Ted Hikel - Here is the simple answer

I agree, and with the application of Kadee pads I would definitely buy more Lionel product.  Out of 4 dozen pieces of rolling stock that I run, only 4 are Lionel (tankcar, boxcar, 2 flatcars), less than 8%.  Of these 4, only 1 still has original paint, an LCCA tankcar lettered for Virginia Chemicals.  The other 3 have been repainted.

Excellent post, marker. I agree, whole heartedly. I must have over 250 pieces of steam era freight rolling stock, from all manufacturers. Except from Lionel, only 4 of the twin TOFC flats with trailers, 1 50 foot flat car with the beautiful wood flooring, and 1 UP steam era UP caboose. That's 6 cars! I even operate quite a number of 2-Rail truck equipped freight cars & cabooses from the "old days of O Scale", since I modified my Atlas switches per Soo Nut's instructions.

It has become a matter of principle; no more Lionel freight cars for me until they begin to market to scale modelers!

I presently don't even consider Lionel when buying anything.   The Blt  by Lionel and the absence of Kadee pads is a non-starter for me.   These latest reefer cars sure...   ya nice but the effort to 3RS them just because Lionel is being stubborn...  Well...  I can be stubborn too and vote with my $$$ :-)

Marker

I'll make a point to stop in at the Lionel Booth at York next month and mention the "Built by Lionel" issue to the product development guys there.  I'll let you know what they have to say.

Based on my previous conversations with Lionel people I have the impression that they are happy to listen to their customers requests and will respond when ever it makes good business sense.  That includes the customers for the Standard O line of scale products.

However,I think we all need to keep in mind that Lionel's customer base is different than that of Atlas, MTH or Weaver.  Lionel has a very strong following among collectors, traditionalist and just plain died in the wool Lionel train guys.  For every four potential customers who want scale models that don't say "Built by Lionel" their may be 400 long term Lionel customers who would be upset by it's discontinuance.

I must day that I'm a little bit puzzled by the energy expressed over this issue.  Especially when put this way.

I don't expect the correct hatch set up.  There are those that could model that. This is the larger issue as Hot Water pointed out...

Rebuilding hatches is a significant project.  How can a tiny bit of lettering be a larger issue than than something that takes cutting styrene to fix?  Can anyone here even see that tiny letting without their bifocals?  It it really bothers you, how long does it take to patch out the 3/8" Built by lettering before weathering a car?

If any of you go to York I encourage you to speak to the people from Lionel yourselves.  But if you do please don't begin by saying:

I presently don't even consider Lionel when buying anything.

or

It has become a matter of principle; no more Lionel freight cars for me until they begin to market to scale modelers!

I've found it far more helpful to begin by saying how much I like a manufacturer's products, that I own several, that I would like to buy more in the future and that they would really have me hooked if they would do XYZ.  That approach, combined with good information on the prototype, can go a long way in helping a manufacturer to serve the scale part of the market.

That really is the key to it.  Be nice.  And be a customer with a reasonable request and good information.  Since I don't know too much about the Santa Fe I asked you guys about their mechanical reefers.  Thanks to Marker and Allan E plus a little research of my own I had good information to pass along to Lionel.  Hopefully that will result in more accurate Santa Fe mechanical reefers. 

Surprisingly, I tried that quite some years ago, and got no where. For what it's worth, K-Line was putting that "Blt by K-Line ####" on their scale freight equipment, and when the same subject was pointed out to THEM, they quickly stopped painting that on there.

What are Kadee pads?

Thank You, Ken

Something that I'd really like to see to help realism would be to have the manufacturer put the built date in the catalog.  On occasion I've bought a piece that was built after the time frame I wanted but would have most likely been built earlier.

Maybe someone could mention this to manufacturers at York.

alan

I had many of the same feelings expressed above about Lionel and lots more when I was doing 3RS.  I switched to 2 rail O scale for lots of reasons other than Lionel.  But, my growing dissatisfaction with Lionel Legacy quality issues did nudge me along the merry path to 2 rail. Three of my last five Legacy engines had to go back for warranty repairs.  One twice.

Life got a lot easier for me with the decision to go 2 rail.  Thankfully Lionel engines are no longer an option.  And I've never much liked their rolling stock and only have a few cars to sell.  And I'm down to my last two Lionel engines which I plan to sell during the fall season.

So, I no longer fret about an increasingly heartless large corporation which clearly has a bottom line culture at the top. 

Bye, bye Lionel.  Life is good. 

They are the spot were you would body mount the Kadee coupler box & coupler assembly. The "pads", one at each end of the car, also have pre-drilled mounting holes for the Kadee coupler box. MTH and Weaver do an EXCELLENT job of providing the CORRECT spot for mounting Kadees, and MTH even includes the correct thickness shim for body mounting Kadee coupler assemblies to their newest freight cars. Atlas O freight cars are pre-drilled for their own O Scale coupler & box assembly, but it is still fairly easy to simply re drill the correct mounting holes on the Atlas cars, to accept Kadees.

Apparently Lionel is the last manufacturer to acknowledge a growing market for 3RS, or just plain O scale rolling stock for the 2-rail modelers.

Marker

I'm happy to reply. I'm always happy to learn more about the prototype and the models available to us.  And I think it helps the hobby if modelers and model manufacturers understand each other better.  York is a great place get to talk to the people who bring us new models.

I've been researching O scale freight cars the last few years and I am amazed at the investment the manufacturers have made in tooling.  Atlas, Lionel, MTH and Weaver have tools for about 200 different freight cars.  And that number is just for scale cars, not traditional or semi-scale cars. 

In trying to get a handle on just what has been made I was surprised to see how many fewer road names and car numbers Lionel has made when compared to Atlas and MTH.  Lionel seems to sell fewer different products but sells them in larger numbers than their competition.  And I do think that has to do with branding and the market segment served by each brand.

Both Atlas and MTH sell model trains in other scales.  Lionel is focused on three rail toy trains.  Lionel makes some scale models just like they did 75 years ago.  And, like 75 years ago, their O scale models are among the best available. But the core of their customers base is devoted to Lionel due to fond memories.  As scale modelers I think we can sometimes overlook just how important that is to Lionel.

You are right that no O scale brass manufacturer visibly brands their trains.  Outside the hobby no one knows or cares about brass importers.  But ask the general public what product they associate with the brand Lionel and the association with toy trains is still almost as strong a Ivory with soap.  Lionel is a great brand name like nothing else in the model industry.  Lionel continues to trade on that weather it is with train sets in major retailers or with the scale end of their line.  If Lionel thought they could sell more trains by removing the built by lettering I think they would do it.  But we likely have an uphill climb to convince them that their sales would be enhanced by doing it.  If you surveyed Lionel customers I'll bet most of them own far more than 6 Lionel cars and of those more like the "Built by Lionel" lettering than dislike it.

I will ask the Lionel reps about it next month.  I'll let you know what they have to say.

When it comes to painting I think we have differing concepts.  I certainly acknowledge that matching exact shades or glossiness is hard to do.  But why try and hide a patch job?  Celebrate it!  Freight cars are patched and re-stenciled all the time and the paint never matches exactly.  Patch it, use a dry transfer or decal and weather the car.  Take a look at this original.  It has patched paint and the the patches don't match the base coat.  Add a little road grime and you have a great scale model.  And the Lionel guys can have their Built by Lionel lettering.

 http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=2403973

I wrote a long post this morning.  When I thought I clicked submit post it vanished (sometimes I click post reply or something and I mess things up).  I finally worked to posting something again.

Ted - Very well thought post and thanks for sharing your research.

I hope your suggestion that Lionel buyers care about Lionel on scale like equipment is wrong, but the truth is just supposed as opposed to known, perhaps Lionel could float an experiment on some Standard O cars without the "Blt by", either calling it a separate line of Standard O, or just put out some desirable Standard O cars and see if there are any complaints.

So briefly, although great advice for post 50's modelers, the patch suggestion doesn't work for me. From all the pictures I have looked at, Santa Fe attempted to keep its fleet reasonably clean and well painted.  With exceptions like the war years, I think they were conscientious about their reefer fleet.  Therefore I would doubt that a string of 8 or more reefers with patches wouldn't work that well.  Like the Santa Fe, my reefer trains will probably be the most important freights. 

I see some great weathering on this forum, SIRT comes to mind.  For me, the problem is the pictures I see of 30's, 40's and 50's Santa Fe trains, and model railroads built by Santa Fe modelers (usually HO) at the top of their game, don't show models with a lot of rust and patching.  That seems to start more in the 60's and later when maintaining looks became less important (like the picture you posted), than keeping maintenance costs down.  Grime, dirt, and soot seem to predominate the earlier years, especially during WWII and a bit less so with the Korean War.  I think the odds of seeing a string of 10 to 20 slogan SFRD reefers with patches in the same place would not work, at least for me.

Don't misunderstand my feelings about Lionel.  I think they did a great job with their Standard O line.  On Santa Fe equipment, I am surprised how exacting the research with regard to numbering and lettering has been.  I could cite a number of examples how they have outdone the competition, but that's more for Santa Fe enthusiasts.

Please talk to them and if I go to York next month (I have the badges), I'll see if someone representing Lionel will pay any attention to me.

BTW it isn't only Lionel.  When you ask what more could be done, in the past I have contacted MTH and explained how they could take their Santa Fe dies and produce more Classes of Santa Fe engines they haven't yet made.  No more investment, just using different combos of tenders and engines and then numbering them properly.  You would think that would get their attention, but they just keep producing the same engines with different numbers.    

Ted - I emailed a few friends that operate 3 rail scale sized equipment (Std O, Premier, Atlas, Weaver, etc.), they have not chosen to go with Kadees.  (I chose those modelers because I felt they would be more likely to want the "Blt by", than modelers using Kadees.)  This was the consensus, they could take or leave the "Blt by".  Some have removed it but feel they pay a penalty with regard to resale.  The primary reason most don't remove it is resale value, which is also why some of them have chosen to keep the Lionel couplers.

So, what does that mean?  I think that is saying that if Lionel removed the "Blt by" that would be fine because upon resale, that wouldn't be a determent to value.  People are not buying because of the "Blt by", but they don't want to loose value because it was removed.

Lionel should test market some Standard O without the "Blt by Lionel".  If that came out positive, they should add Kadee pads and see how that goes.  It ought to begin with one of their more desirable cars in a popular road name.   

Ted - My LAST point.  As I was working on the last Kadee conversion I was looking at the car and something caught my eye, or should I say that the lack of something caught my eye.  If you pop them out you can read them.

The 2009 Train Collectors Association, 2009 Convention chose to leave off the "Blt by Lionel" on the Standard O reefer they selected as a convention car.  Sorry to drive home the point, but that is Train COLLECTORS and they chose to leave off the "Blt by".  It would be interesting to get a sales count vs. other Standard O Convention cars.

Ted - Although I don't know you, I'm sure you are a good guy and not against this, so don't take my argument to personally.  It is what I think Lionel should consider, but I don't have their ear. 

Ted;

A perfect example is on page 162 of Cinthia & Stephen Priest's  "Santa Fe Heritage, Vol !".  There is a picture of a well weathered ATSF reefer being iced.  It is a plug door with no saffety platform, hatches facing out a la the Lionel car and at least two visible patches that are much cleaner than the rest of the car side.  The ATSF Color Guide has a similar picture of a weathered reefer with two small light yellow patches.

Allan

The ATSF Color Guide has a similar picture of a weathered reefer with two small light yellow patches.

Allan - You are tending to make my point.  I belive you are pointing out the lower picture on page 94, taken in September 1972 of a reefer that is being scrapped.

I don't have the Priest book, but a lot of their publications and pictures deal with post 1960 equipment.  Is there a date on that photo?

Maybe railcars should have the 3-2 concept MTH has with their locomotives.

Weaver and Atlas already offer 3-Rail AND 2-Rail freight rolling stock, and MTH now offers 2-Rail freight trucks.

Marker;

Nope but close.  I was referring to the still in service car shown on p. 92.

Allan

Lionel has new tooling for the "Pennsylvania Round Roof Boxcar" coming out in ~Oct 12.  Lets hope they put Kadee pads on them not just reused a bottom from and older car.

It's their/our opportunity.

Dan

Thanks Allan, I think that is still post 1960 because of the barcode (ACI plate) below the "th" in "all the way".

I am going to look again through some of my reference material and see if anything shows up.  I'm open to the possibility.

Now I could be talked in to one of those, assuming there is no "Blt by Lionel ****". However, if they come up with Kadee compatible mounting pads, I guess I'll just scrape off the "Blt by,,,,," stuff.

Maybe railcars should have the 3-2 concept MTH has with their locomotives.

Weaver and Atlas already offer 3-Rail AND 2-Rail freight rolling stock, and MTH now offers 2-Rail freight trucks.

Not only is MTH offering 2 rail trucks and Kadee mounting pads on most of their scale cars MTH has built factory 2 rail cars for sale through Petersen Supply. 

It seems that Atlas, Lionel and MTH will all make specially decorated or configured cars for dealers or clubs.  So if we can't get exactly what we want directly from the manufacturer we could get it from a club or dealer if we could convince them there was a market for a special run.

It is what I think Lionel should consider, but I don't have their ear.

Marker

All I did to "get their ear" was walk up to the booth at York and follow up the conversation with an email containing a link to the information you and Allan posted here.  If you are going to York I encourage you to do the same.  If Lionel or any other manufacturer hears similar things from multiple customers we are more likely to get what we are asking for.

I should be at the DCS users dinner on Wednesday and Thursday at Fridays at York next month.  If you are there please say hello.

Ted - The main reason I'm going to York is to lobby for things I would like to see. 

Now that I have some reefers to switch, I would love to see MTH produce a -2 version of their Alco S-2 switcher.

I thought I would add that looking at the TCA offerings for next year's convention in Saint Louis, the Standard O convention cars seem to have no "Blt by" on them.  I wasn't, but now I'm going to buy both. 

http://www.tcamembers.org/offe.../2013/cc2013-1lg.jpg

http://www.tcamembers.org/offe...2013/cc2013-2.lg.jpg

Ted;

A perfect example is on page 162 of Cinthia & Stephen Priest's  "Santa Fe Heritage, Vol !".  There is a picture of a well weathered ATSF reefer being iced.  It is a plug door with no saffety platform, hatches facing out a la the Lionel car and at least two visible patches that are much cleaner than the rest of the car side.  The ATSF Color Guide has a similar picture of a weathered reefer with two small light yellow patches.

 

Allan

 I was cleaning up today and found that I did have this book.  I see the picture and yes, there are patches.  Although not dated, nothing in the background would lead one to think it is anything beyond mid-60's, probably earlier. 

Another interesting thing to note in the picture, is the hatches that were modified to accommodate the icing machines.