Stumbled across this on YouTube - Unfortunately Video is Gone!

Thanks for popping this up Jim. I know that Pat and I have talked countlessly about some of the consists particularly of the New York Central, but I think a few other may have been included as well. I'll have to take a long look later when I get home to take this all in. I do already like how it has started though I have it muted. I'll have to start over and see what is being said.

Haven't completed it yet, but 3 minutes in, if that's archival color footage and not recolored later, interesting for our Dreyfuss Hudson friends...

Great video. Thank you

Really enjoyed this video!  Thanks for queuing it up for us!  Very much worth watching, especially if you are familiar with some of the locations!

@Andrew B. posted:

Haven't completed it yet, but 3 minutes in, if that's archival color footage and not recolored later, interesting for our Dreyfuss Hudson friends...

That footage has been colorized. I have the exact footage shot in black & white. That footage was filmed by the NYC’s in house cinema photographer. It is featured in one of the “Inside The Oval” productions filmed by NYC employees. …..So, unfortunately, that colorized variation on the above posted video holds no weight.

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

That footage has been colorized. I have the exact footage shot in black & white. That footage was filmed by the NYC’s in house cinema photographer. It is featured in one of the “Inside The Oval” productions filmed by NYC employees. …..So, unfortunately, that colorized variation on the above posted video holds no weight.

Pat

I enjoyed watching the video (why I posted) in Color or B&W, but the "fuzziness" I did find disappointing.  Pat is the original "sharper"?  Did the colorization process causes this degradation?  Please let me know.  Thanks!

@MainLine Steam posted:

I enjoyed watching the video (why I posted) in Color or B&W, but the "fuzziness" I did find disappointing.  Pat is the original "sharper"?  Did the colorization process causes this degradation?  Please let me know.  Thanks!

As far as clarity, it’s about the same. When a black & white film is colorized, it’s at the whim of the person adding the color what determines the outcome ……If y’all want to see the NYC in real color film, the only color film that I know that exists, is the footage from the ‘39 World’s Fair. I asked Mario ( The walking encyclopedia of all things NYC ) what actual color film exists of the CENTURY, and he said only the ‘39 World’s Fair footage was actually shot in color film. In that footage, you’ll see the PRR’s streamlined K4 go head to head with the CENTURY’s Dreyfuss Hudson…..If you study the video closely, you can make out the hint of green on the Pennsy’s K4, and the coloring of the Dreyfuss. Using the Pennsy K4 as the litmus test, you’ll see where the Dreyfuss stands, …of course, form your own opinion, …….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

As far as clarity, it’s about the same. When a black & white film is colorized, it’s at the whim of the person adding the color what determines the outcome ……If y’all want to see the NYC in real color film, the only color film that I know that exists, is the footage from the ‘39 World’s Fair. I asked Mario ( The walking encyclopedia of all things NYC ) what actual color film exists of the CENTURY, and he said only the ‘39 World’s Fair footage was actually shot in color film. In that footage, you’ll see the PRR’s streamlined K4 go head to head with the CENTURY’s Dreyfuss Hudson…..If you study the video closely, you can make out the hint of green on the Pennsy’s K4, and the coloring of the Dreyfuss. Using the Pennsy K4 as the litmus test, you’ll see where the Dreyfuss stands, …of course, form your own opinion, …….

Pat

Thanks Pat great information!

If we are discussing the shade of Gray I go by the caption on page 210 of Thoroughbreds by Staufer/May.

Direct quote:  "Lionel's postwar "O" NYC Diesels are very close on shades of gray."

2 Things IMO that would make this statement correct.

1) Thoroughbreds was published 50 years ago (in 1974) and as far as I know is considered "the bible" of NYC Hudsons, the authors were very methodical in their research.

2) When the above mentioned Diesels were produced, the Hudsons still existed!

If others want to go by old photographs or movies it is up to you.  IMO something painted at that time to match is a far better color reference.

When I did my research on the color, I was armed with a super weapon. My DuPont representative, who’s been in the business for 40 +years,…..I gave him some codes, and off to the races he went, …..I did not tell him what it was for. I did not want him to  look at the color on-line, or guess, ….I wanted to see the actual DuPont codes in action, broken down in formula form. …..He came to me and said this was specific to the New York Central……He had to cross codes from lacquer, to enamel, and then finally put it in modern urethane coding. Ironically, we learned this is what Koh’s & Co. did ( reverse engineering the codes ) to paint the Smithsonian sets way back when……but before learning of Koh’s approach, I sprayed some on a dead Smithsonian boiler shell. DEAD ON MATCH!……so perfect, it could be used as an undetectable touch up paint on a Smithsonian, …..with that said, we believe lightning can strike twice,…..The representative that worked with Koh’s did his diligence, as did my guy,…….when I opened the lid to the can, I got weak in the knees,…….😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

When I did my research on the color, I was armed with a super weapon. My DuPont representative, who’s been in the business for 40 +years,…..I gave him some codes, and off to the races he went, …..I did not tell him what it was for. I did not want him to  look at the color on-line, or guess, ….I wanted to see the actual DuPont codes in action, broken down in formula form. …..He came to me and said this was specific to the New York Central……He had to cross codes from lacquer, to enamel, and then finally put it in modern urethane coding. Ironically, we learned this is what Koh’s & Co. did ( reverse engineering the codes ) to paint the Smithsonian sets way back when……but before learning of Koh’s approach, I sprayed some on a dead Smithsonian boiler shell. DEAD ON MATCH!……so perfect, it could be used as an undetectable touch up paint on a Smithsonian, …..with that said, we believe lightning can strike twice,…..The representative that worked with Koh’s did his diligence, as did my guy,…….when I opened the lid to the can, I got weak in the knees,…….😉

Pat

Perfect!

So how does the "Smithsonian" compare to the latest Lionel release?  Know there was some disapointment by purchasers.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Perfect!

So how does the "Smithsonian" compare to the latest Lionel release?  Know there was some disapointment by purchasers.

Let’s not go there, ……that’s a contentious subject.

Pat

I sort of thought for sure the film has been colorized. Good to know my hunch was right. I wonder where we can all find the World's Fair films?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I sort of thought for sure the film has been colorized. Good to know my hunch was right. I wonder where we can all find the World's Fair films?

There is World's Fair footage on youtube ( of course) .

I don't know if it's " all " of the footage , but the streamlined k4 pulling up nose to nose with the Dreyfuss is on there.

Go to 11:25:

https://youtu.be/MUZGLL26_e8?feature=shared

Thanks Rick, I'll have to catch all this when I can. I'm not as busy as Pat, but evenings it just seems hard to catch up on anything unless I catch a break in the action.

Sorry guys, this was NOT 'colorized'. This video - I have it on VHS from when it was first produced in the 1980s - was long before colorization was a 'thing'. The color is original. NYC may have used a B&W version of some scenes, but if they're color in this video, the original film was color.

The story at the time was that Mr. Herron of Herron Video bought a huge stock of railroad film (mostly 16mm) at like an estate sale or something, and found that it had all this footage on it...but it wasn't clear who had shot it or where it came from.

There were several "Glory" videotapes made about different subjects in the late steam / transition era.

The problem I have with that Stix is the question of the quality of the film which has been discussed on other topics. If this video was out together from what can be best described as unknown sources, then the overall quality of the film is open to scrutiny. I know one of our members on here has talked about the great quality of the Kodak Company film from back in the day which there is great documentation on that as well.  If the film was found upon in any instances of yard sales, someone's attic or garage, then I'm sure that the film quality would degrade to a slight degree(who knows how little). Perhaps that is why there is that slight fuzziness described above.

One thing I do know from stories about TV, some places shot and developed both in B&W and color for their episodes. Having seen those shows in both has been interesting as the angles are all the same. Of course what I am talking about is British TV and the late 1960's into the early 70's. They(the Brits) shot that way for a while before going full on color for that particular show in I think '73 I believe. I think it was midyear transition as that was how their seasons ran.

Aside from that, you got me unless it was hand painted(as that was a thing in early film).

@wjstix posted:

Sorry guys, this was NOT 'colorized'. This video - I have it on VHS from when it was first produced in the 1980s - was long before colorization was a 'thing'. The color is original. NYC may have used a B&W version of some scenes, but if they're color in this video, the original film was color.

The story at the time was that Mr. Herron of Herron Video bought a huge stock of railroad film (mostly 16mm) at like an estate sale or something, and found that it had all this footage on it...but it wasn't clear who had shot it or where it came from.

There were several "Glory" videotapes made about different subjects in the late steam / transition era.

That’s horse hockey!….why would the film exist in black & white frame by frame, but have been shot in color? …that’s a tad bit backwards ….no??……what you have is just that,……a story,….and colorizing B&W films began in 1937……

Pat

I don't know whether this was colorized or not, but I know for a fact that colorizing existed in the 1980s... I've got a hand-me-down VHS copy of It's a Wonderful Life that Hal Roth studios colorized in like 1985.

Well I accomplished one thing by posting here.  Although I only got a few replies and 5 likes to my original post.  I think more than that have taken a look at the video.  When I posted yesterday the video showed 55 views on YouTube in 3 months, now it says 320.  Better contact the guy for a "kick-back" on his YouTube Income.  LOL

There are programs/photo procedures that can bring photos into focus. Don't know if those are available for movies or not. Interesting to see a single Warbonnet diesel at the head of a stainless passenger train (the San Diegan). Those folks buying some of the basic sets with a single engine might be happy to see that their outfit could be prototypical (although those probably would be in a great minority). Also interesting to see the colorful Valley Flyer in a video. One scene captured a brakeman riding on top of a moving boxcar. Truly a dangerous line of work!

@breezinup posted:

There are programs/photo procedures that can bring photos into focus. Don't know if those are available for movies or not.

Yes, there are "sharpening" apps for video, but they would not help this video. This is a very poorly done digitization from a VHS video. How do I know it is from VHS? Because of this...

Only the "Auto Tracking" feature of a consumer VHS or Betamax machine would put "AUTO PICTURE" on the screen. No "Pro" gear would ever do this.

The VHS format was awful when it first came out back in the 70s. It was just barely adequate for old Standard Definition video. It's totally IN-adequate for HD video. This video was digitized in what is called "480P" meaning only 480 lines of video in the vertical direction, in progressive scan. To put that in context, standard HD video has 1,080 lines. 4K video has 2,160 lines.

Digitized VHS video can look a lot better than this. Here's an example...video I shot on VHS in 1998.

I have two different books on the Great Northern Ry. that have the same picture of an ore boat loading at the GN ore docks in Superior WI. One book has the photo in color, the other is in black and white. That doesn't mean that it was a black and white photo that someone colorized. It means it was a color photo, but the maker of one book chose to use it as a black and white picture.

Anyway, the "Glory Machines" series of videos were very popular around 35-40 years ago, and many VHS tapes were sold in the series. They were reviewed in all the major railroad-related magazines. NONE of the reviews ever even hinted that the color wasn't original - plus some of the videos have color and black and white films mixed. Why would they colorize some of the films but not others?

@wjstix posted:

I have two different books on the Great Northern Ry. that have the same picture of an ore boat loading at the GN ore docks in Superior WI. One book has the photo in color, the other is in black and white. That doesn't mean that it was a black and white photo that someone colorized. It means it was a color photo, but the maker of one book chose to use it as a black and white picture.

Anyway, the "Glory Machines" series of videos were very popular around 35-40 years ago, and many VHS tapes were sold in the series. They were reviewed in all the major railroad-related magazines. NONE of the reviews ever even hinted that the color wasn't original - plus some of the videos have color and black and white films mixed. Why would they colorize some of the films but not others?

That doesn't mean that it was a black and white photo that someone colorized. It means it was a color photo, but the maker of one book chose to use it as a black and white picture.

how did you confirm this?

Pat

"Colorization" as done by Turner Broadcasting was a crude first attempt at colorizing. The colors were awful and they quit doing it after a few years because it was so bad. Plus, if a company created a way to magically transfer b&w film to color so clearly that even trained reviewers at Kalmbach and Carstens and others couldn't tell it was colorized, why didn't the company put their name on the video (TBS always added something like "Colorized 19XX by Turner Broadcasting")?? And why didn't Herron Rail brag about this new magically process they had at their disposal? Simple - it's not colorized, it's original color.

Color 16mm film was made available for purchase for home / hobbyist use around 1937. There have been TV programs made using color films of major league baseball in the late thirties and forties ("When It Was A Game") and as mentioned apparently a lot of 16mm home movies exist of the 1939 NY World's Fair - some of which was used in the "Streamliners of Yesteryear" railroad VHS tape made about the same time as "The Glory Machines".

As Rich says, this YouTube posting was made directly from an old VHS tape (which as I mentioned, I bought a copy of back in the 1980s). This means you're looking at 16mm color and black-and-white movies transferred to most likely 1" open reel videotape then used to make a master tape that was used to make VHS cassette copies, which has now been digitalized and put on YouTube. Each step in this process degrades the picture quality - plus of course color film tends to not be as sharp as b&w.

Ted who? Turner, yeah, he led colorization in the 80's but that is another thing entirely. Ever hear of Wilson Markle? He did the colorization of film in the 1970's. There is a whole host of techniques which many of us aren't aware of Stix and that includes you. Way back in 1902 films were hand colored as I said above, which you didn't even say anything about. This also went on in the 1920's and on in a variety of ways. Technicolor was a thing with the films I have stated above. You talk about how the color 16mm film was around which I am not saying didn't exist, but you're even acknowledging that you don't know what the quality of the film was when Herron purchased wherever he purchased it. Film quality degrades no matter how it is stored. Take for example the original Star Wars trilogy. George Lucas and company didn't expect the film to degrade as much as it did, and that was shot and stored in the 70's-80's.

So, what is the quality of the film that was put together to make this movie that Herron put out there? Answer me that.

So the latest update.  Views went from 55 to 429 since I started this topic.

After reading the bulk of the replies, I added colorization and VHS conversion to the tags for the original post.  One area I know nothing about (photography) other than to try not to cover the lens with my finger or thumb (successful about half the time).   

My take-away is that rather than being disappointed in the "fuzziness" I should feel lucky I can make out the images at all.  Learning what the conversion from film to VHS to YouTube and maybe or maybe not colorization involves, WOW.

Oh and "to throw some gas on the fire".  Not sure how this may or may not play in but, the 8mm and Super8 Movies my parents took when I was a kid if viewed now, the colors are VERY washed out.  It is color film, non-colorized (except for when my kid sister started playing with it with her box of crayola crayons).  LOL

Let's fall back on common sense. This video was produced in 1984 (the narrator mentions that towards the end). It was one of the most popular VHS railroad videos ever produced, selling thousands of copies and being reviewed by every railroad / model railroad magazine at the time.

Yet now, we're supposed to believe that because in someone's opinion the color in one or two spots seems faded or off, that the video was in fact artificially colorized in secret 40 years ago, with no mention made in the credits, or by the company, or by any reviewer, and that only now are we so enlightened that we are able to tell that it was colorized.

Here's how it was actually done - using original color film when available:

http://www.herronrail.com/Catalog/about.html

@wjstix posted:

Let's fall back on common sense. This video was produced in 1984 (the narrator mentions that towards the end). It was one of the most popular VHS railroad videos ever produced, selling thousands of copies and being reviewed by every railroad / model railroad magazine at the time.

Yet now, we're supposed to believe that because in someone's opinion the color in one or two spots seems faded or off, that the video was in fact artificially colorized in secret 40 years ago, with no mention made in the credits, or by the company, or by any reviewer, and that only now are we so enlightened that we are able to tell that it was colorized.

Here's how it was actually done - using original color film when available:

http://www.herronrail.com/Catalog/about.html

Well when I first posted, I did it innocently enough, to share what I had stumbled across.  It turned into Way More of a topic of discussion then I ever imagined.  However, as most topics on this forum, I learned from it.  That is why I am on this forum (to learn and share what knowledge I might have).  Anyhow I want to thank all, and particularly wjstix for the link above explaining the process of making this video.  Again like most things in life, unless you have "been in the trenches", it all seems so simple.

BTW now shows 410 views on YouTube (not sure how the count went backwards)?  Again, YouTube is outside my area of expertise.  I just watch videos there, I don't post, although some day with some encouragement I might try.

Color, schmuller, somebody tell me about the cows riding the flat car at 6:47.    They shortchanged the N&W, perhaps not enough footage to choose from.

@CALNNC posted:

Color, schmuller, somebody tell me about the cows riding the flat car at 6:47.    They shortchanged the N&W, perhaps not enough footage to choose from.

What you've never herd of a milk train. (Deliberate spelling of herd).  LOL

Easier to ship the milk this way then having to ice a reefer?

Seriously, if you have been around cows, they are pretty mellow.  May have had a flat car available but not a stock car?  Wouldn't want try that with pigs or most other livestock.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Seriously, if you have been around cows, they are pretty mellow.  May have had a flat car available but not a stock car?  Wouldn't want try that with pigs or most other livestock.

Yes, I have heard of a milk train, especially the ones that fed the Hershey plant, and those cows must just be mooooving along.  I have been surrounded by cows my whole life it seems, from the dairy farms around my elementary school, to the pastures on 3 sides of my property, but still, that was a new one for me, seeing cows just standing on a flat car in a moving train, and it was moving at a pretty good clip, sure seems like a risk.  Maybe it was a short haul on a straight section of track.

@CALNNC posted:

Yes, I have heard of a milk train, especially the ones that fed the Hershey plant, and those cows must just be mooooving along.  I have been surrounded by cows my whole life it seems, from the dairy farms around my elementary school, to the pastures on 3 sides of my property, but still, that was a new one for me, seeing cows just standing on a flat car in a moving train, and it was moving at a pretty good clip, sure seems like a risk.  Maybe it was a short haul on a straight section of track.

Like the mooooving along.  I agree it does seem strange, one of the reasons I like watching these old films.

It was also why I mentioned the way the military vehicles were being moved.  Most on flat cars, some with side boards, but some appear to be gondolas (assume they had drop ends).  On the other hand the vehicles could have been placed in the cars with a crane.

A $1.25 too short.

Reels of color film - zero

Color film camera that **** the footage - zero

Color film reels bought at garage sale - zero

Colorization used by Herron - Ding ding ding, give that man a cigar.

I'm glad you finally proved our point that the film was shot in B&W and later colorized just as Pat said. Funny how that worked out.

So here is something that I can't quite recall what movie it was, but my picture will align with what I relay.

I want to say it was probably in the mid to late 90's that someone was giving an interview with someone at TCM, but that may be wrong. The person was part of the costumes department back in the day, and was saying that the original color of the lead actor wasn't black, but a dark shade of blue. That in the colorization process of the film in question, for some reason the blue became black.

I had thought that the film was Babes in Toyland, or more commonly called March of the Wooden Soldiers, but again I wasn't sure. I would ask my oldest brother as we had both been talking about it at the time in the 90's but he has probably forgotten about it.

So, to support what I have said above here is a statement about how the colorization process is not full proof. In this instance, it refers to a scene that was for the movie Grease. I rest my case.

Just a reminder that I have the VHS tape of this film from 1985. The color is the same as the YouTube version. Despite what some folks seem to think, IF it had been black and white film that was 'colorized' then, it would look very different than if b&w film were colorized now. Plus it wouldn't be a deep hidden secret that only the few members of the illuminati would know about. It would have been full-page advertisements in all the train magazines and stories in Time and Newsweek about this new advanced process to colorize b&w movies. Instead, the stories were about how wonderful it was that Herron found these original color films of transition era train.

To go back to an earlier point I made. I have two books published fairly recently that have the same photo of an ore boat at the GN ore docks in Superior WI c. 1960 (IIRC). One book, which was published with all images in black and white, have the picture in black and white. The other book, that mixed color images and b&w, have it in color.

This means that either:

A) The photo was color - probably a color slide - but was published in black and white in the book where all the images are black and white.

or

B) It was a black and white picture, and the publisher of the book that published it in color decided to defraud the railfan community by secretly colorizing the picture without any mention or notice - or any reason.

One answer is logical and reasonable. One is borderline 'tin foil hat'.

@wjstix posted:

Just a reminder that I have the VHS tape of this film from 1985. The color is the same as the YouTube version. Despite what some folks seem to think, IF it had been black and white film that was 'colorized' then, it would look very different than if b&w film were colorized now. Plus it wouldn't be a deep hidden secret that only the few members of the illuminati would know about. It would have been full-page advertisements in all the train magazines and stories in Time and Newsweek about this new advanced process to colorize b&w movies. Instead, the stories were about how wonderful it was that Herron found these original color films of transition era train.

To go back to an earlier point I made. I have two books published fairly recently that have the same photo of an ore boat at the GN ore docks in Superior WI c. 1960 (IIRC). One book, which was published with all images in black and white, have the picture in black and white. The other book, that mixed color images and b&w, have it in color.

This means that either:

A) The photo was color - probably a color slide - but was published in black and white in the book where all the images are black and white.

or

B) It was a black and white picture, and the publisher of the book that published it in color decided to defraud the railfan community by secretly colorizing the picture without any mention or notice - or any reason.

One answer is logical and reasonable. One is borderline 'tin foil hat'.

I got it now, ….thanks for clarifying!!…..So anytime we see black & white films, we’re to be led to believe it was first shot in color, then turned into black & white, based off a picture you found in a book??…..who’s wearing the tin foil hat now??…..😁

Pat

Apples and oranges. Illuminati can go jump in the Hudson River for all I care as they have zero bearing on any of this. On the Grease bit I posted above that mentions Kleiser the director of Grease, he believes by 2028 the technology for colorization will actually get everything right.

Also, it is no secret that color prints taken by photographers over the years have been published in both B&W and color. It really depends on what they(the publishing company and author) paid for what kind of print. This does happen and is no secret nor needs some fictional secret organization to reveal this to any. I'm sure if you asked any author, publisher or others they would tell you it is all about cost and what they can afford for what they want to publish.

That said, I really do need to get another chance to actually watch the video.

Jim Herron wrote this in 2010:

"The film had been given to another friend by an estate attorney who handled an estate for a deceased railfan in Largo, FL. We have never learned the name of the original shooter of the film who shot it over a period of years from the 1930's-early 1940's as he travelled over the country. We did add some footage of the Reading and CNJ (on Reading tracks) from George Gerhart and some from Union Pacific that Charlie gained permission to use. Had my friend not seen the reel of film which was simply marked "Trains", it would have gone into a dumpster."

"Then the film and the mixed track were taken to a film studio in Orlando for transfer to video on a Rank Cintel. By today's standards it was expensive and crude but it was all we had. This was all done in 1984 before video equipment for individual producers was widely and economically available."

https://www.trainorders.com/di.../read.php?10,2162838

Note that all the "Glory" (and "Reflections") series done by Herron back then had both color and black and white footage. Why would they take an hour of black and white movies and colorize 45 minutes of it? Wouldn't they do the whole film?

Pat - No, what I said was, if a photo is in black and white in one book, and color in another, the most logical explanation is it was a color photo that was published in color in one book and b&w in the other. To assume it was a black and white photo that was colorized with no evidence isn't  logical. Why would a railfan publisher risk their reputation by colorizing a photo and passing the fraud off as an original color photo?

BTW I believe around 1990 a law was created that said that movies that were colorized had to be clearly labelled as such?

A law was passed? Given the nature and number of railfans, is it possible that there are(or were) the original production videos still around by the time this supposed law was passed? Would this mean that the maker of said video would have to get back all the copies and slap labels on them?

No, it would mean that after the law was passed, people selling VHS tapes or DVDs of colorized movies would have to be sure the movie's credits and/or the packaging indicated it had been colorized. Movies that Turner colorized all said so in the credits, photos in publications that were colorized say so in the captions.

If 100 people are shown a picture of a red apple, and 99 of them say it's a red apple, and one person says it's an orange somebody painted red, I think it's up to the 1 person to provide some sort of proof (not just "it don't look right to me") of their extraordinary claim.

If Herron Video, a start-up company in 1984 on a shoestring budget, somehow was able to access very very expensive (if it existed) technology to seamlessly colorize a movie and then fraudulently touted it as being all original color, I'd like to see some PROOF, not just something about the color of one engine not looking right to one person. Y'know, common sense.