Suspended Layout from Unfinished Basement Ceiling - 02/18/2020

Good luck with that project . I am still experimenting with using different products for different projects and have found that using  a metal stud base channel is great for standard gauge track use .  If i remember right it comes in 12 foot lengths  and can be bought at either big box hardware store , $12.00 I think . I will be helping my buddy install a 12 to 14 foot bridge, elevated trolley line on his layout using this channel. I mention this channel because it is light weight and very ridged . I haven't figured out the curves yet.  Still thinking about that issue.  My buddys trolley line will be a straight back and forth run and we will be using old junker tower bases to support the bridge as seen in my floor  test bridge.   Maybe this idea will help you solve part of  your issue ,

JohnnieWalker posted:

Good luck with that project . I am still experimenting with using different products for different projects and have found that using  a metal stud base channel is great for standard gauge track use .  If i remember right it comes in 12 foot lengths  and can be bought at either big box hardware store , $12.00 I think . I will be helping my buddy install a 12 to 14 foot bridge, elevated trolley line on his layout using this channel. I mention this channel because it is light weight and very ridged . I haven't figured out the curves yet.  Still thinking about that issue.  My buddys trolley line will be a straight back and forth run and we will be using old junker tower bases to support the bridge as seen in my floor  test bridge.   Maybe this idea will help you solve part of  your issue ,

That's a great idea! I might consider turning it over and using the flat side for the track. I could cut corners from sheet metal and put some pieces of channel underneath for support.

I really like the piers that support your channel and the bridge! Are those piers from a Lionel beacon tower?

George

Hi George , Yes they are . My buddy and I have been buying them over the years for just this reason , to make an elevated rail line .  Just last week at a show not far away he picked up 4 more , each being only a dollar !!   I myself have 14 of them waiting to be used one day . They make for very sturdy supports and are tinplate to boot .   I did experiment with a short piece of the channel trying to make a curve . What I did was cut slots down one side and across the bottom  every inch or so , this allowed the channel to be curved . I never pursued riveting   the overlaps in place to hold its shape , Another project came along , then another and another .  If you do go this route , make sure you buy the base/top channel and not the studs . There is a difference in shape , and the studs have large irregular holes punched in them for running wires  as well .    

George, you may have seen this.  Someone posted this in a different thread this week.  It's a video of Jack Black's ceiling layout.  It appears to be all-thread with blocks at top and bottom.  That's a good support frame but it doesn't solve the problem for a see-through base.  Starts about 5:45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1wefUWxWOw

As Mike says above the metal framing track doesn't have the lip on them like the wall studs. And the track is also usually made of heavier gauge metal, quite a bit sturdier than the wall studs. 

The hangers shown in the video, from threaded rod and 1x2s or 1x3s would probably be the least expensive for hangers.

A few years ago I saw a video where a guy had made hangers from copper pipe for his hanging layout. Ran all over the house as I recall. That was really a nice looking system, but was probably pretty costly too. If I can find it again I'll post a link.

Well, that was pretty easy to fnd, I'd forgotten about the glass (or acrylic) tubing that was also used. Thought the copper might look good with your tinplate trains. Here it is:

Just watched this again. Yikes! Kind of scary with just open track and no fall protection between the train and the floor 7-8 feet below, There was some kind of acrylic or something on the sides in a few spots. You could still see the train and also have some safety from falling to the floor. But I'm sure that's also probably expensive.

Here's a picture of the conduit method. https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/...getown_Colorado.html

Looks like they made a single loop of conduit and then tied a small board to the top for the track to rest on. Hangers look similar to the Jack Black layout.

George

rtr12 posted:

As Mike says above the metal framing track doesn't have the lip on them like the wall studs. And the track is also usually made of heavier gauge metal, quite a bit sturdier than the wall studs. 

The hangers shown in the video, from threaded rod and 1x2s or 1x3s would probably be the least expensive for hangers.

A few years ago I saw a video where a guy had made hangers from copper pipe for his hanging layout. Ran all over the house as I recall. That was really a nice looking system, but was probably pretty costly too. If I can find it again I'll post a link.

Well, that was pretty easy to fnd, I'd forgotten about the glass (or acrylic) tubing that was also used. Thought the copper might look good with your tinplate trains. Here it is:

That's really cool. Looks expensive! I found a company that would make and install a system with acrylic. That would be awesome, but the price starts at $6000. That's twenty times more than I want to spend.

George

From the looks of that house, there was probably no shortage of funds for that one either? That's way above my pay grade for sure!

I think your picture of the conduit layout looks just fine, very nice they way they did that. Conduit would definitely be inexpensive, maybe the most cost effective way to go? Would be easier to bend than the metal studs as well. Looks like they used some type of thin metal bars for their trapeze hangers. I can't see well enough to tell what they used to fasten their conduit to the hangers? 

In place of the 1x lumber (might be too thick?) Home Depot and Lowes have 1/4" thick strips (1-1/2" to 2" wide) of poplar, oak, and a couple of other hardwoods that might also be strong enough to support a train. Spacing them similar to the way they did in the conduit layout. Those hardwood strips are pretty sturdy, especially  in short lengths.

Yeah, while the video is interesting and the layout impressive, I wouldn't opt for that method at any price.  IMO the best ceiling layout would be one you don't notice.  It's truly about seeing the train.  For me anyway.

MikeH posted:

Yeah, while the video is interesting and the layout impressive, I wouldn't opt for that method at any price.  IMO the best ceiling layout would be one you don't notice.  It's truly about seeing the train.  For me anyway.

Totally agree Mike.

George

You would be surprised how much dirt falls through an unfinished ceiling.

Which can make a mess unless you are looking for gold like in the movie Paint Your Wagon.

GVDobler posted:

You would be surprised how much dirt falls through an unfinished ceiling.

Which can make a mess unless you are looking for gold like in the movie Paint Your Wagon.

That decision was made a long time ago and it's a done deal. I spent weeks cleaning, prepping and spray painting the ceiling. Most of the dirt you see is from when construction occurred. The carpet in the room above has a premium backing and the padding is pretty stable. I have had my layout up for a few months with felt on the table top and cars on the track. Everything has stayed pretty clean. I have a vacuum and duster, but only need to used them when I am making the mess. Like the rest of the house, I will need to keep the basement clean.

George

Today I found a 3' section I was testing some time ago .   The open grid work nut & bolted to the bottom is a section of tile edging that was in my shop .  The holes you see in the channel , I put those there , to secure it to the Lionel towers I was using .  Again good luck and keep us posted on what you come up with.

Whoa!   I'm digging that tile edging as a guardrail.  

MikeH posted:

Whoa!   I'm digging that tile edging as a guardrail.  

Thanks , but that is actually the bottom side of the bridge . Now one could use them as guardrails if one wanted to .   I think there is enough guardrail by placing the track inside the channel but that's  just my opinion .  I added the tile edging to the test section to see how it looked and to see how much stronger it would be .  

Hi George,

Another George here! I have an inter-rail layout in my home in N.H. located in a large finished 3rd floor attic room. I purchased it from Lantz’s train and hobbies in Horse-head, NY about 13 years ago. I think they’ve since closed The inside track is O and uses sectional Gargraves plastic tie track made specific for the interail layout system. The outside track is Aristo G scale track. The layout measures 12’ wide at one end and 6’ wide at the other by about 18’ long. I do have a S curve due to the rooms geometry, that adds interest and has never given me an issue I just can’t run large steam engines thru it.  The Interail system does have a clean finished  look which I like. I didn’t install the guard rails wires and have never had a train fall off but I guess it could happen.

The toughest part was putting The plastic sections together and I had to wear garden gloves to snap them together, then plum bobbing it with the ceiling, that was no easy task. It’s held up for many years but one could easily pull it down. Inter rail I believe is out of business, a big distributor of it was Jules Toy trains. Inter rail I believe was out of Pennsylvania. Good-luck, I have seen your Standard Gauge layout posts, it looks great and keep us posted!

Seacoast posted:

Hi George,

Another George here! I have an inter-rail layout in my home in N.H. located in a large finished 3rd floor attic room. I purchased it from Lantz’s train and hobbies in Horse-head, NY about 13 years ago. I think they’ve since closed The inside track is O and uses sectional Gargraves plastic tie track made specific for the interail layout system. The outside track is Aristo G scale track. The layout measures 12’ wide at one end and 6’ wide at the other by about 18’ long. I do have a S curve due to the rooms geometry, that adds interest and has never given me an issue I just can’t run large steam engines thru it.  The Interail system does have a clean finished  look which I like. I didn’t install the guard rails wires and have never had a train fall off but I guess it could happen.

The toughest part was putting The plastic sections together and I had to wear garden gloves to snap them together, then plum bobbing it with the ceiling, that was no easy task. It’s held up for many years but one could easily pull it down. Inter rail I believe is out of business, a big distributor of it was Jules Toy trains. Inter rail I believe was out of Pennsylvania. Good-luck, I have seen your Standard Gauge layout posts, it looks great and keep us posted!

 

Thank you. I love it. I saw a post you made several years ago about this. I waited too long. Lantz was a great hobby shop online. I bought stuff from them. Another one bites the dust...

Don’t expect anything too soon from me. I design stuff in my head and don’t always release it to my hands until I have thought through 80% of the construction. Plus, even making the hangers from scratch will take me time. I don’t have a fully functioning shop. Also, I expect each part will need to be painted. That will take as much time as making the parts. Installation will be relatively easy. I’m still mulling the easiest approach for the money. 

One option I am considering is wire shelving. However, I think the LGB track ties will fall through the grid.

George

Iron pipe can be used to suspend the track.  Attach a flange to the ceiling joist and thread in a ½ inch pipe nipple of your chosen length.  At the bottom, you can thread on an elbow and another nipple to hold whatever you are going to place the track on.  This wasn’t my idea.  GRJ was planning to use this method.  He got a bunch of flanges and pipe nipples, but never got around to it.  I took the stuff off his hands when he was clearing it out of his old house.

Go with the hung/ suspended if you have easy beam access.. IMO shelves aren't as good for watching, especially the second line. My third shelf line is elevated and easiest to see. My #1 line's ties hang over the edge ⅛" in spots, but the shelf takes from look of the track too; much higher tie counts than 3per might help...?  .

One wall holds the shared single mainline on a Rubbermaid kitchen/laundry wire rack with the braces on the topside, white. It's ugly imo. I just can't reach up to change it.

I also have a "long girder bridge" made of an inverted florescent lamp ballast cover up there. (about 20-25").  It  has a metallic rumble that transmits itself right through the 2x4 piers, the shelf, into the walls, shaking the drywall "just right".Folk  in other rooms hear it as "real"; Is that thunder?;airplanes?; trucks?;and/or real train? Outside of the room that bridge is all you hear of it running. Even a train on ground level track under it doesn't rumble  through   the walls 

An H hanging system of two threaded rods per,a hanger bar betweenmight be simpler and more forgiving from scratch.

(can't type more, spellwreck keeps producing stuff beyond chance of much bettercontext getting across)

Search and look at various cable tray and cable ladder systems - do you know any commercial electricians? 

Check this out - Snake Tray

I think I figured out how to make the hangers.

Here is the first one.

24 more to go. I'm planning on painting them black. The shelf bracket that I used for the base and top fits perfectly between the ties.

There will be 36' of track in the loop with 24 hangers. I'm debating whether I need a support under the track, because the brass rail is rigid and the track may support itself. I'm still considering conduit. It would hang from the bottom of the hangers and be secured with zip ties through the shelf bracket. Since the shelf bracket is the same profile as the ties, the ties should rest on the conduit. I have one other problem to solve. the lock nuts on top of the bracket will keep the bracket from laying flush on the floor joist. I am considering using a blocking on top of the hanger.

George

An elegant solution.  Looks to me like it might sway when the train brakes, accelerates or rounds a curve.  It that happens, I would run a few rods on a diagonal to the next joist.  Probably not needed for every support.  Maybe every third one.

George S posted:

I have one other problem to solve. the lock nuts on top of the bracket will keep the bracket from laying flush on the floor joist. I am considering using a blocking on top of the hanger.

George

I turned the top bracket over. That reduced the profile of the top lock nut. Instead of blocking, I am just going to add a washer or two to fill the remaining gap.

George

Lehigh74 posted:

An elegant solution.  Looks to me like it might sway when the train brakes, accelerates or rounds a curve.  It that happens, I would run a few rods on a diagonal to the next joist.  Probably not needed for every support.  Maybe every third one.

OK, that is something to look for as I get this put up. I'll check for how much play there is when I get everything hung. It's possible the end brackets will prevent any sway. I bought the conduit, so that should lock everything together.

I'm off to buy a metal cutting wheel for my chop saw. There are too many cuts to make for my poor Dremel.

George

Another piece of the all-thread between every 3rd & 4th bracket under the track may stabilize things

Good work on the adaptation!

Perhaps some blue locktite would be a good insurance policy...

Is there an issue with the metal structures affecting the TMCC and /or DCS signal?

Billl

JohnnieWalker posted:

Today I found a 3' section I was testing some time ago .   The open grid work nut & bolted to the bottom is a section of tile edging that was in my shop .  The holes you see in the channel , I put those there , to secure it to the Lionel towers I was using .  Again good luck and keep us posted on what you come up with.

Have you seen this flexible track for metal studs?

George S posted:

I think I figured out how to make the hangers.

Here is the first one.

24 more to go. I'm planning on painting them black. The shelf bracket that I used for the base and top fits perfectly between the ties.

There will be 36' of track in the loop with 24 hangers. I'm debating whether I need a support under the track, because the brass rail is rigid and the track may support itself. I'm still considering conduit. It would hang from the bottom of the hangers and be secured with zip ties through the shelf bracket. Since the shelf bracket is the same profile as the ties, the ties should rest on the conduit. I have one other problem to solve. the lock nuts on top of the bracket will keep the bracket from laying flush on the floor joist. I am considering using a blocking on top of the hanger.

George

That looks like a solid solution George. I agree that some diagonal bracing may be necessary but you will know when you build it.

ogaugenut posted:

Is there an issue with the metal structures affecting the TMCC and /or DCS signal?

Billl

I heard there are problems with TMCC in chicken wire tunnels. I’m planning on analog G gauge, so not worried about that.

George

Moonman posted:

Another piece of the all-thread between every 3rd & 4th bracket under the track may stabilize things

Good work on the adaptation!

Perhaps some blue locktite would be a good insurance policy...

I’m using locknuts with nylon inserts on top and bottom. 

George

Do you guys think it is OK to offset the hangers to the inside on the curves? My 50’ boxcar won’t clear otherwise and my GP7 probably won’t fair much better.

George

George S posted:

Do you guys think it is OK to offset the hangers to the inside on the curves? My 50’ boxcar won’t clear otherwise and my GP7 probably won’t fair much better.

George

I think the offset would be fine in my opinion.   Won't you need to insulate that channel going under the rails?

George S posted:

Do you guys think it is OK to offset the hangers to the inside on the curves? My 50’ boxcar won’t clear otherwise and my GP7 probably won’t fair much better.

George

Yes.  I don't think it's something I would notice from ground level.

jhz563 posted:

George S posted:

Do you guys think it is OK to offset the hangers to the inside on the curves? My 50’ boxcar won’t clear otherwise and my GP7 probably won’t fair much better.

George

I think the offset would be fine in my opinion.   Won't you need to insulate that channel going under the rails?

I would if I was using O gauge or standard gauge tubular, but LGB track is insulated under the rail. 👍

George

Here is a first look at progress.

 Six hangers and 7’ of track. The design of the hangers allowed me to level them easily after installation. Not much sway. I’m not sure I will need the conduit. Back to making more hangers, only 18 more to go.

George

That looks cool.  Between the black ceiling/floor joists and the black hardware (from the picture it looks like you painted the hardware black?), the focus is really on the train.  I love it.

MikeH posted:

That looks cool.  Between the black ceiling/floor joists and the black hardware (from the picture it looks like you painted the hardware black?), the focus is really on the train.  I love it.

Thanks Mike. Yes, I'm painting the hardware satin black with Rustoleum X2 primer + paint.  I do this in the extra garage space we have, and it happens to be heated. 

I'm making good progress. I only have a few more hangers to make. I have 8 that are drying right now. Some of the joist bays need some blocking to mount the hangers. I think I may have to put blocking in 4 bays. 

George

It's looking great, George!