"T1" 4-4-4-4 Duplex Steam Locomotives - 1940's Pennsylvania Railroad Steam Trains

Thanks for this post Matt - One of my 'most favorite' locomotives!

 

Check this slide show (w/sound) of quite a few of these wonderful beasts. At about 1:04 there is a brief shot of one that appears to be painted in high gloss..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6HTHcouKu4

 

Here's Lionel's 2000 model of the venerable steamer. Oh, for a Legacy version....

A real shame one of these wasn't preserved. Easily one of the most unique steam locomotives ever built.

It's near the top of my to get list.  Probably the last LionMaster version so I can run on my O36 track.

Hi Folks,   

 

I was running my Lionel T-1 on the G&O garden railroad a couple of weeks ago.  It is one of the better looking steam locomotives when in motion or standing still.  

 

The Lionel locomotive gave me fits when I first got it.  Lionel made the middle driver tires too wide.  This would cause shorts between the center and outside rail on O-72 and smaller curves.  The engine couldn't get through the curved portion of any switch without shorting.

 

There were several very useful threads on this forum on how to to fix the problem.  I finally ground down the center drivers.  This eliminated the shorting problem.

 

I ground down the drivers by placing the engine upside down in a foam cradle and slowing running it.  I used a Dremel tool with a grinder to slowly bevel all four center tires.  

 

The engine is one my best runners now that it has been fixed.

 

Joe

How I wish I could have seen one of these locomotives!!! I have the Bowser kit in HO and the high end Broadway model in HO. I bought the Lionel Lionmaster version and it had issues from day one. Bought a Weaver unit from a board member a while back and I now have my ultimate T-1!! 

If I could only keep one O scale loco....this would be it!!!

If you are having problems with T-1s on curves, grab a Right of Way T-1.  I know it's not prototypical, but being articulated it will run around 042 and up curves.  Looks good too.

Attached is a photo of my ROW T-1 together with a photo of the real T-1 coming through Latrobe PA in 1951.

 

Lew Schneider

Oops, better not read my post about C&O stations and the T-!, borrowed to test by the

C&O, being unable to start its load at Cotton Hill, W. Va.  Kidding aside, a friend of mine

used to see their father off as he went to work in an RPO car behind a T-1, Pittsburgh

to Chicago.

That's not good to hear.  What issues did it have?

 

As soon as I get it hung back up on my wall, I'll post a PRR print of this fine locomotive.

The PRR T1 would make a great Lionel Vision Line engine esoecially if they could get the front set of drivers to spin like in the video (plus smoking whistle etc).

 

JohnB

how annoying was the fake projector sound on that clip???

<----- Patiently waiting for a Legacy version with whistle and blow down effects. I hope they do the as delivered version this time around. It is so much prettier IMHO.

coloradohirailer,

 

The stall at Cotton Hill never happened.  Read my reply on the C&O Unique Vintage Stations thread.  See details on the PRR T1 tests on C&O in C&O History, May 2005 issue.

One of the most misunderstood, underrated, and under-appreciated  steamers built in the second quarter of the 20th century....the other being the B&O EM1.  

One of my all time favorites. Nobody has mentioned the MTH version. Mine is a PS-1 model.
I admire the Pennsy for building the T-1, the S-1 and the 4-4-6-4 unit.
Crazy concepts but they spurred the imagination during the art deco period and perhaps other ideas going forward.

Here is a similar clip but edited differently. No association with it but saw it for the first time Sunday night..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E703c-OxADI

For those interested in this outstanding piece of machinery, go to the Classic Trains website, go into the forums, and click on PRR T1.  You'll get some of the best forum type info I've ever read on these engines.  The REAL history of the T1 has only been forthcoming in the last fifteen years, as all most all previous material was pure trash, and foamer legend!

Don't try and confuse us with the actual facts

Nah, wouldn't think of it!

Gee, you can't even trust RR writers...like reading the newspapers' political page.

I second wanting a LionMaster T1.  I already have my number two favorite streamlined steam loco (NYC Dreyfuss Hudson)--this is number one.  Some streamlined casings covered up a steam loco's lines, while others accentuated them; the T1's casing is in a class all its own.  For reference, will the LionMaster T1 fit on the Atlas turntable?

 

As equally as I would love to see one of these in action would be the look on people's faces today if one of these monsters came roaring by at speed !

 

EDIT: Another question: what was the addition of the second headlamp near the pilot for?

 

Aaron

The smoke unit and headlight did not work from day one. Living where I do I had ordered it from a major online retailer. They told me to send it back to Lionel and Lionel said fine but it was going to cost me a lot to ship it to and from.....and since I had just spent almost $650 I thought the shipping should be on them.....we never did agree....so it sits today....runs fine, looks great....no smoke is not an issue....no headlight is.

Thanks for the reply.  I know the feeling about a new locomotive being broke on arrival.  Lucky for me there is a Lionel service center in town, unlucky was that there were no parts, so it sat there for 6+ months until a part showed up.  Needless to say, my son didn't get it for Christmas or his birthday.

Like to see Lionel redo the Big TEE with a correct tender instead of the ill-fitting S2 type from Y2K.  Sunset got it right, so Lionel can too.  Now if they want to get really frisky, they could make No. 5500, with working Franklin Rotary "B" poppet valves and the appropriate frame hangers.  This was the real hot-rod of the T1 fleet, itself a bunch of hot-rods by nearly any standard.  Realistically, I'll likely have to wait for George Kohs to do a PRR T1 project to see any of the variations I'd like to have.

1)  Baldwin 6111 with booster engine, modernized to 1950 standard.

2)  T1 5547 with piston valves all around, and revised engine deck skirt.

3)   T1 5500 with Franklin Rotary "B" poppet gear and cut down tender shroud.

4)   T1 5511 in July of '46 with a revised streamlining that included both elements 

      of the modernized version and the Buick, as built model.

Now let's see if any of this stuff ever happens!

 Copied from the HiRail forum for those who aren't modelers - 

 

coloradohirailer,

 

You can't be too hard on the three co-authors of C&O Power (1965??).  They were using the best available information at the time.  I doubt the C&O test report  had surfaced then.  Dr. Huddleston revised his position in his New River book ca 1987/1993.  The fact that he did so publicly showed he had a lot of personal and professional integrity.  That book got me started on 20 years of T1 research.  I figured if that was wrong (and believe me I quoted the Cotton Hill event just like you did), what else was off center?  I found out that most of what passed for T1 history prior to 1989 was largely fiction, too much entertainment and too few facts.  A lot of articles have been written since detailed research started in the very late 1980's.  Even using dry old dusty facts, it's a pretty wild ride!

Sounds like several easy do it yourself projects

As promised, here is a picture of the painting I have that hangs on my bedroom wall.  It's one of my favorites.

 

 

 

My grandfather was a big railroader, collected a lot of things, and had many experiences.  I so wish I could of somehow recorded them.  What great reading it would of been for others about a time long gone.  Anywho, he had collected many old PRR company calendars and had them rolled up.  Well, my grandmother talked him into letting her mount and coat them is some stuff so he could hang them up and actually enjoy them, almost in a decoupage manner.  Protect the pictures it has, but unfortunately whatever the stuff was it has yellowed over time, and ones that have been in high heat (I had to store some of them for a number of years) have turned very very yellow.  I wish there was a way to restore them or to find these images and get high-res copies for my computer.

If one had been saved, if could be fired up to see if its slippery nature was truth or a myth.

 

There might be a way.  If it were me, I'd scan it on my Epson V700 scanner, then try to correct the color in CS6, and then make a new print.  Good chance this would work.

 

 

Kent in SD

Slippiness in a PRR T1 was as much a matter of who was behind the throttle as much as anything else.  The real old timers, who had cut their teeth on the road's E class Atlantics, knew how to get moving with a tempermental  piece of chooch under the seat cushion.  The newer, K4 generation, especially those on the extra board were not so well acclimated to this type of requirement.  With 205 on the dial and three coupled axles, the K4 was a starting fool !   T1, with a pair of unconnected two coupled axles, plus 300PSI.....better know what you're doing!  

The T1 was intended to replace doubleheaded "regular" engines, and its one crew was going to replace two crews.

 

I think some of its shortcomings were due to some engine crews not really wanting it to perform well for that very reason.

 

Steam history has several examples of this happening when regular freight locomotives were replaced two for one by articulateds.

 

Add to this that PRR didn't really maintain the engines well enough to deliver top performance; the Q2 4-4-6-4s suffered from inadequate maintenance of their anti-slip mechanisms, resulting in the engineer having to throttle back to quell a slip which the anti-slip device probably should have taken care of.  But on both classes, there was "jewelry" in play which shop forces were not accustomed to working with.

 

That said, the T1 would probably have run as fast as any locomotive around, and it's certain that we don't know how fast that really was.

 

EdKing

Did these crews not realize that if they got rid of the T1's, their ultimate replacements would also only require one crew, regardless of how many engines were up front?

I've always read, and my father-in-law confirmed, the modern K4's were so easy to run a monkey might be able to! They were just perfect, simple locomotives. The T1's were more temperament but not as bad as has been written. Very different.....not bad.  I think it was a apple and orange thing....

While poor maintenance contributed to the Duplex operating problems the Q2 anti-slip devise was a poor design and with components not up to the task.

They weren't thinking in terms of diseasels at that time. 

 

EdKing

The corporate hot-shots in Philly and the PRR blue collar classes were seldom, if ever on the same page.  The K4 might have been a terrific chooch in 1914, but by 1940, it had no business on the front of The Great Blue Ribbon Fleet.  PRR was simply too late in getting this passenger power issue in hand...if it was their intention to stay in steam power for much longer.  The S1 Duplex was clearly far too large and unwieldy

for system-wide use, the weight of K4 replacement had to fall on the T1 prototypes.

There were problems with these two, but they were not insurmountable. Marketing strategies changed with Martin Clement towards the end of the war, and although the "production" T1s were built (much material had been amassed prior to this Diesel decision) their status was secondary, even before the paint went on. No one was exactly sure what would happen to the passenger market after the war ended, but it was certain that one T1 would be cheaper to operate than two K4s! One item seldom mentioned in the T1 story is the loss of assignments due to train offs. PRR was dumping passenger trains at least as fast as steam power in the years of T1 operation. A lot of circumstances piled up against these machines in the time just prior to their retirement. The Q2 is another story..it could never be used to it's full effect, even if she was perfect. PRR was a 50MPH freight road.  Too bad the Penn didn't just build another 25 J1 2-10-4s  and open up the Middle Div. so they could run to Enola.  As for PRR maintenance...they were no better with Diesel power than steam! Outside of EMD power (which practically fixes itself) all the new growlers opened up another chapter of Penn roundhouse nightmares.

The best point that I've seen made about the Pennsy Duplexes is this:

 

Even if they were 100% perfect what long term effect would they have had against diesels?  Probably none.  We are talking about seventy eight locomotives (52 T1's and 26 Q2's) out of a roster of thousands.  Also remember that the New York Central had an excellent 4-8-4, and yet before its paint was even dry they were ordering diesels. 

 

In addition remember how many railroads only ordered their last group of steamers because of WWII (limited diesel availability).  I believe that had the war
lasted longer the Pennsy would have corrected the problems with the Duplexes, but with the sudden end of the war (and the ability to buy diesels) there was no longer a need to do so.

 

Stuart

 

Seems this thread has dried up without answering GCRailrays question "will the LionMaster T1 fit on the Atlas turntable?"

Has anyone successfully fit either a Lionmaster T1 #5511 and/or Lionmaster T1 #5514 on an Atlas-O 24 inch turntable?  At an advertised 25 inches over all, it's gonna be close.

 

Ken

My absolute favourite locomotive. There's absolutely no comparison to the sharp styling and monstrous power. If I could afford one (and they made one that would run on O-27) I'd have two. One in the PRR colours and another in some amazingly brutish scheme with the P-40 shark teeth on the nose.

Two23,    as in Five56?

This has been a very interesting and informative thread. Personally, I learned a lot about these amazing steamers from what has been posted.

 

Considering there have been few photos of these beautiful brutes posted here I am starting another thread in the popular "Show us your..." series.

 

 https://ogrforum.com/t...-t1-4-4-4-4-duplexes

 

 Please post photos of YOUR personal T1s over there. Am hoping to see various pics of the MTH versions - both with the blackened drivers and tender antennas as well as the PS1 version with the stainless rims. The Weaver/Williams steamers with the portholes are nice. Also hopefully a few more will show up of the R.O.W. model as posted above. Let's see 'em!