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I am quite sure most members have debated this topic a few times, but I am new around here and thus I need too open the topic up again too perhaps express fresh opinions on the topic.

 

My layout will be a modern freight yard layout. Presently, I now have 6 diesel locomotives. Except for the F3 Santa Fe, (which does not have a smoking unit) and the F59 which also, does not have a smoking unit, my other modern diesels do have smoking units. I watch allot of video about trains. In particular modern trains/diesels. Some video clearly show diesels smoking fairly well when under load. Now, many in here have different opinions about whether or not to smoke or not smoke. I completely agree that diesels do not smoke like their steam counter parts. That ought to be obvious. I also agree that some members don't like flooding their basements with this smoke. However, if we are to be truthful about this, then we need to examine the pictures and video clearly showing diesels smoking.

 

Some diesels smoke allot more then others. Obviously, an RS3 will smoke more than say an ES44AC. Yet, even the ES44 does smoke, but it is a light smoke if any. The AC6000 and Dash 9 smoke more than the ES44's. Yet, even they do not put out as much smoke as the older diesels. Like an SD40-2 or F40's.

 

I realize what this debate really revolves around is simply choice. As in whether or not to run your diesels with or without smoke. However, some have clearly stated that diesels do not smoke that much. Which is not entirely correct. I posted a picture here where one can see, even a modern locomotive does smoke and it can clearly be seen in that photograph. So, in reality, aside from the choice part, diesels do smoke to some degree or another and that even in scale, it is appropriate to show this if one wants too on their layout. Personally, I plan on running most of my diesels without smoke most of the time, but occasionally, to perhaps impress friends what have you, I will lash up three diesels and under load, let the smoke come out as it is seen in the picture I posted.

 

Again, this is purely choice, but the debate about whether or not diesels smoke (even modern green burning diesels), is rendered moot. They do smoke and some quite bit.

 

 

Please express your opinions. Tell us what you think/believe.

 

Thanks, Pete

 

 

Laguna2

Laguna2

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Doesn't any internal combustion engine produce some sort of smoke or output?  Even in modern diesels that are diesel/electric there has to be some sort of output, no?  Could the "debate" or conversation just be related to volume of smoke or output?  Maybe running a toy train on low smoke is more realistic.

 

I am no expert on real trains, just asking some basic questions that maybe the experts can help with. 

We're comparing a natural by-product of a real diesel locomotive, to one of a toy (or a replica, for the scale enthusiasts) which is not natural.

 

Seems while many modelers want the the diesel smoke feature, there seem to be just as many threads with complaints about it not working. There was a recent one where the poster called Lionel "junk" because the diesel smoke wasn't working. Marty Fitzhenry, I thought, offered an intelligent, well thought out answer.

 

I've purchased these motor driven smoke units from K-Line, Lionel and MTH for my own custom made projects. I've had problems with every single one. I don't consider the companies are making junk. As Marty said in the other thread, it just seems to be an inherent problem with a very tiny motor placed in an environment that produces a lot of heat. 

 

Given all the problems I have read here about diesel smoke units, and probably the numbers of returns Lionel has received, I highly doubt Mike Reagan wants the service problems to continue. I would think if there was a better, economical way, Lionel might already be utilizing it.

 

As for me, I can just pretend the diesels are emitting smoke.

 

For those who need them to actually put out smoke, I would say, you'd better be prepared (as much as you might not like it) to send the loco in for service, or to do the repairs yourself. Imaginary diesel smoke might not have the same "wow" factor. But it doesn't have the same frustration or repair costs.

Originally Posted by NYCGreg68:

Doesn't any internal combustion engine produce some sort of smoke or output?

 

No. You "modern" automobile doesn't smoke does it?

 

 Even in modern diesels that are diesel/electric there has to be some sort of output, no?

 

Not necessarily, what with all the latest electronic, computer fuel injection systems, it has become much more difficult to see visible exhaust emissions, even at higher altitudes.

 

 Could the "debate" or conversation just be related to volume of smoke or output?  Maybe running a toy train on low smoke is more realistic.

 

I am no expert on real trains, just asking some basic questions that maybe the experts can help with. 

 

Any diesel will smoke in the real world for a number of different reasons. When you see a diesel black smoke that usually means the throttle is getting hammered and the injectors are dumping to much fuel for it to combust properly giving you the black smoke.  Black smoke usually occurs with a train going up a steep grade, or when a trains just trying to get moving with a heavy load. Blue smoke from a diesel indicates that engine lubricating oil is burning. Example: oil entering combustion chamber via warn valve guides, or seals, etc. Last but not least is grey smoke which indicates raw unburnt fuel is passing into the exhaust chamber due to low cylinder compression, bad injector, etc. That's just my 2 cent. Merry Christmas. 

Originally Posted by Jesse ferguson:

Any diesel will smoke in the real world for a number of different reasons. When you see a diesel black smoke that usually means the throttle is getting hammered and the injectors are dumping to much fuel for it to combust properly giving you the black smoke.

 

Sorry but, I disagree. With todays modern computer controlled engine systems, that just doesn't happen anymore, unless there is a mechanical component failure, i.e. a bad injector, bad turbo, etc..

 

 Black smoke usually occurs with a train going up a steep grade, or when a trains just trying to get moving with a heavy load.

 

Nope! With today's modern diesel electric control systems that just doesn't happen anymore.

 

Blue smoke from a diesel indicates that engine lubricating oil is burning. Example: oil entering combustion chamber via warn valve guides, or seals, etc.

 

Do you have a lot of experience working on EMD, GE and/or Alco railroad diesel prime movers?

 

Last but not least is grey smoke which indicates raw unburnt fuel is passing into the exhaust chamber due to low cylinder compression, bad injector, etc.

 

Maybe, but sometimes the exhaust is white or light gray, which tends to indicate a cold engine, i.e. not fully up to operating temperature.

 

That's just my 2 cent. Merry Christmas. 

 

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by Jesse ferguson:

Any diesel will smoke in the real world for a number of different reasons. When you see a diesel black smoke that usually means the throttle is getting hammered and the injectors are dumping to much fuel for it to combust properly giving you the black smoke.

 

Sorry but, I disagree. With todays modern computer controlled engine systems, that just doesn't happen anymore, unless there is a mechanical component failure, i.e. a bad injector, bad turbo, etc..

 

 Black smoke usually occurs with a train going up a steep grade, or when a trains just trying to get moving with a heavy load.

 

Nope! With today's modern diesel electric control systems that just doesn't happen anymore.

 

Blue smoke from a diesel indicates that engine lubricating oil is burning. Example: oil entering combustion chamber via warn valve guides, or seals, etc.

 

Do you have a lot of experience working on EMD, GE and/or Alco railroad diesel prime movers?

 

Last but not least is grey smoke which indicates raw unburnt fuel is passing into the exhaust chamber due to low cylinder compression, bad injector, etc.

 

Maybe, but sometimes the exhaust is white or light gray, which tends to indicate a cold engine, i.e. not fully up to operating temperature.

 

That's just my 2 cent. Merry Christmas.

 

Well im not saying every engine is gonna smoke like a chimney. But i am saying under certain circumstances and situations a diesels gonna smoke. I don't care how new it is. And if someones telling me that you will not see one of these newer engines smoke? That is completely absurd. 

 

 

To me, the question is whether the widely reported operational problems with smoke units, combined with their cost and our ambivalence about them (as reflected in this and many other threads), would leave everyone better off without smoke units on diesels.  I realize that one can turn off the smoke unit in most new diesels, but that leaves many guys paying for something they will never use and that likely will malfunction if used.  

 

I don't know how much smoke units add to the price of a diesel, but if you assume the manufacturers build in anticipated service costs, it likely is more than nominal.  And I cannot think of another feature on engines that has such a dubious cost/benefit ratio. 

 

Chris Dunn

Originally Posted by the train yard:

Some diesels smoke allot more then others. Obviously, an RS3 will smoke more than say an ES44AC. Yet, even the ES44 does smoke, but it is a light smoke if any. The AC6000 and Dash 9 smoke more than the ES44's. Yet, even they do not put out as much smoke as the older diesels. Like an SD40-2 or F40's.

 

Not the case on my layout. My new MTH RK Scale RS-3 puts out very little smoke and my ES44AC's smoke like Big Boy's (no puffing, of course). Maybe they are not checking the new Tiered emission standards closely enough? Oops, no maintenance facilities on the layout yet, maybe that's the problem?

 

I run the smoke units until I hear "Is that train smoke I smell" echoing loudly down the basement stairs. I then reply "No Dear" and immediately turn off all smoke units.

 

Actually the real trains I see around here don't smoke too much.

My MTH SD70 smokes too much!   Even though threre is a pot to turn with a screwdriver, it has liimited effect:   Humongous smoke.   Very strong smoke.  No smoke.

 

I would like a lite smoke that looks more like the heated exhaust that comes from the modern diesel - that would be a strong fan, but very  light output.

 

Just my preferences.   As is, I am running the loco with the "Very strong smoke" mostly, and some with "No Smoke".

Watching a long heavy manifest freight or coal train going up Horseshoe Curve with older narrow cab diesel power will usually yield a great sound (especially hammering EMD's) and a fair amount of smoke.

 

Watching 3 wide cabs burble past like idling cars is boring though usually smoke free and better for the environment.

 

 

Originally Posted by Bob Severin:
Originally Posted by Texas Pete:

What debate?  We can each do as we please.  So what if full scale diesels smoke or don't?

 

Pete

It would be hard to run "full scale" in your basement.  Is anything that is full scale really real?  That question is too hard to fathom today.  

Someone actually had the cab of an FT or F3 or one of those that look similar to those in their basement. Pictures or a video was also posted somewhere, possible here, but I forget where I saw it. Could have also been in a magazine? I believe they had the thing lowered into the basement as the house was being built, if I remember it correctly?

Originally Posted by prrhorseshoecurve:

Alcos and first gen diesels smoke. EMD second generation diesels do not smoke unless they are broken. GE first and Second Generations Smoke Third Generation and current do no unless they have issues which lead to tissues.

 

If you examine the pictures I posted, this would counter your claim as far as modern diesels are concerned. They smoke under load and that does not mean they are broken as some have suggested.

 

Pete

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