The Forgotten Erie?

I think underappreciated might be a better term than forgotten.  Plus when it comes to color in the diesel era, the Erie is competing against the NYC, PRR, DL&W and LV,  and further west the Nickle Plate, at least one of which was operating nearby.

I confess to not knowing much about the Erie, but my first train--a Marx--has a blue Erie log-dump car, and so I have a soft spot for the road.

Living most of my life in western New York I don’t recall ever seeing an Erie engine even though they had a strong presence in the area. They had already lost their individual identity by the time I became independently mobile. Their remnants still remain though and much of their right of way is still in use. Many bridges in the Rochester, NY area are now pedestrian paths and my parking lot at work was located less than 100’ from their line into the the city of Rochester, just feet from the Lehigh Valley also long gone.

Pete

Here are some Erie engines on loan to the Reading.

The Erie in the midwest was a pretty good road to visit back in the day.  I grew up in Youngstown, OH and "old" Erie  had the most prominent presence in town.  There was a big department store named McKelveys's literally next to the passenger station, a great place to watch the trains and a little luncheon on the other corner, where you could eat and mingle with the crews.  They were a pretty friendly lot by and by.

My father's company made steel pipe and shipped Erie quite a bit so he was always showered with calendars, ashtrays, and assorted Erie marketing products that he would bring home and share with us.  My mother was from Cleveland and rode the Erie every week for over a year to see my father until they were married and she moved to Youngstown.   

I live in Indiana now and sadly, Conrail dumped all of the old Erie trackage on day one even though it was in better shape than most of the Penn Central routes in the area.  Some short lines cropped up to serve the farmers and manufacturers in the area but they also folded up like a cheap suit during the great recession of the mid '70s. Wonderful little towns like Markle and Kingsland lost their connection to the outside world but progress is progress.

While most consider the Erie to be an "also ran", I say give it a go if you are looking for a railroad to model.

I have terrific memories of Erie and run several models of it on my pike (F3, FA, GP and RS3). The EL has a very good historical society as well should anyone out there be interested in finding out more...

The Erie has been done on most third Rail diesel offerings of the last 8 years when prototypical.  E8s, FTs, F7s, F3s, Alco PAs off the top of my head.  I always found the scheme to be attractive in both the TT green as well as the black and yellow.  GGD has offered heavyweight cars in Erie and while they are fantasy for the most part, they are true 80' scale cars.  There are some wonderful color photos of the Erie in Don Ball's "America's Railroads". 

Understandable that the EL merger in 1960 as one of the earlier large mergers on the second half of the 20th century could contribute to the Erie forgotten by many, but it is still a great road to model.  Just unfortunately a little too unique in some aspects for a mass producer of O scale.  Those Stillwell cars are great, but hard to sell a thousand units of them.  I always like their steam locomotives as well.

The Southern Tier is an ex Erie route used by Norfolk Southern and the Starrucca Viaduct is still in use today--Pretty impressive considering it was built in 1848.  As all of us are aware by now, Norfolk Southern has a locomotive painted in Erie colors. . And I recall seeing a video of Rich Melvin describing a run he made with 765 on NS ex Erie trackage some years back.  Nice to see some of the Erie is still around in 2020.

@Cadillac Mike posted:

The Erie in the midwest was a pretty good road to visit back in the day.  I grew up in Youngstown, OH and "old" Erie  had the most prominent presence in town.  There was a big department store named McKelveys's literally next to the passenger station, a great place to watch the trains and a little luncheon on the other corner, where you could eat and mingle with the crews.  They were a pretty friendly lot by and by.

I was born in Youngstown and live in the area now. I don't know what the name was for the station but it's referred to as Erie Terminal now. It's a building with apartments up top. The bottom floor is a mix of places. There's a bar, a cookie shop, and a currently vacant spot (former restaurant owner decided to close to pursue other ventures). They left a lot of the interior as is on the bottom floor with terrazzo floors and a lot of wood features, high ceilings, etc. It's an awesome building! My mind was blow when I found out the tracks came right into downtown. My old neighbor left for the army from Erie Terminal during Vietnam. It's a bummer how there's no passenger rail service in Youngstown anymore.

I think Sam makes a good point though, the Erie is on tons of maps/atlases that I've looked at from the last century or so. They had lines all over the place here yet I feel like I only hear Pennsylvania, Santa Fe, UP, etc. I don't have an preference for a particular line but sitting here reading this made me realize that I don't hear much about the Erie despite how much it hauled in my area. I can rattle off tidbits about those railroads I named but I don't know much about Erie.

Erie is a wonderful RR. My favorite. Modeling the Erie is a huge challenge in most scales if you are serious about modeling the Erie. Same for many smaller RRs. I grew up in Warren, OH and the Erie ran right through town. I could go on and on, but the Erie is very interesting and worth researching if you haven't.

@BessemerSam posted:

...The route. Erie went from New York to Chicago, and some say, got lost along the way.  Erie Power describes it as the longest, but least cluttered route...

That least cluttered route, along with rampant nepotism, is why the Erie is gone.

The "...least cluttered..." route meant the Erie bypassed cities where much of the business was. The Erie had no presence in Pittsburgh, for example. Lots of steel business was there. Many other cities where good rail business originated were bypassed by the Erie.

There were exceptions of course, and Youngstown, Ohio, as has been mentioned above, was one of them. But even in the Youngstown area, the Erie built the "Cortland Cutoff" which ran between Greenville and Leavittsburg. This allowed them to bypass Youngstown when they chose to do so.

The Erie was also noted for multiple levels of nepotism. This inevitably led to sub-par performance by many of the employees because Dad was not going to fire his son, Uncle Charlie was not going to fire his nephew, etc.

Honestly the DL&W is just as forgotten as the Erie.  Can't tell you how many times I hear folks refer to a DL&W locomotive (whether a model or in a photo) as Erie Lackawanna.   It drives me nuts actually. Personally, I like both the DL&W and the Erie, but not the Erie Lackawanna.

A coworker of mine enjoys finding items relating to the Erie - looks for things on auction sites, or in antique or memorabilia stores - a grandfather of his was a fireman (and, if I recall correctly, later an engineer) on the Erie. He shows up in this listing:

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/...enydiv1932roster.pdf

Oh, and a link to some pix from the Barringer railroad library collection, on Flickr.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...ms/72157640479663145

David

@Brian DeFazio posted:

Honestly the DL&W is just as forgotten as the Erie.  Can't tell you how many times I hear folks refer to a DL&W locomotive (whether a model or in a photo) as Erie Lackawanna.   It drives me nuts actually. Personally, I like both the DL&W and the Erie, but not the Erie Lackawanna.

I'm with you on THAT!!!!  I first grew up on the Central RR of New Jersey, in Cranford, NJ (1942 thru 1955). We then moved to Chatham, NJ on the DL&W M&E electrified line. Through Junior High and Senior High, I railfaned the DL&W, Erie, PRR, L&HR, L&NE, and LV. After the Erie closed their passenger terminal in Jersey City, they moved into the DL&W Hoboken Terminal, so we got a chance to see lots more Erie units.

Those of us "Lackawanna Fans", were pretty disappointed over the Erie - Lackawanna merger, and to this day I'm not a fan of the E-L.

After DEATH day in October 1960 to us DL&W fans, I have no love for Erie or EL. The Erie was a poorly mismanaged railroad with greedy owners and employees who chose their own greed. The only thing I liked about the Erie was the black paint with yellow stripping, it was a very eye appealing paint scheme. There is more Erie out there to buy than Lackawanna any day of the week.

Long live Miss Phoebe Snow...

There’s a little bit of the Erie still left over the Lackwaxen River.

My my look at all these replies.  Thank you to all that have replied so far, I was certainly not expecting such a response. 

@BessemerSam posted:

... I was certainly not expecting such a response.

I love history and this history happens to run through my backyard, which is my favorite history haha

I've been fond of he Erie since the early 1950's, from seeing photos of its handsome steam and diesel locomotives in Railroad Magazine and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers Journal, a  monthly magazine passed to me every month by Uncle Roland, a UP Engineer.

It sure did disappear in western Indiana and then reappear in eastern Ohio.  There are very few photos of the west end of the Erie, except in the Chicago area.

I know there doesn't appear to be a lot of love for the EL here, but I always enjoyed seeing the NJDOT / EL U34CH and Pullman Standard Comet I sets as a child.  They appeared so much newer than anything in commuter service in the rest of NJ even thought the CNJ GP40Ps were only a year younger.  Maybe being young it was just because they were shiny.  I did find the dark blue, red pinstripes, and silver paint attractive though.

Too bad stack trains became common after the start of CR.  To me, the line would have been perfect for stacks.  More of a straight shot to from Chicago to East Coast.  A better route than the old PRR through the eastern mountains.

Dominic,

Good point and agreed.

Here's an Erie caboose lamp.

Don't know much about the corporate "Erie"... but I sure think their black and yellow scheme on their diesels is one of the CLASSIEST black/yellow schemes EVER devised.

Love the little Lionel Erie FA, too.

Andre

The Erie (and later, the Erie Lackawanna) didn't survive because it was a badly managed railroad that didn't have enough business to compete with the NYC, PRR, B&O, C&O, etc..

And because its main line route bypassed many important rail business centers in its territory, they couldn't get enough new business to compete.

Hi all, I'd like to clear up a couple things concerning this thread:

   The original gauge of the Erie was six feet.

   The Cortland Bypass was not built by the Erie. It was a part of the Atlantic & Great Western Railway. It was the original main line  of the A&GW, with a destination of Dayton, Ohio and on to a connection with the Ohio & Mississippi RR to Saint Louis, making a six-foot gauge line from Salamanca, New York to Saint Louis. The line thru Youngstown was built later on. The Cortland line served the Erie very well to bypass the congestion of the Youngstown area for high-priority traffic. Yes, the Youngstown line made more money, but the two routes worked well together. It was rather ironic that the portion of the A&GW main line from Marion, Ohio to Dayton, Ohio became a branch line in later years. Like the Erie's original termini of Piermont, N.Y. and Dunkirk,N.Y., the original route of the A&GW was modified to make more sense in terms of future goals, i.e. Chicago. The Erie would have been more viable by heading straight west  to Chicago from western New York, but would have faced stiff competition from the NYC and NKP. It is unfair to judge a railroad's original goals versus the needs of later transportation realities. Yet it is fair to say that this route west of Salamanca was not the most sensible that could have been built.

My first railroad excursion was from Franklin, Pa. to Oil City, Pa. in 1964! How's that for obscure? It was probably the last passenger train between those points and was part of Franklin's Frontier Festival. Being only 11 at the time the memories of it are hazy.

My first railroad employment was with the Erie Lackawanna on the track in Greenville, Pa. from the former passenger station, across the tracks from today's Greenville Railroad Museum. I later had a short stint on the Bessemer & Lake Erie before returning to the EL in the Conrail years. I always thought Conrail's treatment of the EL was a crime but it also made some sense in terms of the redundancy of the Northeast railroad scene.

Working on the "Erie side" was good employment in my opinion. We knew things were tough but managed to "get 'er done."

In later years I also got into some work on the New York & Lake Erie, another ex-Erie line.

Well this is starting ramble a bit so I'll close for now.    Don Francis

Hi Trinity, No problem, and no need to apologize, you have a happy New Year too!  Don Francis

I grew up in Hackensack, NJ and the Erie had a north/south single-track branch that ran right through the center of town that was both a passenger and a freight line. Passenger service was between Spring Valley, NY and Hoboken, NJ, where you could change to go to New York City by the PATH subway line under the Hudson River to either the World Trade Center or Penn Station. Passenger service ran only on weekdays, as I recall, and strictly south in the morning and north in the evening.

There were three stations in Hackensack. From north to south, they were Fairmount Avenue, Anderson Street and Essex Street. Fairmount Avenue was the street I grew up on. We had many railroads in New Jersey when I was growing up in the 50s and early 60s - including the Erie, Lackawanna, New York Central, Pennsylvania, Jersey Central, Susquehanna (which ran east/west through Hackensack) and Lehigh Valley.

I have fond memories of all of those railroads. I have no fond memories of any of the mergers. Consistent with the era of my layout, I own no merger railroad engines or cars except for one Lionel PS-1 box car and a Weaver TOFC, both Erie/Lackawanna, and I only bought them because I collect both of those types of cars. 

Pat

@Rich Melvin posted:

That least cluttered route, along with rampant nepotism, is why the Erie is gone.

The "...least cluttered..." route meant the Erie bypassed cities where much of the business was. The Erie had no presence in Pittsburgh, for example. Lots of steel business was there. Many other cities where good rail business originated were bypassed by the Erie.

There were exceptions of course, and Youngstown, Ohio, as has been mentioned above, was one of them. But even in the Youngstown area, the Erie built the "Cortland Cutoff" which ran between Greenville and Leavittsburg. This allowed them to bypass Youngstown when they chose to do so.

The Erie was also noted for multiple levels of nepotism. This inevitably led to sub-par performance by many of the employees because Dad was not going to fire his son, Uncle Charlie was not going to fire his nephew, etc.

The reason they used the cutoff is because they had so MUCH business Rich! That area of the Erie was one of the busiest and most densely trafficked of the whole system. Several books talk about it. Timko's Mahoning division, Erie Power, and other EL books come to mind. Erie passed under center street bridge in Youngstown which at one time had more freight cars pass under it than any other place in the country. Makes sense to me that you would want an option to bypass that area. They had mutual trackage rights with many other RRs. For instance the CLE eastbound passenger trains would continue on to Pittsburgh via P&LE. Erie was not hurting for traffic. The reason for the cutoff was to separate the through freight and local/passenger traffic. At one time Warren, OH  had a huge number of passenger trains stopping there each day at the peak of rail travel. Through freights could bypass the entire Mahoning valley and make time.

Several posts here had to be deleted because of copyright infringement.  YOU CAN NOT post pictures from a book you have purchased without permission to do so (unless you are the author).  Also, you can't post pictures from the internet without permission unless you are the owner but you can post a link to the site where the picture is located.  We keep telling this over and over and it is in our TOS....PLEASE don't put yourself and OGR in a legal situation with the owners!

Sorry, I for got about that. Anyone interested in the Kent Ohio ERIE RR book can find it on the internet or on the link below.

RAILROAD TOWN: Kent and the Erie Railroad: Dzeda, Bruce: 9781607251774: Amazon.com: Books

@jonnyspeed posted:

The reason they used the cutoff is because they had so MUCH business Rich! That area of the Erie was one of the busiest and most densely trafficked of the whole system. Several books talk about it. Timko's Mahoning division, Erie Power, and other EL books come to mind. Erie passed under center street bridge in Youngstown...

I agree...the Mahoning Division of the Erie was a tremendous profit center for the Erie. However, the profits generated there could not make up for the lack of business everywhere else on the railroad.

As for their presence at Center Street, it was not a main line route. All they did there was interchange some traffic with the other roads in the area, such as P&LE, NYC, PRR, B&O, etc. The B&O, PRR, and NYC all had main line routes under that bridge. The Erie did not.

@SIRT posted:

Sorry, I for got about that. Anyone interested in the Kent Ohio ERIE RR book can find it on the internet or on the link below.

RAILROAD TOWN: Kent and the Erie Railroad: Dzeda, Bruce: 9781607251774: Amazon.com: Books

Thanks, I was looking for it since your last post on it. Ordered.

Regarding the Mahoning Division;

Conrail moved through traffic off the former EL pretty quickly, leaving the online customers as the reason for retaining EL trackage around Youngstown.

In September 1977, the Lykes Corporation, owners of the Youngstown Sheet and Tube Company, announced that the Campbell works would close. Their Brier Hill works followed in 1979, US Steel's Ohio and McDonald Works in 1980, Republic Steel's Youngstown (Haselton) Works in 1981.  You also saw places such as Westinghouse in Sharon and Chicago Bridge and Iron in Greenville close.  All of these were customers of the Erie Lackawanna.

In the boxcar era, bypassing Cities is not a good idea.  In the C/TOFC era, even before stacks, may be a very good idea.  You can rubber tire that stuff in.  At least along the NY/PA state line, it seems a straighter shot than the NYC or PRR former routes.  The Central goes north before going west.  PRR goes south-southwest before turning west.

In Chicago, which yard did the Erie use?