Hello all,
Please advise what the letter F on the front of some of the Diesels represent. I have a couple of them with the app on the f on it's front.
Much thanks as always , jerry
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
As you said, the F is on the (F)ront
The letter "F" Designates the Front End of the diesel unit.
F = Front of unit.
Nothing more to say..............................
its the front!
Also, just like SOU and N&W... the F is on the "long" hood, since they had them built that way.
Jerry:
Some RR's would buy the same locomotive but run it either "long hood forward or short hood forward". That was the reason for the 'F' designation. One can end up with the same locomotive from two different RR companies on their layout and have the front on opposite ends. Either way if built right by the model train company forward direction from your transformer or hand held will always line up with the 'F'.
Joe
Model Structures posted:Jerry:
Some RR's would buy the same locomotive but run it either "long hood forward or short hood forward". That was the reason for the 'F' designation. One can end up with the same locomotive from two different RR companies on their layout and have the front on opposite ends. Either way if built right by the model train company forward direction from your transformer or hand held will always line up with the 'F'.
Joe
Very interesting information. Except that "F" is REQUIRED by Federal law!
Jerry A posted:Hello all,
Please advise what the letter F on the front of some of the Diesels represent. I have a couple of them with the app on the f on it's front.
Much thanks as always , jerry
Helps the maintenance crew if something needing repair was at both ends of the locomotive!
As noted above, F = Front. Of course, on many locos this is obvious. But on double cab units (e.g. GG1), or no-cab units (i.e. B units), it is a vital point of reference.
BobbyD posted:Jerry A posted:Hello all,
Please advise what the letter F on the front of some of the Diesels represent. I have a couple of them with the app on the f on it's front.
Much thanks as always , jerry
Helps the maintenance crew if something needing repair was at both ends of the locomotive!
That can be a bit tricky, when dealing with traction motors and associated electrical issues involving the traction motors. No matter WHAT the customer orders, as the "Front" of the unit, EMC/EMD has ALWAYS considered the short hood end as the "Front" especially on the electrical diagrams. Thus, when troubleshooting the "number one traction motor" on a unit that has the long hood designated as "Front", the Electrician had better be absolutely sure of what he is doing! Back in the old days of GP7/GP9/SD7/ SD9 units on railroads with the long hood designated "Front", the Electricians had to be pretty sharp.
F means NOT THE REAR.
Rick
Thank you very much for all your replies. Certainly answers my question.
Jerry
And "B" for butt is the rear. 
New York Central took things one step further. In addition to the F on the front they also designated the front as 1, the rear as 2, the engineer's side as A, and the fireman's side as B.
Stuart
Well, I feel like an "id-jit". I assumed those "Fs" were plate letters like all those "Cs" on so many of boxcars -- real and modeled. Now it'll be to indicate my new grade for RR savvy or lack thereof 
. Except, of course, with all the great information and helpful people on this forum, it can only improve with time.
Tomlinson Run (Forward most of the time) Railroad
TomlinsonRunRR posted:Well, I feel like an "id-jit". I assumed those "Fs" were plate letters like all those "Cs" on so many of boxcars -- real and modeled. Now it'll be to indicate my new grade for RR savvy or lack thereof
Tomlinson Run (Forward most of the time) Railroad
Don't feel bad. I've met some folks that thought that letter "F" meant "Foto", is in "Take Fotos of that end.".
Don't feel bad not knowing what the F meant. While I knew it meant front I didn't know it was actually used on locomotives.
I thought it was just something nice the model train manufacturers put on locomotives like the GG1 to help modelers know the front from the rear.
Duh ! 
P.S. Please don't hurt yourselves falling off your chairs laughing at my near total ignorance of railroads, both 1:1 and 1:48.
Ed
Hot Water posted:TomlinsonRunRR posted:Well, I feel like an "id-jit". I assumed those "Fs" were plate letters like all those "Cs" on so many of boxcars -- real and modeled =snip=
Don't feel bad. I've met some folks that thought that letter "F" meant "Foto", is in "Take Fotos of that end.".
LOL! I'm headed for Essex Junction soon and will keep an eye out for any "fotographers". (Clearly a European spelling. :-)
Still chuckling ...
TRRR
The F and its different locations is why you'll rarely hear "forward or "backward" on the radio when a crew is switching. Most conductors will say "pull" or "shove" when handling cars or give a direction (north, south, east or west in accordance with the timetable) when running engine(s) lite.
Tell an engineer on an old Southern unit, up to some of the NS SD50/60's, to go forward and they will go the direction of the long hood. It could lead to a very bad day if your engineer goes the wrong way.
Thanks guys, great replies! !!!
Jerry
Fuel oil and water on an electric loco as what stumped me years ago.
Adriatic posted:Fuel oil and water on an electric loco as what stumped me years ago.
Well OK but, what does THAT have to do with the letter "F" applied to the front end?
Just a comparable bewilderment.
All are markings on a GG-1 not fully understood by one of us the past....and I'm easily amused 
....and couldn't come up with a good follow up on foto.
But I keep thinking maybe now there's a Hot Water joke in there somewhere too.
JoelMarksbury posted:Most conductors will say "pull" or "shove" when handling cars or give a direction (north, south, east or west in accordance with the timetable) when running engine(s) lite.
Tell an engineer on an old Southern unit, up to some of the NS SD50/60's, to go forward and they will go the direction of the long hood. It could lead to a very bad day if your engineer goes the wrong way.
Well, young fellows, when I was a boy Engineer in another era, hand signals were the preferred method of communicating when switching, and were different in Eastern and Western railroading. Eastern roads gave specific hand signals for forward and reverse, while Western Trainmen signaled Move Toward Me or Move Away From Me. So, in the East, it mattered which way the engine was turned and therefore where the designated front was. In the West, it didn't. Until radios came into common use.
There were few packet radios in use, but, when used, we said "A-head" or Back 'em up" on the Los Angeles Division of the Santa Fe. For a normal stop, the radio phrase was "That'll do." "Stop" meant really stop right now because something is derailed or about to hit something else. Other crew districts used phrases that were commonly understood there.
Nowadays, BNSF requires specific language across the whole railroad . . . Ahead (followed by car lengths), Back (also followed by car lengths, Easy, Closing Up, and Stop. And almost nobody uses hand signals any more.
From 49CFR229:
"229.11 Locomotive Identification
(a) The letter ‘‘F’’ shall be legibly shown on each side of every locomotive near the end which for identification purposes will be known as the front end."
There are other designations for the ends of equipment. The A and B ends refer to air brakes. The B end is usually the end of the car which the brake cylinder points toward. Since on most cars there is a rod that uses a short chain to pull the push rod out of the hollow rod, and that rod is attached to the hand brake, the hand brake is usually found on the B end. The A end is the end opposite the B end. These is a whole list of ways to handle special situations. If none of these apply, the Chief Mechanical Officer is to designate the B end.
On electric cars there is the #1 end and the #2 end. There are standard ways that the motor leads are to come out of the traction motor case. If this standard is followed and the leads are connected up per the standard, the traction motor will always turn a predictable direction. When the master controller is installed in a car and it has been properly wired, then when the handle is pushed forward, the car will go forwarded. This is true no matter which way the master controller is facing. When a master controller is installed in the rear of a double ended car, the F and R wires have to be reversed to get the car to go backwards when the reverser handle is pushed forward with respect to the controller. The end of the car which does not have the F and R wires reversed to the master controller is the #1 end. The end of the car where the F and R wires are reversed is the #2 end.
The F end, the A and B ends and the #1 and #2 ends are all designated without any respect to each other.
Steam Locomotives which are rebuilt to current standards also Sport the F on the Front end. Just to confuse the cab forward people.
swav posted:Steam Locomotives which are rebuilt to current standards also Sport the F on the Front end. Just to confuse the cab forward people.
Where did you hear/read that? I am not aware of a single steam locomotive that is operational in the U.S., either standard gauge or narrow gauge, that has an "F" on the front end.
how long will this discussion about F means front go on ? how about which end is the B end and which end is the A end of a freight car.... yikes
john f penca jr posted:how long will this discussion about F means front go on ? how about which end is the B end and which end is the A end of a freight car.... yikes
The "B" end is the one with the handbrake.
Cabooses often have handbrakes on both ends, so which one is the B end?
Look at the brake cylinder. The end to which the piston points is the B end.
john f penca jr posted:how long will this discussion about F means front go on ?
I would guess as long as folks keep asking questions, or making incorrect statements.
how about which end is the B end and which end is the A end of a freight car.... yikes
john f penca jr posted:how long will this discussion about F means front go on ? how about which end is the B end and which end is the A end of a freight car.... yikes
When we get to the BOTTOM* of the list of acronymic and mysterious nomenclature relevant to trains?
*U for undersiide? T for top? R for roof? 
It could be worse. At least there are no icons involved.....yet
JoelMarksbury posted:Tell an engineer on an old Southern unit, up to some of the NS SD50/60's, to go forward and they will go the direction of the long hood. It could lead to a very bad day if your engineer goes the wrong way.
Gee whiz! Where you guys come up with these crazy assumptions is beyond me!
"Number 90, I've got the switch lined, you can go ahead and backup now"
;-)
I always liked it when some newbie said that to me.
And yes I was one who had to make the change from the Penn Central always using forward or reverse whether daytime hand signals, nighttime lantern signals, or radio.... to the Come Towards me, Go Away from me DAYtime hand signals when I moved west to BN. But the westerners still used the forward/reverse lantern signals at night. Thus you had separate daytime vs nighttime hand signals which I always thot was strange.
Go ahead and back up... Used that one myself as a joke. The engineer knew exactly what was going on.
Anyway when switching ,we went with the way the engine was facing... on a GP 9 the short hood was reverse and the long hood forward. CN ran their first generation freight engines long hood forward.RS-11 GP/9s RS/3s etc.
If operating as a train , short hood on the front, this would also be the forward movement.
Lets say we operating as a train with the short hood forward... along the line we have to make a lift or set off
. After we pull the pin whether on the engine or cars we are no longer a train and then go by the short or long hood designation.
confusing ... not really.
ok...when a new guy showed up in the pre radio hand signals days they all thought the short hood of a 7,9,or 18 was the front and we stressed to look for the F on any unit which designated front. and if all else failed ask the ENGINEER ! never a problem. In the modern day i heard Go ahead and back up ..too many times...that always brought on a immediate work stoppage and a quick conference with the offender conrail john
It may not be confusing normally, but does seem to leave opportunity for mistakes with new folks or a bad day.
Changing signals just slighty per time of day for a better visual makes sense. Id hope they are at least similar.
I think the "towards", or "away", used for verbal cues sounds the safest. They arent used in offhand speech often. Spoken alone or with adjetives concerning speed/distance, along with stop, and set brake, is nearly all id think youd need. F seems like it would be for the mechanics or engineer to worry about that way.
We used hand signals only for parking autos(learned ours backing trucks/trailers at carnivals) because speech failed too often. It worked, we had no employee accidents after it; 7-10 years anyhow. 300 cars was a slow day.
Im surprised the RR signals have still never been standardized nationally to be honest.
swav posted:Steam Locomotives which are rebuilt to current standards also Sport the F on the Front end. Just to confuse the cab forward people.
Total nonsense...
there were never any exceptions...forward was forward reverse was reverse..24 hrs a day 7 days a week. if the engine was in reverse on the point then you gave a back up . signals were never amended because of day or night thats how it worked PC, CR, and csx
john f penca jr posted:
If the engine was in reverse on the point then you gave a back up .
Sorry, I didnt get this.....If the engine was backwards on the head end you gave a back up signal to move the train forward ? Or backup refered to the train?
