power. Even NS has cut back the steam excursions to 611 only. Who knows if it will operate again in 2017. The only class 1's currently open to public steam excursions are NS, BNSF, and maybe UP with 844 but 844 mostly operates non public trains.