Table Holders & Dealers - Watch your email - 2 Day York?

Unfortunately I'd have to agree.  While I think I know what they want, the combinations of the different categories probably should not have been prefaced with the general "only answer yes to one question" opening paragraph.  (I may be mistaken myself, but I suspect they want one answer per category so as to be able to count up the most popular options among the options within each category.  Maybe it's a "first wave" and depending on what happens with those responses, it may reduce to a much smaller subset of options for a "second wave" survey to be conducted based on the original responses)

If they only truly wanted one answer for the whole list of options, they should not have categorized them.

This is all just my attempt at interpreting (I have no actual insight into the thought process that went into the survey).  Hopefully they update the request with some clarification.

-Dave

Yeah, This isn’t a single YES everything else NO Affair. Instead, they should be asking for an ordered preference. The instructions are unclear as to the desire for one YES per category, or one YES per ballot. In addition, option 2A appears twice as two different options.

I like that they are seeking input, but the method used here does not appear to be polished.

I have no idea what  this thread is about ???

eddie g posted:

I have no idea what  this thread is about ???

EDTCA sent a survey to table holders and dealers soliciting opinions on possibly changing the days of the meet.

Unfortunately the format of the desired response is a bit unclear.

So if you don't hold a table, you would not have received this email.

-Dave

Thanks for asking, Eddie...l ,too, was clueless as to what was addressed..

Did the survey refer to the upcoming October 2019 York?  Or future meets??

Did I miss something in the Quarterly about this? I just searched the TCA and EDTCA websites and can't find anything related to a survey? 

Jameszz posted:

Did I miss something in the Quarterly about this? I just searched the TCA and EDTCA websites and can't find anything related to a survey? 

As stated in the post subject, Table holders and Dealers were emailed the survey discussed. It is not for all TCA or EDTCA members.

bmoran4 posted:

Jameszz posted:

Did I miss something in the Quarterly about this? I just searched the TCA and EDTCA websites and can't find anything related to a survey? 

As stated in the post subject, Table holders and Dealers were emailed the survey discussed. It is not for all TCA or EDTCA members.

I understand that. My concern is that ALL members were not notified of a survey that was being conducted. Unless of course as stated above, I missed something. 

bmoran4 posted:

 It is not for all TCA or EDTCA members.

True. We are only the ones who show up and buy stuff. 

Jameszz posted:

My concern is that ALL members were not notified of a survey that was being conducted. Unless of course as stated above, I missed something. 

The York Meet is a TCA Eastern Division event, not a TCA National event (although participation is certainly national and even international in scope). If the Eastern Div. wishes to survey the dealers/sellers who attend the event, that makes good and perfectly logical sense because the logistics of the meet are determined by the dealers/sellers who participate (number of halls needed, security and vendor arrangements, etc.). I have not seen the survey, which in our case would likely go to Alan Arnold, the Publisher/CEO of our little team, but I am certainly supportive of the Eastern Division's efforts to at least explore alternatives that may best serve their interests going forward.

While I've long known and understood that York is an ED event, and thus is "their business", it's gotten to where York is the tail that wags the TCA dog.  Although I hate hearing it, how many people claim to be a TCA member only so they can attend York?  Due to the importance of York to TCA, I think it would be advisable for ED to consider opinions from members who are outside the division.

Mallard4468 posted:

Due to the importance of York to TCA, I think it would be advisable for ED to consider opinions from members who are outside the division.

Or maybe at least members of ED that don't have a table.

For all we know, this may be a multi step process.

You probably can't ask all options of everyone at one time and expect to come out with a clear winning scenario. 

I could easily see this being step one of many.  (Pure conjecture here).  Step 1 may be to find out the most favorable response from table holders/dealers.  Step 2 may be asking non-table holding participants.  Once you have those results, then hold a larger group survey with the options reduced to those that were most favorable from each group.

And, no, this has nothing to do with October 2019!  That is set in stone by now, of course (we are more than halfway through August!).  I assume they would like time to actually receive responses, evaluate, possibly float other surveys to other participants, etc long before any formal decision is made.

-Dave

We've all heard it before: "You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time. But you can't please all of the people all of the time." The Eastern Division and their membership can darn well do what they feel is in their best interest because there will ALWAYS be some who will be unhappy.

Allan Miller posted:

Jameszz posted:

My concern is that ALL members were not notified of a survey that was being conducted. Unless of course as stated above, I missed something. 

The York Meet is a TCA Eastern Division event, not a TCA National event (although participation is certainly national and even international in scope). If the Eastern Div. wishes to survey the dealers/sellers who attend the event, that makes good and perfectly logical sense because the logistics of the meet are determined by the dealers/sellers who participate (number of halls needed, security and vendor arrangements, etc.). I have not seen the survey, which in our case would likely go to Alan Arnold, the Publisher/CEO of our little team, but I am certainly supportive of the Eastern Division's efforts to at least explore alternatives that may best serve their interests going forward.

I should have been more clear in my comment. I'm a member of the EDTCA. While I certainly give them credit for getting feedback on the meet it would have been nice to at least been informed of a survey that was being conducted. I'm not a dealer/table holder so I don't expect to be part of the survey, just informed that it was happening. 

Comes down to

leave it alone as is Thursday Friday and Saturday 

or

Friday, Saturday, and Sunday

or

Friday and Saturday

or

Saturday and Sunday

or

April 2 day and October 3 day  same hours for both meets .

I found the email a bit confusing as well by that's the mist of it .

Marty, How about just Thursday 9-5 and Friday 9-5. or Just leave it the way it is.

As a table holder who still likes to browse a bit, I note the return to 2 day means only one hour (the first of the 2 days) for the member halls to close earlier than the dealer halls.

(Of course, I think it was always the same hours for all halls back when it was 2 days, so I guess this is still better than that).

I'd miss having the hour on each of the 2 days after member halls close to browse the dealers.   Obviously still can't see everything (and the "mega deals" are of course gone by then), but I enjoy trying to make the most of the hour in the dealer halls each day before heading to dinner.

I'm guessing since nothing included this option (unless I read it too quickly), the later hours for dealers on Saturday (coinciding with the public entry that started a few meets back) is deemed not worth keeping that way.  (Which I am sure is true, since some dealers were still packed up and gone by noon or so on Saturday even with the extension of the hours.)

-Dave

Wow..surprised one option was Saturday AND Sunday, as that has never seemed an option.  Not every member is a retiree, and people have complained about working stiffs just getting the picked bones.  No problem for me and many now, but l can sympathize from the past.

No matter the day, or the closing time, the dealers will start packing-up 2-4 hours in advance.

In reality if Saturday was such a boom for those who have to work, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Unless the public are going to start coming out in droves then IMO Saturday is still going to be a bust as will a Sunday show.  Thursdays and Fridays are currently the big days.  I really don't see that changing.  Sunday IMO is a non starter because the dealers want to get back and are often a days travel away.

Personally for me whatever works best for the EDTCA, after all it's their meet, works for me.  I'll adjust my schedule accordingly.  I've said it before, they are the victim of their own success.  The train meet turned into a large show that is difficult to support given the current social dynamics.  

I assume the "rent" for the fairgrounds is much higher on weekends than week days. I remember a meet where the modular group I was with (Flower City) had to vacate the Black Hall a bit early on a Saturday due to a wedding reception. As far as weekends go, we are a group of train nuts, not a family with kids looking for weekend entertainment. Being with a modular group for  entire weekends gives you a feel of reality, almost as good as being a dealer at a Greenberg-type weekend show. 

As far as I know, the issue is money.  The Eastern Division has to cover the cost of the show and the dealers want a return on their investment.  Attracting more people addresses both.   TCA members are already attending.  That leaves the public which is a bust so far.  The public means you need to attract families with kids on weekends.  Add Sunday and lots of layouts.  Keep Thursday and Friday for Members only.  Better yet if you could get a full Sunday.

You have to advertise the change since the public’s impression is it’s a members show with minimum layouts.  Also, all buildings should be open to the public on weekends.

When York got big (30ish years ago), it was primarily a Friday show.  Back then, the average TCA member was still in the workforce, so it meant taking a day off from work, which didn't seem to hold the crowd down.  And many of those folks still had young children in school.

I'm still in the workforce, and have never understood the big deal about taking a couple of days off work once or twice a year.  Most people end up having to take days at the end of the year in order to use them or lose them anyway, and a few idiots even leave days on the table.  THEY'RE YOUR DAYS - USE THEM!  Life is too short.

And just so you know, I've taken days off during times when I've had a management position, and when I've been an independent contractor, when a day off meant lost revenue.  Did I mention that life is too short?

It's been beaten to death (every 6 months), but with the way York is structured (it's not a "show") and with the tax issue, it's never going to be a big public meet.

I can understand if tableholders and volunteers want to cut back to two days, and I'm OK with it.  But a Saturday and Sunday schedule is a loser for many due to travel, and as long as York is a function for TCA members, switching to those days solves nothing anyway.

MartyE posted:

In reality if Saturday was such a boom for those who have to work, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Unless the public are going to start coming out in droves then IMO Saturday is still going to be a bust as will a Sunday show.  Thursdays and Fridays are currently the big days.  I really don't see that changing.  Sunday IMO is a non starter because the dealers want to get back and are often a days travel away.

Personally for me whatever works best for the EDTCA, after all it's their meet, works for me.  I'll adjust my schedule accordingly.  I've said it before, they are the victim of their own success.  The train meet turned into a large show that is difficult to support given the current social dynamics.  

Marty, I agree that every works best for EDTCA, it is their event.  However, I think the Saturday performance is more that it is the third day of a three day show.  It would be much diferent if it was day two of a two day show.

can we get some politics in this thread so it can be removed

Rich883 posted:

Marty, I agree that every works best for EDTCA, it is their event.  However, I think the Saturday performance is more that it is the third day of a three day show.  It would be much diferent if it was day two of a two day show.

Have to agree with that. (or at least confirm it wasn't as dead on Saturday when it was still just a 2 day show - I am not going to pretend I can predict what would happen if they switch back now.  Depending how the votes go and what action comes of them, maybe we will find out )

Back when it was only 2 days, you could not roll a bowling ball (maybe not even a golf ball!) down an aisle in a member hall at the Saturday opening without hitting anyone like you can some meets now.  Saturday morning was just as much of a herd of people, at least at the start.

Some of that change may be demographic evolution, but I think a lot was because there was more "rush" required when it was only 2 days.

It could actually be hard to see all the halls  (especially if you stopped to buy, maybe chat with a couple people, etc) just on Friday.  Saturday was more of a "hit all the things I missed" clean up day (IMO).  Now I think there is more leisure, and with that perhaps a bit of complacency.  Some of it is the specific separation of the Orange hall (some people apparently never leave it).  I am pretty sure there are still people who think there is nothing but rusted pre-war and post-war in the member halls.

I was never a table holder back then, but remember them well as a buyer.  Yes, people still packed up a little (maybe an hour or 2) early, but nothing like they do now on Saturday, probably because it is day #3.

-Dave

Would the last person leaving please turn the lights out. 

Gerry 

Joe Hohmann posted:

I assume the "rent" for the fairgrounds is much higher on weekends than week days. I remember a meet where the modular group I was with (Flower City) had to vacate the Black Hall a bit early on a Saturday due to a wedding reception. As far as weekends go, we are a group of train nuts, not a family with kids looking for weekend entertainment. Being with a modular group for  entire weekends gives you a feel of reality, almost as good as being a dealer at a Greenberg-type weekend show. 

Several years ago I was told by the staff at the EDiv's membership desk that the York Fairgrounds would only rent the fairgrounds to the EDiv on a SUN to SAT term and it did not matter if they used 7, 6, 5, or 4 buildings (the rent fee was the same) and they must adhere to the fairgrounds operating hours and security procedures.  Obviously facility rental terms can change based on the local mgmt, area economy, supply and demand.  I'm sure someone "in the know" can shed more light on the current and/or possible future options.

Rich883 posted:

MartyE posted:

In reality if Saturday was such a boom for those who have to work, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Unless the public are going to start coming out in droves then IMO Saturday is still going to be a bust as will a Sunday show.  Thursdays and Fridays are currently the big days.  I really don't see that changing.  Sunday IMO is a non starter because the dealers want to get back and are often a days travel away.

Personally for me whatever works best for the EDTCA, after all it's their meet, works for me.  I'll adjust my schedule accordingly.  I've said it before, they are the victim of their own success.  The train meet turned into a large show that is difficult to support given the current social dynamics.  

Marty, I agree that every works best for EDTCA, it is their event.  However, I think the Saturday performance is more that it is the third day of a three day show.  It would be much diferent if it was day two of a two day show.

I agree with Rich's assertion regarding Saturday's turnout during the 2 day (FRI/SAT) era.  My York experience only goes back to '98 and due to professional and personal demands it wasn't until the last 3 years that I was able to attend on FRI, but all prior meets were limited to SAT.  IIRC the 2 day SAT attendance was not as big as FRI, but it was quite crowded.  The SAT crowd continued into the first several 3 day SAT meets/shows but by 2006ish you can easily tell from the halls and available parking that SAT attendance of both members and dealers was declining. 

Prior to the current decline in membership, attendance and table fees I believe that the EDiv BoD was too rigid or possibly arrogant in its lack of promotion of the meet to membership and train collectors.  The no photos and little promo info to the trade when the hobby was experiencing its second surge from the late '80's to early 2000's was opportunity lost.  The current photo policy is good and the limited public entry offering hopefully helpful, but those might be too little too late to make a material impact because general public advertisement of the meet/show is virtually non-existent.  Rather the financial and volunteer (time and physical) demands and resources will likely determine the current and future formats of this meet.

Based on the financial cost and as important the volunteer requirements to run such an event I think its wise for the EDiv Board of Directors to gather as much information as they can.  The EDiv's BoD operational bylaws likely permit them to perform certain functions - like this table holder survey - that do not require "FULL" membership approval.   Once they obtain their needed information they are better able to make an informed decision/proposal to present to the EDiv members if required.

DAVE45681, Saturday was always dead.even when the MEET was just Friday & Saturday. But then I have only been going 45 years, and had a table the first 30 to 35 years.  I believe over 85 times, 530 miles each way. Like I have said, 9-5 Thursday & 9-5 on Friday.

rattler21 posted:

Do any members know of a Train Show or Swap Meet that is open later than 3PM on Sunday?  The 11 monthly Sunday shows in Wheaton close at 3PM and the after Thanksgiving LCCA/TCA/LOTS show in Crown Point closes at 3PM on Sunday.  I don't think the Eastern Division has their heads in the sand.     John in Lansing, ILL

Although not beyond SUN 3PM, the FEB/NOV Allentown Train Meets are open SAT 8AM (prebuy-earlybird) 9AM-4pm and SUN 8am(prebuy) 9AM-3PM

eddie g posted:

DAVE45681, Saturday was always dead.even when the MEET was just Friday & Saturday. But then I have only been going 45 years, and had a table the first 30 to 35 years.  I believe over 85 times, 530 miles each way. Like I have said, 9-5 Thursday & 9-5 on Friday.

As I witnessed and described above Eddie, I respectfully disagree with "always".

eddie g posted:

DAVE45681, Saturday was always dead.even when the MEET was just Friday & Saturday. But then I have only been going 45 years, and had a table the first 30 to 35 years.  I believe over 85 times, 530 miles each way. Like I have said, 9-5 Thursday & 9-5 on Friday.

Well, I've only been 45 consecutive times (October will be 46).  Then again, I'm probably only  a little over half your age , so I have a while to catch up (and please don't take offense at that, I hope to have your energy!)  I am not suggesting I would have that sort of dedication if I lived as far away as you do either.  I participate regularly since I only live 2 hours away.  If that ever changes, my attendance habits would most likely change.

I definitely remember queuing up outside the Red and White halls on Saturday mornings after breakfast in the late 90's into early 00's.  What I observed then (as a solely a buyer wandering up and down the aisles to make purchases) was much more of a crowd than the last few years as I've been sitting at my table on Saturday morning.

-Dave

All I know is whatever the days of the meet are, I will be there.

-Greg