steam running in reverse

This happens all the time on my layout.  Photos are in the January 2016 issue of OGR and video scenes are in Great Layout Adventures Volume 11.

I happen to like the look of my Lionel Long Island 0-6-0 B6 running backwards at the head of a cut.

Not desirable in the real world, but necessity made the practice acceptable. Of course there were situations where backward running was avoided at all costs. The cab crew would be exposed to wind, weather, debris and riding directly behind the dusty coal pile; definitely not an arrangement for the 20th Century Limited, but lower speed transfer and branchline runs would have seen it now and again. Some engines had tender cabs fitted to avoid the nasty parts of running in reverse.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/w..._Bewdley_station.JPG

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/...73772_f327e8ab3d.jpg

Some steamers were designed to run both ways, as a matter of course. Tank engines (often in commuter service) frequently even had a pilot under on the tender, as well as on the "front" of the locomotive. Also a common practice (running both ways)  in short- or branch-line service. Feel free to run 'em backwards if you'd like; I typically pull my GM&O work train with my Weaver 2-8-0 tender-first.

If our 3RO steamers had convenient, truly compatible, not-too-protruding O-gauge couplers, I'd do it more.

So, not found often in regular mainline service, the ATSF designed their long 2-10-10-2 Mallets to run both directions in mainline service; they were too long to turn everywhere, so they added a tender pilot and a sloped tender for visibility. Sort of a pre-SP Cab-forward (a "center-cab" steamer, maybe). 

Strasburg RR runs their steam engines in reverse because there is no Y to reverse the engine & tender, they uncouple and bring the engine to the other end of the train and run it in reverse. 

Running in reverse with a steam engine is done more then people think it is done. It is frowned on in the real world but it is necessary.

Lee Fritz

wb47 posted:

....  I was taken by a real photo recently of a 6 car freight with the steamer leading the charge in reverse.  ...

if it was a photo, how could you tell it was running in reverse?
could it have been pushing the cars?
you cannot always tell by the direction of the stack exhaust.

generally it would be very dangerous to operate in reverse.
the engineer's attention would be directed away from all the controls and gauges not to mention extremely poor visibility.

cheers...gary

Reading locomotives including the T-1s operated tender first frequently on mine shifter runs due to the back and forth nature of the operations.

Bob

overlandflyer posted:

generally it would be very dangerous to operate in reverse.
the engineer's attention would be directed away from all the controls and gauges not to mention extremely poor visibility.

cheers...gary

Gary,
It was common practice for steam locomotives on trains on a turn-around job to leave the terminal tender first as there was usually no way to turn the loco at the outlying point of return. N&W did this regularly on mine runs on the Pokey Div. and also on turn-around shifters everywhere.

We once ran the Tuskeegee 101 at IRM during the 1979 Steam Weekend in reverse because we could:

I don't think the operation was ever repeated.

Rusty

Firewood posted:

Not desirable in the real world, but necessity made the practice acceptable. Of course there were situations where backward running was avoided at all costs. The cab crew would be exposed to wind, weather, debris and riding directly behind the dusty coal pile; definitely not an arrangement for the 20th Century Limited, but lower speed transfer and branchline runs would have seen it now and again. Some engines had tender cabs fitted to avoid the nasty parts of running in reverse.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/w..._Bewdley_station.JPG

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/...73772_f327e8ab3d.jpg

 

Good to learn (speaking for myself.)

overlandflyer posted:

generally it would be very dangerous to operate in reverse.
the engineer's attention would be directed away from all the controls and gauges not to mention extremely poor visibility.

cheers...gary

You ARE kidding, right?  What sort of  controls and gauges does the Engineer on a steam locomotive have to constantly be looking at? I can tell you that I have been Fireman on both SP 4449 and UP 3985 during back-up moves exceeding 50 to 100 miles, and RARELY did the Engineer I was firing for EVER look at his "controls and gauges". In fact, even operating forward, the "controls and gauges " are rarely looked at, for two main reasons:

1) Forward monitoring of the track ahead is most important for BOTH the Engineer and Fireman.

2) Steam locomotives are operated pretty much by sound & feel, thus looking at the "controls & gauges" generally provides not much constant information to the Engineer. The speedometer is only glanced at.

This has been an enjoyable read, learning all this real-life information about backing steam locomotives up.

Regarding my layout, well, back-in-the-days when I had a yard and a turntable and engine roundhouse, my favorite engine, the scale Lionel Dreyfus Hudson and its 20th Century consist, not a single time, when I backed the engine & tender across my 0-72 Lionel switches to couple with the waiting passenger cars, NOT ONCE did it not TRIP over the switches and derail. NOT once.

Thus,
the switches are gone; the yard is gone; the roundhouse and turntable are gone. Enough was enough. Besides, my wife was bored with the yard and suggested, once she realized even our guests were uninterested (the official kiss-of-death for any aspect of the layout) in the operation of such a facility, that I, "Get......rid of all this," gesturing over the whole yard and switch-orgy feature. So, I ripped it all out and replaced it with these neighborhoods, gradually. (Fortunately, I had saved the round hunk of plywood that had been jig-sawed out for the turntable and replaced it, supported from below by bracing.)

WB47,

   I always thought that running steam engines in reverse was just not right however recently I saw some videos that are changing my mind. The first was a European doubleheader with the steam engines connected tender to tender like diesels double head so they don't have to be turned. The second was a video of a U.S. train were the pusher was running in reverse because there was no where to turn the pusher.

 When you think about it almost all modern steam tourist trains do not turn the engines. Steamtown always ran their steam engines in reverse on the return trip including the day they hit a ATV treaspassing on their tracks killing the rider. 

As far as visibility looking out the front of a steam engine looks to me as bad as looking in reverse over the tender. Maybe Rich can lend some of his experience running the 765.

 I guess I am saying is I don't know if it is as bad as we think running in reverse.

JohnB

Running a steam loco in reverse was not uncommon.   There were not wyes and turntables at the end of every branch or at the end of a local run along the main.    The loco had to run around the train in a siding and go back to its home yard in reverse.    Turntables were expensive and just not justified in such situations, and wyes were also hard to install because of the cost of real estate.     So running tender first was quite common on some types of jobs.

Main line runs did not run in reverse as a rule due to speed causing tracking problems and the other issues mentioned.   

Just remember folks, that steam locomotives operating light, i.e. without cars for braking, had to operate at pretty reduced speeds.

Because my layout was designed for local freights between the yard and some outlying industries, I needed small road engines that had operating couplers on both ends to do the job.  This would allow me to run around the cars to spot them, and return to the yard without turning.  Unfortunately the only steam engines in O gauge that have operating front couplers are switchers.  I could have settled using diesels like my RS-1 or VO-1000, but I really wanted steam.  I talked to Alex Malliae about adding front couplers to my K-Line Mikado and Weaver Consolidation.  Alex said he would give it a try, and he and Pete Serino, who did the machining, did an excellent job of installing command couplers on the front of both engines.  Because of the limited coupler swing you need wide radius curves, which I have.  Now I can run these steamers from/back to the yard without turning them, tender first.

Hot Water posted:

overlandflyer posted:

generally it would be very dangerous to operate in reverse.
the engineer's attention would be directed away from all the controls and gauges not to mention extremely poor visibility.

cheers...gary

You ARE kidding, right?  What sort of  controls and gauges does the Engineer on a steam locomotive have to constantly be looking at? I can tell you that I have been Fireman on both SP 4449 and UP 3985 during back-up moves exceeding 50 to 100 miles, and RARELY did the Engineer I was firing for EVER look at his "controls and gauges". In fact, even operating forward, the "controls and gauges " are rarely looked at, for two main reasons:

1) Forward monitoring of the track ahead is most important for BOTH the Engineer and Fireman.

2) Steam locomotives are operated pretty much by sound & feel, thus looking at the "controls & gauges" generally provides not much constant information to the Engineer. The speedometer is only glanced at.

i sure wish i could monitor the water glass through "sound & feel" but i find a visual check works better for me.  i also burn coal, hand stoked, so facing forward is a big help in getting most of the fuel into the firebox with an occasional look at the fire & unfortunately my likely too obsessive habit of watching the boiler pressure.  you're probably right in that oil firing does not require as much attention, but even if you are running on your s&f method, you've got to concede that it's easier to start an injector or adjust the blower when you don't have to turn around first.

as far as the mechanics involved, perhaps it would be more accurate to say it is "safer" to run a road locomotive forward.  pilot trucks are designed to be ahead of the drive wheels for a reason.  i'm sure there were instances during the steam era where economic feasibility came into play just as today where logistics is more of a factor (i.e.,e.g. not many turntables left) with steam locomotives required to travel some distance in reverse, but i can't imagine any disagreement in functionally being the less desirable direction to operate (tender deck seating notwithstanding).

cheers...gary

overlandflyer posted:

...i can't imagine any disagreement in functionally being the less desirable direction to operate (tender deck seating notwithstanding).

cheers...gary

Except for the SP in the mountains, hence the cab forwards.

And I seem to remember reading in a book as a kid about how engineers half jokingly said that the steam locomotive in general seemed to just run better in reverse...

overlandflyer posted:

Hot Water posted:

overlandflyer posted:

generally it would be very dangerous to operate in reverse.
the engineer's attention would be directed away from all the controls and gauges not to mention extremely poor visibility.

cheers...gary

You ARE kidding, right?  What sort of  controls and gauges does the Engineer on a steam locomotive have to constantly be looking at? I can tell you that I have been Fireman on both SP 4449 and UP 3985 during back-up moves exceeding 50 to 100 miles, and RARELY did the Engineer I was firing for EVER look at his "controls and gauges". In fact, even operating forward, the "controls and gauges " are rarely looked at, for two main reasons:

1) Forward monitoring of the track ahead is most important for BOTH the Engineer and Fireman.

2) Steam locomotives are operated pretty much by sound & feel, thus looking at the "controls & gauges" generally provides not much constant information to the Engineer. The speedometer is only glanced at.

i sure wish i could monitor the water glass through "sound & feel" but i find a visual check works better for me.  i also burn coal, hand stoked, so facing forward is a big help in getting most of the fuel into the firebox with an occasional look at the fire & unfortunately my likely too obsessive habit of watching the boiler pressure.  you're probably right in that oil firing does not require as much attention, but even if you are running on your s&f method, you've got to concede that it's easier to start an injector or adjust the blower when you don't have to turn around first.

You are trying to compare operations of a live steam model to the operations of a real steam locomotive, no mater coal burning or oil burning (even wood burning, for that matter), and there really is no comparison. Rarely does the Engineer need to "monitor" the water glass, as THAT is the Fireman's job anyway. Concerning the operation of an injector, even those modern locomotives with an injector on the Engineer's side of the cab, the Fireman was/is expected to get up from his seat, and walk over an put the injector on, when he requires it, i.e. NOT bothering the Engineer.

as far as the mechanics involved, perhaps it would be more accurate to say it is "safer" to run a road locomotive forward.  pilot trucks are designed to be ahead of the drive wheels for a reason.  i'm sure there were instances during the steam era where economic feasibility came into play just as today where logistics is more of a factor (i.e.,e.g. not many turntables left) with steam locomotives required to travel some distance in reverse, but i can't imagine any disagreement in functionally being the less desirable direction to operate (tender deck seating notwithstanding).

cheers...gary

In April of 1991, the Reading Blue Mountain & Northern operated T-1 2102 in mine shifter servcie to recreate what it was like during the steam era many decades earlier. True to form and just as it was back then, the 2102 spent much of its time running in reverse. Mark 1 Video produced a program titled "The Schuylkill Shifter" covering the operations and its one of the better steam videos I've seen. The coal train operations were kept authentic...a lot of grit without the glitz and glamour. The video is now offered on DVD in combination with another program titled "Return of the Rambles" covering the 2102 in excursion service during the same time period so you get two programs for the price of one. It's a disc definitely worth watching and you get to see a big steam locomotive working tender first.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mark-I...HhZ87r6i4LqkLgVK2iAA

Bob  

I run my 0-8-0 switcher tender first often, especially on work trains, local freights, and transfer runs.   Running this way is reflective of prototypical operation and it adds interest for a hobby environment.

The Connecticut Valley and Steamtown do it every run.

Jon

sinclair posted:

overlandflyer posted:

...i can't imagine any disagreement in functionally being the less desirable direction to operate (tender deck seating notwithstanding).

cheers...gary

Except for the SP in the mountains, hence the cab forwards.

And I seem to remember reading in a book as a kid about how engineers half jokingly said that the steam locomotive in general seemed to just run better in reverse...

no argument with SP's solution for negotiating show sheds and of course without a tender in front of  you, the visibility in cab forwards was unsurpassed, but i can't really go along with the idea that those engines operated in reverse as you'll notice what would normally be a standard trailing truck design for most locomotives was replaced with a modified pilot truck.  those locomotives were designed to be run cab forward, though in comparison, i' d have to think it was an even greater challenge to operate a cab forward in reverse.

switchers aren't road locomotive (no lead truck and very few with a trailing truck) and are quite happy to run equally well in either direction.  most with tenders have fairly good visibility all around.  design will usually follow function.  cut into a consist as a helper is a bit different than being in the lead not to mention that for the task, speed will likely not be a factor for a switch locomotive with normally small drive wheels.

i actually thought this string was about operation in the steam era, not modern tourist lines.
i'm sure there are dozens of isolated tracks today where operation can be tailored to fit limited resources and still get the job done.

cheers...gary

Check out the photo of the Sydney & Louisburg mixed train on this page:   http://www.trainweb.org/oldtim...sydney_louisburg.htm

If your locomotives spend a lot of time running backwards, then a cow-catcher - er - pilot on the rear of the tender is probably a sound idea.

KOOLjock1 posted:

The Connecticut Valley and Steamtown do it every run.

Jon

So does the Arcade and Attica.

In W. Hugh Moomaw's book "Virginia's Belt Line Railroad: The Norfolk & Portsmouth, 1898-1997" he states the NPBL ran in reverse 50% of the time (no TT or reverse loop).

I also read something that got me wondering...he shows a photo of an 0-6-0 with 2 sand domes and says the 2nd dome was for use in reverse, is that true?  I've always wondered why some engines had 2 sand domes, makes sense.

NPBLs biggest steam were some ex-N&W (# 1019, 1034, 1056) 4-8-0s, most were 0-6-0 and 2-8-0.

Bob, I don't think (where are you Hotwater?) that the second dome was for reverse use, more likely either greater sand capacity, or weight distribution. In the case of large locomotives, especially articulateds, I imagine dual steam domes were for capacity and simplifying sanding line routing and reducing sand line length.

 On the steam locomotives that I have looked at, there is a sand nozzle in front of each axle, plus one behind the last axle, so that in reverse, the nozzle for the axle in front would sand a trailing(now leading) axle, and the forward facing last nozzle would sand the rear, now leading axle.

with (I) representing sand lines/nozzles and (O) representing drivers a typically sand line/nozzle arrangement would look like

IOIOIOIOI for an 8 coupled locomotive like a Berkshire or Northern.

One sand dome can feed many lines, as noted typically one more line than the number of drivers that dome is supplying sand to.

Here are some close up pics:

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture579.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture579.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture193.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture193.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s269.photobucket.com/user/challenger3980/media/Picture200.jpg.html][IMG]http://i269.photobucket.com/al...r3980/Picture200.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

I bet that Jack (Hotwater), recognizes the locomotive in the last two pics,

Doug

2472, the ex SP heavy Pacific that was restored years ago and is now a staple of Bay Area tourist railroading, was laid up for years because of backwards running. The main axle bearings were designed for forward running, and running the loco in reverse scrubbed the lubricant off of them and scored the bearing surfaces. When she was repaired, they put in bearings that would be happy in both directions of operation. That's the story the volunteers told me.

So much to say.  Tender first operation was fairly common on industrial tracks and with smaller engines - witness the slope back tenders of pennsy A5 or B6 switchers.  In those operations speed was often not much of a factor so the sound an feel of the engine was plenty of feedback for the engineer.  I have operated small steam in tourist service and I can promise you that once you get accustomed to a locomotive you don't need to look for where the brake levers are, you just feel for them.  You do learn to glance at your brake reservoir pressure every now and then if you are operating in hilly territory.

Since you are generally situated behind the boiler, the view out the front is usually rather limited as well.  In fact running tender first with a short tender is better visibility than going forward.

The fireman of course is primarily concerned with what is inside the cab, so is continuously occupied with boiler pressure, water level, fire conditions, how much water is in the tender, lubing during stops etc.  However they are also the engineers' other set of eyes during grade crossing and switching.

The lead axle not only helps guide you into curves, it prevents alot of wear on the front set of drivers.  The engine I ran alot in reverse had no trailing truck to act as a guide in reverse ops and such the flanges of the rear driving axle had much more wear than the front.

Two sand domes are for simplified piping and increased storage capacity.  

In case it needs to be said, steam engines have equal pulling power in forward and reverse.

And for extreme cases of bidirectional operations, look into bayer-garrett style locomotives!

jhz563 posted:

So much to say.  Tender first operation was fairly common on industrial tracks and with smaller engines - witness the slope back tenders of pennsy A5 or B6 switchers..

That's how I had been intending to operate this engine. I had been told such tenders allowed a better view of what was behind, as the engine was backed up, better than regular taller and wider tenders which blocked the engineer's view significantly.

Here ya go...

Image: "Smoke Over the Divide" Ehernberger and Gschwind, E&R Publications c:1965

Rusty

RoyBoy posted:

2472, the ex SP heavy Pacific that was restored years ago and is now a staple of Bay Area tourist railroading, was laid up for years because of backwards running. The main axle bearings were designed for forward running, and running the loco in reverse scrubbed the lubricant off of them and scored the bearing surfaces. When she was repaired, they put in bearings that would be happy in both directions of operation. That's the story the volunteers told me.

That could be due to the original machining of the bearing surfaces. If the relieving and/or cutting of lubricant passages into the surface was done more on the "forwards" sides of the bearings and not so much the "reverse" sides, then the lubricant would have trouble making it to where it was needed. Maybe the original thought was that the locomotive would see limited reverse operation at low speed.

Maybe our friend Hot Water has a pearl or two of wisdom on the subject.