Switching to O Scale from HO?

My switch was done a long long time ago where second hand ho trains ran on rubber bands, track was brass and finiky, My motive power was brands of Tyco, Life Like, Model Power and Mantua. Which didnt portray the robust and forgiving effort of Luonel 027 guage trains...regardless of a middle rail and tinplate track.

I started in HO from a very young age. My father bought me a Tyco RTR set when I was probably three years old and a Life-Like set the following year. I still have some of the cars from those sets, that I didn't otherwise destroy. After that there were other sets that were poorly made and didn't hold up to rough handling. Nothing in HO does really.

Later I got into the kits that were offered from Con-Cor, Bev-Bel, Athearn, Roundhouse, Walthers, and probably a few others. I built up a modest collection, maybe five locomotives, and two to three dozen cars or so. Eventually we built a small dual-track oval on an 8x4 sheet of plywood. and put a frame under it and it was in our garage for probably 10 years until I went to college. Some years I would come home for Christmas break and build a holiday-themed layout with my brother. Of of the last locomotives I bought was an Athearn Genesis 2-8-2 USRA Light Mikado. It was like the jewel of my collection.  After college I moved out west on my own and the trains stayed in the attic (or basement) of my parents for probably 10+ years.

One year after moving back to near home I had decided to get out the trains on a visit and sort of reminisce. It was probably around the holidays. Well, I pulled out that beautiful Mikado (made in Korea by Samhongsa) and it went about half way around the small oval I set up and stopped.  The motor ran, but it didn't. In frustration, I packed it up and mostly forgot about it. I learned later that it was known problem with the gear on the main driving axle. The loco could barely pull a two or three cars up a grade.

In the mean time, I had purchased some trains in other scales, S and O. Like you, I was attracted to the smoke and sound of the O-scale locomotives. I was so frustrated with my experiences with that Athearn branded Mike, that I gave up on HO and went all in on 3-rail O-scale. This was a big leap for me as I was always a "TWO RAIL ONLY" type of person. I think part of the reason I switched was that my Uncle who was a big collector of A.C. Gilbert American Flyer S-scale, had gotten into 3-rail over the intervening years as well.

Almost 20 years later, I've started building a layout (which doesn't get nearly as much attention as it should) and I've bought way too many trains. I've mostly limited my collection to "scale proportioned" items and I've opted to go the "command control" route. I do really like the size and heft of O-scale, and the "bells and whistles" are a lot of fun.

That said, I often look at the modern HO market and wonder "what if?"

There are a lot of downsides to O-scale, particularly 3-rail if you like more prototypical operation and realism. Obviously, the third rail is there, but even in 2-rail you've got to choose between Ow5 (traditional O-gauge) and Proto48. This isn't such a big deal with rolling stock since you can replace the trucks, but I think it makes selecting locomotives much more difficult. The O-scale market is no where nearly as healthy as the HO one. There are probably at least 10 times the manufacturers in HO than O, and because they have a common operating standard (DCC), coupler standards, and track standards, there is a lot more out-of-the-box interoperability which is more consumer friendly. The other downside (which is in other ways is a plus) is the size. Your O-scale layout will be limited by the available space. You can get realistic looking curves in HO in just about any single family home in the U.S. but you need four times the square footage to do it well in O-scale. Then there is the whole floating vs. fixed pilots thing.  Sure, you can limit your purchases to only locomotives with fixed pilots, but that reduces your choices even further. Oh, and then don't forget about whether you go with "Hi-Rail" wheels or scale wheels and "lobster claw" couplers or Kadees?

Don't get me wrong, I love my big O-scale trains and the smoke and noise etc. But the switch is not without its pitfalls IMHO.

If money and space are not a factor I would recommend O scale to anyone.  I bounce around quite a bit between motorcycles, wood working and trains.  It can be months at times before I turn on the trains.  I know blasphemy, but the MTH engines and control system always seem to operate as intended.  Your comment about the Mikado engine not working when you tried to run it after an extended period time really resonates.  Glad to say I have not had that issue with O scale.

I just got my MTH Mikado and I had the issue of not starting. I called the tech from the hobby store that I bought from and he told me the issue. The problem is the connection between the engine and the tender. You really have to put “pressure “ to connect both leads together. I thought it was connected and it wasn’t. I really had to press it together until I felt it snap. After that it worked perfectly. After that experience I am not planning to disconnect it unless I really need to.

I'm primarily 3-rail, but dabble in HO and N (with some British OO thrown in just for giggles).  I also attend a lot of operating sessions, mostly HO.  As a result, I have first-hand experience dealing with the differences between scales and gauges, and I concur with everything that @rplst8 said above.

I'd like to add that much of the cost advantage of HO vs. 3-rail O has evaporated in recent years - HO locomotives with DCC and sound can cost almost as much as 3-rail, and rolling stock is much more expensive than it used to be - much more detail, for sure, but it adds up when you need to populate a layout.

Even if time, space, and money were not an issue, I wouldn't go with scale O - unless a person is really dedicated, the lack of commercial support would present a challenge.  Some great modeling is being done in 3-rail O - look for posts by Dave Minarik and Norm Charbonneau, among others.

I also grew up with HO in the 60's-70's, but always loved running my Dad's tinplate at Christmas time. I had two different layouts growing up the second bigger than the first. Tore the second one down when my family moved after I graduated HS so other than Christmas tree loops, I didn't have a layout again until about 7 years ago. I went with O gauge this time for many of the same reasons mentioned above. I still have some of my HO including two Rivarossi steamers, a NYC Hudson, and a PRR Y6b Mallet, along with a few diesels and some rolling stock.

I'm happy that I made the switch despite my small space to build a layout. A lot can be done in O with sharper curves and more modest loco's and rolling stock. The control systems and sound and smoke effects are a big draw over what is offered in HO IMHO. The manufacturers are going through some transitions right now and neither of the big guys have a digital control system on the market but I think that will change in 2023.

It should also be mentioned that as we get older, it's easier to see the small parts in O scale.....

Just my $.02.

Bob

@Toro5xi posted:

If money and space are not a factor I would recommend O scale to anyone.  I bounce around quite a bit between motorcycles, wood working and trains.  It can be months at times before I turn on the trains.  I know blasphemy, but the MTH engines and control system always seem to operate as intended.  Your comment about the Mikado engine not working when you tried to run it after an extended period time really resonates.  Glad to say I have not had that issue with O scale.

Well I am not really sure if I have the room yet. While most of my MTH HO engines run great there is also the issue of maintenance. Many places won’t fix HO engines like they do with O Scale.

I’m not really sure if I’m just dreaming a pipe dream of if this is something I can actually commit to yet. I really need to measure the space.

I am not one for ultra realism and operating sessions. I just like playing with the trains.  I mostly got into HO from my dad’s when he was a kid. He has moved onto G scale MTH stuff. So I’m familiar with MTH very well and tearing them apart. HO feels a lot like you’re running a real railroad and I’m not sure that’s something that appeals to me anymore. But I wonder if I’m in too deep to start over.

I had HO scale for 40 years.  I grew exceptionally tired of derailments; even with "perfect" track and properly weighted cars.  I have had O scale for going on 13 years now.  I love it for the SIZE!!!  It stays on the track.  I won't fabricate and say it never derails; however, I'm always surprised when it does, and it's almost always because there was an issue with switch points.

I would especially recommend O to anyone with switching layouts.  Our Inglenook, Mini-nook and Timesaver have operated countless times, over several years, at shows and home and it is a rarity when there is a derailment.

Also, the value of O holds or goes up (sometimes it goes way up) in many cases.  I have had bunches of HO stuff given to me and it's hard to get rid of it, and when you do its dime-a-dozen.

If this sounds like I'm slamming HO I'm not.  That is just my experience and reality.  The vast majority of people have HO.  I personally know several people with SPECTACULAR HO layouts.  I love the layouts.  I enjoy all scales.

I got into HO in the 1970s.  Had to...couldn't afford O.  I'm glad times have changed for the better for me.  I'm blessed and fortunate.   I've told more people than I can remember I used to walk into Les Gordon's Train Shop (Indianapolis--long gone unfortunately) and see all that awesome O scale stuff.  I thought to myself:  Who has the space for that?  Who can afford that?"  The answer turned out to be me!  And it only took about 40 years!  LOL

I've run N scale, HO, British OO, On30, and G. My favorite, and my current switching layout, is On30. I use a Bachmann Whitcomb 50-tonner as my sole motive power. It's heavy, durable, and doesn't care what track it runs on.

Being On30 it's more compact than O, and the restricted rolling stock offerings keep me focused on playing with trains rather than buying them. They're big enough to make switching enjoyable without worrying about flipping rolling stock off the track, and if I want to add sound later it won't be a fiddly nightmare.

Ahhhhhh !!! Reminds me of my days of On30. I still have a lot of rolling stock and engines in that scale

As rplst8 has pointed out just be aware there are still many pitfalls. You will find close to zero issues with running but wanting more features are where the new headaches will be. The more features the more headaches. There are countless posts here about this or that smoke feature not working or boards failing for no apparent reason. My experience is the trains with the fewest problems were the ones made 20 years ago.

Better construction, stronger motors with durable gearboxes and fewer features to fail.

Pete

I have tried HO a few times   The latest was during the Covid lockdown  I had tons of equipment and buildings squirreled away and started construction in my garage  There is so much available in HO  That is the draw   The downside is they just dont run as good as O   I dont care what anybody says    Your trackwork has to be perfect to get some semblance of good running  As soon as I was able to get back to the club I sold the HO layout  One thing I did like is the Walthers under table servo switch motors that I used 

I don't recommend it mostly  because  of the control system mess. Then there's the lack of quality control plus the parts issue.

H O today has sound systems equal to O gauge.  I'm into O gauge myself and looking at doing the opposite of what you want to do.

But if you have the space & money and really want to do this go for it!

I had O gauge trains from age 4 to 13, eventually on a nice 4'-by-8' tabletop layout. By age 13, I had started reading about HO trains in Model Railroader, converted the layout to HO, and my dad gave the O gauge trains to his friend, who had a young son. Wish I still had them. Thirty years later, I restored the HO layout and ran it with my son, but we both had other interests, so we didn't continue with it. Twenty-five years ago, I saw an MTH Premier New York Central Hudson (with sounds) at a train show and I have been an O gauge enthusiast ever since. Despite their movable pilots, oversized couplers and wheel flanges, I much prefer the size, detail and reliable operation of scale-size O gauge locomotives and rolling stock.

Although I've built (and still operate) two scale-detailed O gauge layouts (12'-by-8' and 10'-by-5 with O-72 and O-54 curves), I'm not a big fan of three-rail track, but the tradeoffs are simple wiring and smooth operation without derailments. A downside is that the space I have available limits what I can do in 1:48 O gauge…

Every so often, I think about building a small HO layout, so I then have a look at HO trains and always come to the same conclusion – they’re just too small and don’t impress me. I also consider On30 and have purchased some track and a few locomotives and cars, but they too seem small and fragile – and then there’s the issue of more complicated wiring without that obtrusive center rail.

So, all things considered, if I had it to do over again, it would still be conventional three-rail O gauge for me - no DCS or Legacy command-control.

MELGAR

I just did the opposite. we sold our old house and i took down the O gauge layout. Our new house has a bit smaller train room so i decided to make the switch to HO. followed some track laying guides and built a test layout before the permanent around the wall layout. I had no issues with track work and operations. its a pretty simple layout but has operated flawlessly on dcc for the last 6 months. still have the o gauge stuff to set up at christmas and run at the club at some point.

@MELGAR posted:

I had O gauge trains from age 4 to 13, eventually on a nice 4'-by-8' tabletop layout. By age 13, I had started reading about HO trains in Model Railroader, converted the layout to HO, and my dad gave the O gauge trains to his friend, who had a young son. Wish I still had them. Thirty years later, I restored the HO layout and ran it with my son, but we both had other interests, so we didn't continue with it. Twenty-five years ago, I saw an MTH Premier New York Central Hudson (with sounds) at a train show and I have been an O gauge enthusiast ever since. Despite their movable pilots, oversized couplers and wheel flanges, I much prefer the size, detail and reliable operation of scale-size O gauge locomotives and rolling stock.

Although I've built (and still operate) two scale-detailed O gauge layouts (12'-by-8' and 10'-by-5 with O-72 and O-54 curves), I'm not a big fan of three-rail track, but the tradeoffs are simple wiring and smooth operation without derailments. A downside is that the space I have available limits what I can do in 1:48 O gauge…

Every so often, I think about building a small HO layout, so I then have a look at HO trains and always come to the same conclusion – they’re just too small and don’t impress me. I also consider On30 and have purchased some track and a few locomotives and cars, but they too seem small and fragile – and then there’s the issue of more complicated wiring without that obtrusive center rail.

So, all things considered, if I had it to do over again, it would still be conventional three-rail O gauge for me - no DCS or Legacy command-control.

MELGAR

I agree with your point. While I do like HO because you can make a large layout in a compact space, the sound and smoke of O scale impresses me. I like the features of o scale really. While HO has gotten some of those features- such as smoking whistles. There are barely a handful of models that use them. I have most of them from MTH which sold their HO stuff to scaletrains.

I have spent a lot of time and money in HO but I am considering moving on to something “better”

To the Thread Originator:

I'm going to share with you some thoughts on HO scale, 3-rail, and O 2-rail.

As one that has modeled primarily in HO for the past 60 years, I can share some experience in that scale. I have found that derailments in HO are generally attributed to:

* Switches

* Rough track joints

* Kinks

* Poor curvature (too tight for the intended model)

* Wheel gauge

* Wheel profile

* Couplers

Looking briefly at each one:

SWITCHES:

Do NOT cut corners on switches. Atlas "Snap Track" switches (and similarly low priced switches) are the lowest rung of the ladder for a prefab switch. Use QUALITY switches, such as Atlas "Custom Line", or switches from Peco's line, the Walthers line, and such.

Using less expensive switches typically results in stamped points that are prone to being "picked" by the equipment's wheel flanges, poor frog standards, and such as that. Grief WILL follow. Yes, inexpensive switches can be "tuned" to be more reliable, but that requires knowing what you're doing and being willing to piddle with them.

TRACK (Rough joints, kinks, poor curvature):

Rough Joints/kinks - IF you use sectional track, you will have more joints to deal with, thus more opportunity for a rough joint for the wheel flanges to find and pick at. Using sectional track, each joint must be square (to avoid kinking), and smooth on the inside of the gauge. I prefer to use a quality brand of flex track as much as possible.

Poor curvature: IF using sectional curved track, equipment that is too big for the curvature will cause that engine piece to consistently derail. That is, large steam on 18" radius curves, or large diesels and such combos as that. Typically, 18" curves are best suited to small steam, 4-axle diesels, 40'-50' equipment. ANYTHING larger can result in issues. Thus, one needs to make SURE their mainline and pass track curves are compatible with the LARGEST equipment you intend to run.

WHEEL GAUGE/PROFILE:

Wheels must be in gauge. You will need an HO "Standards" gauge so you can check the gauge of your wheels. Rolling stock is typically very easy to re-gauge to proper gauge if too wide/too narrow. Simply remove the truck and twist as you pull/push the wheel that moves.

You need to consider standardizing on the NMRA Recommended "RP25" wheel profile for code 110 wheels. (The "more scale looking" code 88 wheels require tighter track tolerances.) The code 110's w/RP25 contours will perform better over quality switches than the larger, sharp flanges, that often come on rolling stock of European mfg'er.

COUPLERS:

You need to standardize on "knuckle-type" couplers, preferrably from a single mfg'er. (I use Kadee Products). IF the car is equipped with the old "Horn Hook" HO coupler, remove it IMMEDIATELY and replace with the knuckle of your choice.

ALL couplers need to be BODY MOUNTED. There is no way a truck mounted coupler will EVER be conducive to shoving moves through switches/etc. The nature of the design will force outward pressure in opposite directions, resulting in the flanges looking (and finding) the slightest irregularity in the track.

(The ONLY reason truck-mounted couplers work in 3-rail is because of the extra large flanges on the wheels.)

O SCALE IN GENERAL:

IF you're going to O scale because of the size, AND you're wanting less opportunity for derailment, then 3-rail wheel profiles will offer the best way to fulfill that desire.

IF you want the larger size AND the closer to scale appearance of 2-rail O scale: Then ALL OF THE ABOVE POINTS I shared for HO scale APPLY TO O SCALE 2 RAIL!!

In O 2-rail, larger does not AUTOMATICALLY mean better on-track performance, in fact, it can exacerbate the issue in regard to needed curvature. (You will be alarmed at what a large radius a large steam engine or diesel engine will require.)

ALSO, be reminded that nearly ALL O rail 2-rail is built for track that is a scale of 5' gauge, and not to a prototypical scale of 4' 8.5" gauge. May not bother you, but you need to be aware of it.

Best of luck in your model railroading journey, regardless of what you decide to do.

Andre

@yardtrain posted:

I agree with your point. While I do like HO because you can make a large layout in a compact space, the sound and smoke of O scale impresses me. I like the features of o scale really. While HO has gotten some of those features- such as smoking whistles. There are barely a handful of models that use them. I have most of them from MTH which sold their HO stuff to scaletrains.

I have spent a lot of time and money in HO but I am considering moving on to something “better”

Having been in O gauge for twenty-five years, I tend not to notice the non-scale features such as center rail, oversized couplers and flanges, and movable pilots. Depending on the curve radius of your layout, many scale-sized O gauge models of small and medium-sized locomotives with fixed pilots are available, and steam locomotive models have fixed "cowcatchers." For me, it's important to be able to just power-up the layouts and have the trains running without any fuss. That's why I operate conventionally, although most of my locomotives are MTH Premier with DCS and Lionel Legacy. I didn't become a model railroader to deal with electronic issues. And most of the “advanced” features are not things that I need or use.

MELGAR

@yardtrain posted:

I’ve gotten frustrated with HO lately, while it is the most popular scale- it also leads to a lot of frustrations. Needing essentially perfect track work is one- where as O scale is more forgiving.

You miss out on a lot of the cool features in 3 rail such as steam effects that Lionel rolls out all the time and even MTH is doing now. I know o scale is a lot more expensive however I am drawing more and more to it. Quality over quantity they say. I currently have a ESU CabControl DCC system along with MTH DCS TIU system. Most of my engines are MTH. I like their quality and features over other brands so I am quite familiar with them. I already have a handful of o scale, mostly railking stuff. I am very interested in the new MTH O Scale Premier Hudsons coming out next year with the steaming whistle effect.

What are your thoughts? Have any of you made the switch?

Here is a quick sketch of what a potential o scale layout would look like over the existing HO benchwork  along with some photos of the existing layout. I have spent quite a few years working on this layout with a lot invested. However O scale is really appealing to me lately in terms of the cool effects and overall size of them compared to HO.

Considering your space, you might want to give S-scale a good look.  It doesn't take as much room as 0 gauge.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@MELGAR posted:

Having been in O gauge for twenty-five years, I tend not to notice the non-scale features such as center rail, oversized couplers and flanges, and movable pilots. Depending on the curve radius of your layout, many scale-sized O gauge models of small and medium-sized locomotives with fixed pilots are available, and steam locomotive models have fixed "cowcatchers." For me, it's important to be able to just power-up the layouts and have the trains running without any fuss. That's why I operate conventionally, although most of my locomotives are MTH Premier with DCS and Lionel Legacy. I didn't become a model railroader to deal with electronic issues. And most of the “advanced” features are not things that I need or use.

MELGAR

Having spent a lot of time dealing with track issues, electrical issues and complicated wiring, is a big reason why I am considering O scale. I would like my trains to just turn on and go and not have to deal with managing issues like an actual railroad. I feel as though I made have made a big mistake picking HO scale instead of O scale to begin with.

@laming posted:

To the Thread Originator:

I'm going to share with you some thoughts on HO scale, 3-rail, and O 2-rail.

As one that has modeled primarily in HO for the past 60 years, I can share some experience in that scale. I have found that derailments in HO are generally attributed to:

* Switches

* Rough track joints

* Kinks

* Poor curvature (too tight for the intended model)

* Wheel gauge

* Wheel profile

* Couplers

Looking briefly at each one:

SWITCHES:

Do NOT cut corners on switches. Atlas "Snap Track" switches (and similarly low priced switches) are the lowest rung of the ladder for a prefab switch. Use QUALITY switches, such as Atlas "Custom Line", or switches from Peco's line, the Walthers line, and such.

Using less expensive switches typically results in stamped points that are prone to being "picked" by the equipment's wheel flanges, poor frog standards, and such as that. Grief WILL follow. Yes, inexpensive switches can be "tuned" to be more reliable, but that requires knowing what you're doing and being willing to piddle with them.

TRACK (Rough joints, kinks, poor curvature):

Rough Joints/kinks - IF you use sectional track, you will have more joints to deal with, thus more opportunity for a rough joint for the wheel flanges to find and pick at. Using sectional track, each joint must be square (to avoid kinking), and smooth on the inside of the gauge. I prefer to use a quality brand of flex track as much as possible.

Poor curvature: IF using sectional curved track, equipment that is too big for the curvature will cause that engine piece to consistently derail. That is, large steam on 18" radius curves, or large diesels and such combos as that. Typically, 18" curves are best suited to small steam, 4-axle diesels, 40'-50' equipment. ANYTHING larger can result in issues. Thus, one needs to make SURE their mainline and pass track curves are compatible with the LARGEST equipment you intend to run.

WHEEL GAUGE/PROFILE:

Wheels must be in gauge. You will need an HO "Standards" gauge so you can check the gauge of your wheels. Rolling stock is typically very easy to re-gauge to proper gauge if too wide/too narrow. Simply remove the truck and twist as you pull/push the wheel that moves.

You need to consider standardizing on the NMRA Recommended "RP25" wheel profile for code 110 wheels. (The "more scale looking" code 88 wheels require tighter track tolerances.) The code 110's w/RP25 contours will perform better over quality switches than the larger, sharp flanges, that often come on rolling stock of European mfg'er.

COUPLERS:

You need to standardize on "knuckle-type" couplers, preferrably from a single mfg'er. (I use Kadee Products). IF the car is equipped with the old "Horn Hook" HO coupler, remove it IMMEDIATELY and replace with the knuckle of your choice.

ALL couplers need to be BODY MOUNTED. There is no way a truck mounted coupler will EVER be conducive to shoving moves through switches/etc. The nature of the design will force outward pressure in opposite directions, resulting in the flanges looking (and finding) the slightest irregularity in the track.

(The ONLY reason truck-mounted couplers work in 3-rail is because of the extra large flanges on the wheels.)

O SCALE IN GENERAL:

IF you're going to O scale because of the size, AND you're wanting less opportunity for derailment, then 3-rail wheel profiles will offer the best way to fulfill that desire.

IF you want the larger size AND the closer to scale appearance of 2-rail O scale: Then ALL OF THE ABOVE POINTS I shared for HO scale APPLY TO O SCALE 2 RAIL!!

In O 2-rail, larger does not AUTOMATICALLY mean better on-track performance, in fact, it can exacerbate the issue in regard to needed curvature. (You will be alarmed at what a large radius a large steam engine or diesel engine will require.)

ALSO, be reminded that nearly ALL O rail 2-rail is built for track that is a scale of 5' gauge, and not to a prototypical scale of 4' 8.5" gauge. May not bother you, but you need to be aware of it.

Best of luck in your model railroading journey, regardless of what you decide to do.

Andre

The switches on my current HO layout are either PECO switches with tortise motors or Atlas switches with ground throws. The biggest issue is the overall size of the models. Being so small any small imperfection that can be almost invisible to the naked eye can cause issues down the line without going over everything with a fine tooth comb. I also used all Atlas flex track, which has given me some issues as well. I was able to avoid kinks by giving my track nice smooth curves but as a beginner we all make mistakes to begin with.

I am not really considering 2Rail O scale due to the somewhat lack of popularity- what I mean is there are generally less engines to pick from compared to 3 Rail.

Generally speaking all of my HO equipment is new. All right out of the box from popular vendors within the last 10 years. They all have metal wheels, body mounted couplers and such.

I guess my point is, HO just seems to have more issues than I originally bargained for. I know some of the issues are my fault and have worked to fix them but I have grown tired of fixing things. I just want my trains to work at the end of the day which I know is not always possible but it seems more possible in O Scale from what I have been reading.

@yardtrain posted:

Having spent a lot of time dealing with track issues, electrical issues and complicated wiring, is a big reason why I am considering O scale. I would like my trains to just turn on and go and not have to deal with managing issues like an actual railroad. I feel as though I made have made a big mistake picking HO scale instead of O scale to begin with.

The grass is always greener...

@yardtrain posted:

Having spent a lot of time dealing with track issues, electrical issues and complicated wiring, is a big reason why I am considering O scale. I would like my trains to just turn on and go and not have to deal with managing issues like an actual railroad. I feel as though I made have made a big mistake picking HO scale instead of O scale to begin with.

My O gauge layouts are simple enough that I don't need to run DCS or Legacy Command Control. I used old-fashioned block wiring/control with Atlas O controllers. Conventional operation has saved me the expense and complexity of command-control and I did not want to rewire my older layout for it. I prefer the simplicity of conventional wiring and operation to the features of DCS or Legacy. But, if you go to O gauge, it will be an option you can consider.

MELGAR

@feet posted:

I don't recommend it mostly  because  of the control system mess. Then there's the lack of quality control plus the parts issue.

H O today has sound systems equal to O gauge.  I'm into O gauge myself and looking at doing the opposite of what you want to do.

But if you have the space & money and really want to do this go for it!

Control systems are a double-edged sword.  In two-rail, DCC is a standard (thanks NMRA!) and equipment is readily available.  3-rail is just a mess right now for digital control component availability.  OTOH, while we may think that DCS and TMCC are complicated, have you ever looked at the wiring for a large DCC layout?   

@Mallard4468 posted:

Control systems are a double-edged sword.  In two-rail, DCC is a standard (thanks NMRA!) and equipment is readily available.  3-rail is just a mess right now for digital control component availability.  OTOH, while we may think that DCS and TMCC are complicated, have you ever looked at the wiring for a large DCC layout?   

Well I already have a DCC and a DCS system. Unfortunately component availability is affecting every industry right now

I think what has complicated a lot the control systems has been Lionel. They have several different systems from Lionel Chief to Legacy. For new comers that would be very challenging. I am surprised that the NMRA has not standardized this in O scale. So that way you can buy any engine from different manufacturer and it won’t limit you to a single brand.

@yardtrain posted:

I am not really considering 2Rail O scale due to the somewhat lack of popularity- what I mean is there are generally less engines to pick from compared to 3 Rail... I guess my point is, HO just seems to have more issues than I originally bargained for...I just want my trains to work at the end of the day which I know is not always possible but it seems more possible in O Scale from what I have been reading.

yardtrain:

Given your reply (condensed version above), I would think that some form of 3-rail would be a good fit for you.

Best of luck!

Andre

@bluelinec4 posted:

I have tried HO a few times   ...  The downside is they just don't run as good as O   I don't care what anybody says    Your trackwork has to be perfect to get some semblance of good running  ...

Funny you mention that. I dabbled in N and H.O. in my errant youth and reached the same conclusion, even with good track work. The problem was that there's the entry-level stuff that doesn't run that well (probably designed for kids rather than hobbyists as the entry level). Then the high-end stuff that does run well, but it cost almost as much as O Gauge that, though not high end, ran well. When I returned to the hobby the answer was pretty obvious.

@laming posted:

yardtrain:

Given your reply (condensed version above), I would think that some form of 3-rail would be a good fit for you.

Best of luck!

Andre

How about S Andre?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

How about S Andre?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

That's a good point, Tom.

S scale definitely has more heft than HO, and one could go the hi-rail route which should give better derailment prevention than strictly scale S, PLUS... full blown track systems are available for the h-rail approach.

Don't know trainyard's "Givens n' Druthers" thus how well it could fill his "Druthers"... but yes, if starting from scratch (i.e. no significant investment in the scale one is looking at), hi-rail S could give some very nice looking equipment with decent-to-very-good running qualities AND two rails. With hi-rail flanges, derailments should be minimal.

Good catch!

However, again, "yardtrain" may have zero interest in S, and may already be predisposed toward 3-rail.

Andre

@Devildog posted:

I think what has complicated a lot the control systems has been Lionel. They have several different systems from Lionel Chief to Legacy. For new comers that would be very challenging. I am surprised that the NMRA has not standardized this in O scale. So that way you can buy any engine from different manufacturer and it won’t limit you to a single brand.

Correct me if I’m wrong but new Lionel engines along with any MTH PS3 engines will run on DCC? I know for MTH it will run on DCC with the exception of the quillable whistle

@yardtrain posted:

Correct me if I’m wrong but new Lionel engines along with any MTH PS3 engines will run on DCC? I know for MTH it will run on DCC with the exception of the quillable whistle

The MTH PS3 engines do work with DCC.  However only Lionel S scale American Flyer locomotives with the BEMC electronics work with DCC.  

Like MELGAR I have two compact layouts, only in my case one is Marklin HO. The Marklin system redefines HO with a discrete third rail stud pickup and AC analog or digital operation. The rail profiles and wheel flanges are deeper than conventional scale HO making operation pretty much derailment free.

@yardtrain posted:

I’ve gotten frustrated with HO lately, while it is the most popular scale- it also leads to a lot of frustrations. Needing essentially perfect track work is one- where as O scale is more forgiving.

You miss out on a lot of the cool features in 3 rail such as steam effects that Lionel rolls out all the time and even MTH is doing now. I know o scale is a lot more expensive however I am drawing more and more to it. Quality over quantity they say. I currently have a ESU CabControl DCC system along with MTH DCS TIU system. Most of my engines are MTH. I like their quality and features over other brands so I am quite familiar with them. I already have a handful of o scale, mostly railking stuff. I am very interested in the new MTH O Scale Premier Hudsons coming out next year with the steaming whistle effect.

What are your thoughts? Have any of you made the switch?

Here is a quick sketch of what a potential o scale layout would look like over the existing HO benchwork  along with some photos of the existing layout. I have spent quite a few years working on this layout with a lot invested. However O scale is really appealing to me lately in terms of the cool effects and overall size of them compared to HO.

I am confused by your opening post.  Are all the larger trains on the shelves in the picture your dad's G gauge?  Wondering what O equipment yet you already have?  Sounds like you have already committed to me.

I started the switch from HO to O about 1.5 years ago.  Was in and out of HO since childhood so over 60 years. I have bought quite a bit of equipment, but have not really operated yet.  Just a loop of test track and an old transformer.

But my experience is that the overall hobby of HO is much more clearly defined.  There are differences in the quality and accuracy to detail of equipment, but it is all interchangeable.  It is all 2rail.  The exception being horn hook vs kadee couplers. The other choice being DC or DCC, but even then DCC equipment will operate on DC.  That is because there is an overseeing organization the NMRA.

O is one big friggin mess!  However it can be argued that allows more freedom of choice.

Examples are 2rail or 3rail.  Scale, traditional, or what I like to call semi-scale.  MTH has a different control system vs Lionel which has 2 control systems of their own.

I choose to make the move because I always admired the "Heft" of O vs HO.  Plus I like SteamLined passenger cars in addition to MainLine Steam (screen name).  There are some gorgeous aluminum cars which blow away anything you can buy in HO.   I never could afford O in the past, but carefully buying used equipment I can now, due to market conditions.  Will I go back to HO.  Heck NO.

But if you are escaping HO because of the "difficulty" of easy operation, I think Model Railroading may not be the right hobby for you.  I never had any problems you mention, I stuck to DC for the simplicity and RELIABILITY.

That being said if you want easy carefree operation, stick with Conventional 3rail forget all the bells and whistle.  You can presently buy Traditional Used equipment "dirt cheap".  Actually much less expensive than new HO equipment. It still makes smoke and has whistles.  Operate it on tubular track.  From some of your comments, you don't want to have to fix things.  This type of equipment was designed for kids to play with, so it is bullet-proof as long as you don't drop it on a cement floor.

@rplst8 posted:

.  However only Lionel S scale American Flyer locomotives with the BEMC electronics work with DCC.  

What is BEMC electronics?  I know the Legacy engines will run on DCC.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

What is BEMC electronics?  I know the Legacy engines will run on DCC.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

The BEMC is a smaller motor controller (similar to the RCMC) that is used in the American Flyer trains that Lionel makes that have Legacy. However, they never list DCC as a feature of Legacy except for the American Flyer offerings. Maybe it works for O-scale Legacy items, but I wouldn't risk trying it unless someone knowledgeable could confirm.

Also, even if some of the recent O-scale Legacy offerings do support DCC, since they don't advertise that fact there is really no way to know which items do or do not. So a blanket statement like "I know the Legacy engines will run on DCC" is probably not true. Caveat emptor.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...R-DRIVER-A-F-ALCO-PA

@Devildog posted:

I think what has complicated a lot the control systems has been Lionel. They have several different systems from Lionel Chief to Legacy. For new comers that would be very challenging. I am surprised that the NMRA has not standardized this in O scale. So that way you can buy any engine from different manufacturer and it won’t limit you to a single brand.

I think that the NMRA's DCC standard is followed in 2-rail O scale.  Conforming to NMRA standards (for DCC and anything else) is a choice that is made by each manufacturer - the NMRA can't impose its will on anybody.  In 2-rail, the manufacturers have decided that it's better for everyone to have interoperability.  For whatever reason, Lionel and MTH decided that a proprietary system was the best business decision for them.   

@rplst8 posted:

The BEMC is a smaller motor controller (similar to the RCMC) that is used in the American Flyer trains that Lionel makes that have Legacy. However, they never list DCC as a feature of Legacy except for the American Flyer offerings. Maybe it works for O-scale Legacy items, but I wouldn't risk trying it unless someone knowledgeable could confirm.

Also, even if some of the recent O-scale Legacy offerings do support DCC, since they don't advertise that fact there is really no way to know which items do or do not. So a blanket statement like "I know the Legacy engines will run on DCC" is probably not true. Caveat emptor.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...R-DRIVER-A-F-ALCO-PA

I only deal with S gauge, I am surprised to learn 0 gauge would be different.  Never heard of RCMC either.  I get rid of the Legacy boards anyway, I run DC.  Someday I will be going to DCC just for the sound.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

I only deal with S gauge, I am surprised to learn 0 gauge would be different.  Never heard of RCMC either.  I get rid of the Legacy boards anyway, I run DC.  Someday I will be going to DCC just for the sound.

You get rid of the boards? Can I buy them from you?

I'm not positive, but I thought those could run on DC out of the box.