Tender Works Then Doesn't When Connected to Loco Help Please

Sometimes the loco runs at such a low voltage that the tender motor is starved and cannot operate. Try putting the loco in neutral and testing the whistle.

There are ways to slow down the loco motor with diodes or with Zener diodes.

Hey,

Done that, and the whistle works pretty good. Would like it to work when the loco is pulling.

RoyBoy

I am just learning about diodes, saw a thing on youtube and it worked pretty good and understood for having a transformer adapted to DC current from Ac current. Then he showed how to use diodes to make a reverse light when reversing. Oh the pain, the pain, really interesting tho. Please inform on how to adjust loco motor speed.

The postwar whistle tenders need full transformer voltage to sound properly. When running just the loco and tender,  the loco has to be at full power for the whistle tender to work properly. The loco and tender alone may run too fast for your layout. The ultimate solution is to run a train of cars behind the loco and tender. This way you will need to apply more power to the track, giving the tender the voltage needed to operate properly.

Larry

Hey Larry

Will that possibly burn the motor up? That is on the loco? I am using an Lionel 80 watt trans., on a small round track due to lack of area.

TrainLarry,

Tried as you requested on a consist three metal log cars, higher speed and this works. The only thing that concerns me is the speed at which the wheels are turning( motor is not hot),. Will the motor burn up from prolonged speed?

RoyBoy posted:

Sometimes the loco runs at such a low voltage that the tender motor is starved and cannot operate. Try putting the loco in neutral and testing the whistle.

There are ways to slow down the loco motor with diodes or with Zener diodes.

RoyBoy

Need to learn, please answer how to connect diodes, what diode and what part of the motor.

I borrowed this image from one of Gunrunnerjohn's posts.

Ignore the fact that there are two motors and that they are can motors. You can put diode PAIRS in series with one of the locomotive motor brush leads - either one. The brushes are those little spring loaded carbon rods that ride on the commutator.

The diode pairs can be from the 1N400X series, where X is any number 4 or higher. Each diode PAIR will drop the voltage to the motor approximately .7 volts. The bridge rectifiers will each drop 1.4 volts.

In the example above, each motor will see 2.8 volts less than the whistle motor will see for the same track voltage.

When running postwar using a modern transformer, one technique is to press the whistle button at medium speed. When you hear the whistle relay begin to activate, boost the voltage with the throttle. The whistle will sound loudly and the engine will not gain any appreciable speed. As you release the whistle button, throttle the voltage back at the same time to keep the engine under control. With a little practice, this works well. 

On some postwar transformers, the whistle button or lever actually has two positions. As you move it halfway the relay should activate, then as you push it further it automatically boosts the voltage to make the whistle sound.

If the whistle needs extremely high voltage to produce a clear sound, it probably needs servicing (bearing lube, commutator cleaning, brush cleaning or replacement).

If the whistle relay itself doesn't begin to activate at low to medium speed, it needs adjusting or repair. You can bend the relay contacts toward each other to make them activate at a lower voltage. 

Postwar whistles have always worked best when using postwar transformers. Modern electronic whistles on the other hand seem to work best on modern transformers. Boosting the voltage manually, as I have described, is the best way to get a modern transformer to activate a stubborn postwar whistle. As Larry said, postwar whistles need quite a bit of power to sound clearly.

Jim

Some questions before you start. What 80 watt transformer are you using? The whistle mechanism may have been changed sometime in it's past life. Lionel used 2 different whistle assemblies. One for 027 locos. The other for heavier O gauge engines.

The 027 version runs at a lower voltage.

RoyBoy posted:

I borrowed this image from one of Gunrunnerjohn's posts.

Ignore the fact that there are two motors and that they are can motors. You can put diode PAIRS in series with one of the locomotive motor brush leads - either one. The brushes are those little spring loaded carbon rods that ride on the commutator.

The diode pairs can be from the 1N400X series, where X is any number 4 or higher. Each diode PAIR will drop the voltage to the motor approximately .7 volts. The bridge rectifiers will each drop 1.4 volts.

In the example above, each motor will see 2.8 volts less than the whistle motor will see for the same track voltage.

Thanks RoyBoy, I'm sure to have questions. Will get back with you.

Jim Policastro posted:

When running postwar using a modern transformer, one technique is to press the whistle button at medium speed. When you hear the whistle relay begin to activate, boost the voltage with the throttle. The whistle will sound loudly and the engine will not gain any appreciable speed. As you release the whistle button, throttle the voltage back at the same time to keep the engine under control. With a little practice, this works well. 

On some postwar transformers, the whistle button or lever actually has two positions. As you move it halfway the relay should activate, then as you push it further it automatically boosts the voltage to make the whistle sound.

If the whistle needs extremely high voltage to produce a clear sound, it probably needs servicing (bearing lube, commutator cleaning, brush cleaning or replacement).

If the whistle relay itself doesn't begin to activate at low to medium speed, it needs adjusting or repair. You can bend the relay contacts toward each other to make them activate at a lower voltage. 

Postwar whistles have always worked best when using postwar transformers. Modern electronic whistles on the other hand seem to work best on modern transformers. Boosting the voltage manually, as I have described, is the best way to get a modern transformer to activate a stubborn postwar whistle. As Larry said, postwar whistles need quite a bit of power to sound clearly.

Jim

Thanks Jim

Chuck Sartor posted:

Some questions before you start. What 80 watt transformer are you using? The whistle mechanism may have been changed sometime in it's past life. Lionel used 2 different whistle assemblies. One for 027 locos. The other for heavier O gauge engines.

The 027 version runs at a lower voltage.

 Hello Chuck,                                                                                                                                                             It is an 027 loco 2466w (027 or 0 ? )tender. Transformer is a Lionel 80 modern. Change mech., I have no idea.

Thanks

I think your problem is the transformer. New transformers don't play well with postwar engines. CW 80's don't have a 5 volt compensating circuit needed by postwar whistles to operate well.  Try a postwar 1033 and see what happens.

Chuck Sartor posted:

I think your problem is the transformer. New transformers don't play well with postwar engines. CW 80's don't have a 5 volt compensating circuit needed by postwar whistles to operate well.  Try a postwar 1033 and see what happens.

Chuck,

Seems like a good thing to try. Do you have a idea which transformer came with the 1666E set?

Most likely a prewar 1041.

OK Guys,

You have given excellent advice and more!

Became a little curious about my original loco 1666e that at I had first bought years ago. The just purchased 1666e loco which I bought was for spare parts. Then I had all this great info from all of you and started doing more research and ran across an article which explained the differences in the postwar and prewar 1666e locos and tenders. The tender I bought was a new purchase for a prewar tender 2466w for the old purchase of the prewar 1666e loco, well guess what. The two worked together great with no problems on a lionel 80cw transformer. It payes to get the correct loco and tender that was made for each other. Sorry guys but thanks for the help.

Regardless of if it came with a 1041, a 1033 or larger would be better than a 1041 because of the higher output. The 1041 was suited to set when new, without extra cars, etc. more power being available is a good thing. Find me the post that complains they bought too big a transformer and that was the issue. (assume correct wire is used,etc )

Available power vs used power; just don't come up short. Have extra on hand in case you need it.

Some things bare repeating in a different manner so you can develop a real sense of context IMO.

5v boost on old units is because the early whistle motors ate up a lot of power and that slowed the engine. So a 5v boost got added and kept it steadier; but also usually boosts speed a bit until you stop blowing it. It's really a preference more than a requirement. Some folk hate it enough they would rather it slowed down. In theory you could lessen the transformer boost internally with diodes on that tap too. I just never heard of anyone doing it.(simply splice to that wire.)

This boost or lack of it depends on transformer, new or old both. Most old had a boost, I think one or two did not.

Have you tuned up the whistle motor? It has busings, brushes and armature that need occasional attention same as a loco, just not as often unless you use the heck out of it  

A  tune up will likely lower the voltage it needs to get up to speed to make sound. I.e. clean and lube (and don't skip oiling BOTH bushings even though the impeller side is a pita)

Also in there, is the relay. It is a special relay that ignores ac. It triggers on dc. Specifically an offset.  An ac wave has a +12v and a -12v charge that follows it. If you grab away 2v from either +/- you have 12v &10v; a 2v difference between waves.. or "2v offset". That 2v offset is either + or - in nature that is essentially +2vdc or -2vdc(if both it would remain ac), so 2vdc +or- added to +10v/-10v ac etc etc, hopefully you see the math has come full circle, lol. It being either + or - is dc , + and - both is ac, so it's dc piggy backed on ac (a dc offset) 

 ...... so, if the relay triggers easy on the CW you are fine that is the big hurdle.. some PW relays do not like the diodes to create the offset. They fall a tiny bit short of enough offset. Some new relay boards don't like the softer curve the old whistle disks provide in the offset. (I think I've learned a trick for PW on diodes, but lets wait on that, it does have a slight drawback of a bit too much offset for motors).

. But you also say it works with more voltage applied.  So tune up the whistle and try again. Note if the relay seems happy, and note how the engine reacts, then start the decision on changes like boost or voltage drops on the engine to get a happy balance (the volt drop trick can also be used to increase smoke output fyi      Smoke gets full power from rollers, motor gets less )

3a may be too small for the diodes. Put the engine on the rails with a meter reading amps used. Hold it still ("stall") give it full power then back to zero fairly quickly, letting it slowly turn just enough to see amps raise to a peak, long enough to read the max amps drawn.

 Use diodes larger than that peak. The more oversized, the cooler they will stay. (about 180° is the limit for heat, cooler doesn't always mean cool to the touch, but finger cool is ok too)  I.e. one good peak over 3a could cook the 3a.  Most of my PW peak at at least 3.5a, some at 5.5a, none use over 4.5a continuously, I use 4a and 6a on locos for voltage drops, none have cooked. 

I also used a 3a to drop a voltage that was peaking at 3.8a (i didn't check). The diodes didn't burn, but got hot enough the solder failed and it fell apart repeatedly  before I checked the peak (and did a tune up)

Milage may vary; but 'nuff said on diode size vs peaks?

General purpose rectifying diodes are good enough, you don't need the more expensive ones for this.

The new whistles do not need the 5v boost because they are either speaker sounds, or use a more efficient can  motor. 

 T old whistle motor makes more torque than was actually needed. A juice hog for what it does which is really low torque to move air to a slightly higher pressure, but high rpm to move a big volume/flow.  An engine needs high torque and any high rpm is more a bonus than a need.