The Lionel 4-12-2

>>>How is this thing, from a scale fidelity standpoint?  Has Lionel done the U- shape boiler on most of its high- end scale stuff, or is this one an anomaly?<<

I believe one of the train magizines did a short review of it a few months back..

I think its a great looking engine that could have had more add on detail but its awesome whistle and three cylinder sound more then makes up for it.   

Only downside I suppose, the heavy hauler requires wide curves and it does not do well over Lionel tubular switches.. Here's a shot of the #9000 at rest.

Joe

Impressive loco but one helluva long rigid wheelbase !!!

I have not seen the Lionel version "up-close" nor to actually "hold one". However, I do know that the center cylinder valve motion does NOT move/work on the Lionel version, as does the Sunset/3rd Rail and MTH versions.

Plus all that "white tires & walkway edges" treatment isn't prototypically correct.

>>I have not seen the Lionel version "up-close" nor to actually "hold one". However, I do know that the center cylinder valve motion does NOT move/work on the Lionel version, as does the Sunset/3rd Rail and MTH versions.<<

Well, since Bob2 posted his questions, above, on this 3RS Forum, I/we are much more interested in prototype details. Personally, I could give a crap about "whistle steam effects" and incorrect, "pretty looking" paint schemes!

Sure, the " Lionel Legacy sounds" are cool, but are they correct for THAT UP 9000 class 4-12-2? I know for a fact that the "alternate" sound set for the MTH model is indeed the correct UP Star Brass whistle sound, as well as the "out of step" three cylinder exhaust.

Gents,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I looked at the MTH model of this 3 cylinder engine at the Fall York TCA meet and it appeared to me that the driver crankpins were set on 90 degrees.  As far as I know about such matters, they should be set at 120 degrees.  How about the Lionel model?  I know the Sunset 3rd rail model is correct in this regard as I had to replace a gear on the main driver for one of these engines and those cranks were on 120 degrees.

I was asked to 2 rail a couple of the Lionel models and when I brought this up I never heard back from the requester.

Interested in any reply.

Thanks,

Joe Foehrkolb

Joe,

I finally came up with an MTH #9000 model, and should have it next week. Although I'm still looking for one of the later Sunset/3rd Rail models with TMCC, I would be interested in your thoughts on the MTH version with the crankpins set at 90 degrees and how that could be corrected, without upsetting the exhaust beats.

Heres Eric Siegels Review of the legacy version.

The 90 degree setting is probably best for smooth model operation.  Even then, crankpins must be dead- on when dealing with six axles.  You cannot see both sides at once, so the only way to find out the "quarter" angle is to measure it.

If I were two-railing this thing, I would keep the 90 degree quarter.  The boiler valances kind of kill it for me - the Lionel FEF has a round boiler belly, and is an attractive model.

Bob Turner, 

Since the position of the cranks have nothing to do with the operation of a gear driven model other than that they have to be in tram on both sides of the engine to eliminate binding, I don't think 90 degrees or 120 degrees makes any difference.  You would have to prove otherwize to me.  I agree that you cannot see it but we seem to worry about every other detail on these models and if I am correct about the 90 crankpin spacing, this is a major error.  The real locomotive would not operate.

Hot Water,

I do not believe the MTH sound effects have anything to do with the position of the crankpins on the drivers.  They are set normally set by a timing belt on the motor in and the programming of the electronics.  So,  correcting the crankpins would have no effect on the operation of the sound unit.  If you are really worried about this I guess you could attempt to adjust the gear mesh so that the exhaust sound was exactly timed to the motion of the piston rods.  It would not bother me because sound travelling at roughly 1100 fps would effect the timing of the sound you would hear depending on how far you were standing from the locomotive when viewing it.

Thanks for the video.  Never got through it all. I don't want one.

Thanks,

Joe Foehrkolb

I don't really have any math for you except to say that a zero difference could allow drivers to get out of alignment, causing a lock- up, as the rods went through front or back dead center.  The 90-degree quarter totally stops this within the accuracy and tightness of the rods on the opposite side.  Without getting into a trigonometry discussion, i am going to assert that as you move closer to zero quarter, lockup becomes more of a problem.

I have a 4-12-2, and believe me, the rods and quarter were a lot harder to set up than on a Pacific.  I used 90 degrees to give myself a chance at success.  It runs!

Bob,

I can buy what you are saying if the wheels are actually being driven my the main rods but of course in a model they are not and Sunset's model of this engine with 120 degree crank settings seems to run just fine and if it were my model I would prefer to have the cranks set in the proper position at 120 degrees.  Whatever floats your boat!

Joe

I dont have, or have I seen the Lionel version,so I cant help Bob with his question on the boiler,(If you watch the review you can see the K-line style boiler skirt Bob mentions) but Im interested in the 120-degree setting on the Sunset model as I have one and plan to two rail her. Joe how would you set this 120-degree's       (cTr...Choose theRight)

Stephen,

As you probably already know, I quarter my drivers with a surface gauge while the wheelsets are held in a "V" block.  The one time I had to reset a pair of drivers to 120 degrees after replacing a stripped axle gear, I used a draftman's 30/60/90 clear plastic triangle to set the 120 degree angle while the wheelset was sitting in the V block with the other crankpin set at vertical.  The owner of this wheelset only sent me the one driver set to repair and I never heard back from him after I returned it so I am assuming it was in tram with the other drivers.  I can tell you I was not expecting to receive this odd set of drivers when I was asked to replace the gear.  If I had been sent the entire model, I could have set the surface gauge to line up with the 120 degree crankpin center of another driver pair and reset the repaired driver to match.

Joe Foehrkolb

I wondered about the white wheels.  I've seen builder photos that seem to have a white running board stripe and white wheels but I wondered how long those would last in actual service.   Jerry at Hobbyland still has a 9000 I purchased the 9004 since the Lionel version appears to be modeled after late life modifications.

Here are a couple of clear left and right photos of the earlier prototype by way of the Denver Public Library digitial photos. Courtesey of the Otto Perry Railroad Photograph Collection.

In case anyone wants it...Here is the link I use to get right to the Denver Library photo search page.  It's a huge resource I discovered not too long ago.  Union Pacific fans might find it useful or just enjoy looking through all the photos they have:

http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/

I use it frequently to research the UP locomotives I choose to purchase. I think it's pretty cool. In the "quick photo search" field enter whatever UP engine Type I'm looking for (Union Pacific 4-6-2, Union Pacific 4-8-2 etc...), and I'll find tons of photos by wheel arrangement and decade of service.  For these examples I just typed:   Union pacific 4-12-2

Each photo has a description of Date, speed, location and photographer if available.  In the informatio section of each photo they ususally have other links including one for Otto Perry crediting him for the photos.

>>>In case anyone wants it...Here is the link I use to get right to the Denver Library photo search page. <<

Yes - it would take a concerted effort to find the exact crankpin angle, but only a glance to see that keyhole boiler cross-section.

My analysis has nothing to do with main rods; only side rods.  I set my crank pins to within a thousandth of an inch on a special jig, and then fit my side rods by first locking one side at top or bottom dead- center, then installing the other side.  That would be difficult with anything other than 90 degree quartering.

Our models are indeed driven by side rods.  That is where one can get lock- up.  The difference between me and Joe is that I have to drill my side rods from raw castings.

By the way, we did some 4-12-2 rods in nickel- silver.

One interesting thing I did notice from the above video, the Lionel model has the cab signal electronics equipment box mounted under the forward portion of the Engineer's side walkway. A nice touch, but then viewing the Engineer's side of the tender revealed the big  double door box, which was a later up-grade, causing the elimination of the cab signal control box under the right front walkway. The model shouldn't have both.

Thanks     Joe and Bob for your experience and thoughts on the setting of the drivers of the Union Pacific Type wheel arrangement, should be fun! great loco and worth the effort.    (cTr....Choose the Right)

Also discovered that the UP 9000 class did NOT have visored headlights!

I don't think any of the Nines were painted greyhound!

No they were NOT!

Lionel's greyhound 4-12-2 was strictly a fantasy scheme... I just wish they would have used a different number other than 9000, since they used 9000 on the black old livery paint scheme, which is super sharp!

David

Some time back I saw a photo of #9000 with whitewalls, so it must be prototypical... That aside, how could anyone not admire this beast with its massive contoured boiler and decorated out to the nines???

Joe

Not really. The 9000 is on display in California and is "all dolled up", typical of a "park engine"! 

Here's the photo..Looks like its missing a few pipes and stuff.  

Joe 

JC,

That looks suspiciously like an as-built photo - gray paint so details could be easily seen.  

ChipR 

Correct! That is the "builder's photo" taken at American Locomotive Co., and note that all the rods, cross head, and cross head guides are also "white". They NEVER ran in service that way! 

Yeah, but it looks great!

Well, that's just YOUR opinion,,,,,right?

I looked through many photos and couldn't find an in-service one with white tires.  On the other hand it wouldn't stop me from buying one if it had them. 

Absolutely! I have removed white "running board" edges and white tires before. No big deal to just paint them grimy black.

All I have to do is leave "opinion" out of one post . . .

I bet if the UP had decided to line these drivers it would have been silver.  The Lionel model has a thin rim of chrome showing.

I have heard that there is great anguish about the greyhound version.  Whar a neat way to get one in e original paint  - a coat of Scalecot over the whole thing, then numbers and shield on the tender.

If anybody does that, I have had the tiny cab legend done in silver.  I use the Microscale shield, and silver tender numbers from leftovers.

I can live with the speaker holes in the tender bottom, but if I two- rail this beauty, those boiler skirts will get circumcised.

opinion!

>>I have heard that there is great anguish about the greyhound version.  Whar a neat way to get one in e original paint  - a coat of Scalecot over the whole thing, then numbers and shield on the tender.<<<<

Lionel has a undecorated pilot model (raw metal) #6-11341 of the #9000 in stock.

Could easily be decorated as it should.

Joe

Received my MTH #9000 from the UPS driver, yesterday afternoon. Now that I've had a chance to go over it completely, while installing a #740 Kadee coupler, I notice the following:

1) All the piping on the boiler & smokebox are separately applied, i.e. NOT just "cast in".

2) No visor on the headlight, which is correct for UP.

3) Griesly valve gear works, and the number to axle is cranked with the appropriate main rod going to the center/3rd cylinder, all of which works.

4) Cab signal electronics box properly located under the right front edge of the walkway. No large cab signal box on the right side of the tender.

She will go to my buddy for weathering this weekend.

Come on, Hot - is the MTH boiler unwrapped?  How about the sand dome - is it that seldom-seen squared-off version, or the original dome- shaped deal?  Inquiring minds want to know.

Guess I'm not all that sure what you mean by an "unwrapped" boiler, but the bottom is slotted for the drive shaft assembly. Once it progresses forward toward the smokebox area the underside of the boiler is then round and closed.

As far as the sand dome, it does look to be "squared off" a bit, and much larger than the as-delivered (1927) 9000 class. The model's sand dome appears to look more like the "bigger" sand dome carried by the 9000s from the late 1940s thru the 1950s. Compared to the various photos from the James L. Ehernberger collection of all the 9000 class locomotives in three different booklets from the Union Pacific Historical Society, this model looks pretty darn good.

However, I am still looking for a Sunset/3rd Rail version of road numbers 9020 or 9030  with factory equipped TMCC.

Stuart's rule of builder's photos:  Never assume that's how the locos looked in service.  Especially since the builder's photos always used a matte finish on the paint.

Stuart