The Lionel 4-12-2

Thanks Hot.  That sounds like a good boiler shape.  Lionel opened the boiler in the belly and folded back the sheet metal until it was vertical.  Think of a keyhole cross- section.  This all started with K- Line scale, where they unwrapped the bottom half of the boiler, forming a "U" shape.  Round on top of running boards, straight down like a woman's skirt below.

 

You have to have a slot, in most models.  I do not find the slot objectionable, although I am able to make my own boilers completely round by keeping motors and gears very low.

OK Bob, now I understand what you are referring to. I have never seen one of those Lionel 9000 class models "up-close" to handle, and really don't plan on it, since I prefer the working Griesly (sp) valve gear.

 

Now, what I would really like to have is a model of one of the "bald face" 9000s which were rebuilt and modified with two Walscharts (sp) valve gears on the right side, both air pumps moved to the left side, and all that Griesly (sp) valve gear stuff gone. Check out some of THOSE photos!

I have learned that railfans only care what it looks like and that railroaders only care if it works.

The middle valve gear on the 9000's is a design by the UK's Sir Nigel Gresley. 

Having done it twice, I can assure you that making the Gresley levers "work" is not a big deal.  What is a big deal is making the levers - we were going to make some masters for nickel silver casting.

...all the same, given the compromises of manufacture vs. realism, a nice looker and legacy.....

 

 

OF all of the 4-12-2s I have seen, the best is Sunset's 1981 model-with a completely rounded boiler.  There are some on ebay right now.  The Lionel version, along with their new NYC Hudson, and S.P. AC-9 has that HIDEOUS U-shaped boiler.  Count me out!!!

Personally, I would rather NOT compromise quite that much, and prefer better attention to details instead of silly stuff, like smoke out of the whistle, visored headlights, and cast-in piping.

I agree with Robert.  The Sunset version is among the better steam models in O Scale. It was way better than the larger SP models that Sunset brought out - in fact, something so simple as a Commonwealth tender truck was far better done on the earlier SS 9000 than on later models.

 

But really, I am startled with the realism in these 3-rail offerings.  We never had it this good back in the 1970s.

 

Are you telling me that the new 700 Legacy Hudson has a U shaped boiler? Blasphemy!

 

To bob2

Yes bob, the Lionel Hudson has a U-shaped boiler!  I saw one at a hobby store and I saw the boiler sides from a mile away.  I understand this was done to allow room for the circuit boards.   I think the thing went for over $1000.  I wouldn't give $300 for it.  People have touted about the sound system in this engine.  I would take a Scalecraft over this-opinion only.

What I find interesting is, that Lionel seemed to do such a great job on that "clean sheet of paper" UP FEF-3 model. I have one, and although it is Legacy, it doesn't have all that steam out the whistle & blow-down crap. It runs great, in spite of the fact the "chuffing smoke" went belly up, which I could care less about since the smoke fluid messes up the scenery as well as the weathering on the model.

Me too - mine is black, and I sometimes wish it was Greyhound.  I have only the driver tires to machine and it will take its place among the 2- rail FEFs.

 

I was not going to spring for the Legacy Hudson anyway - I have my heart set on the 1990s version to complement my 763 and my MTH J1e.

Geez. Enough with the rivet counting already. Fortunately for rest of us 99% Modelers, Lionel does not base their designs on your rivet counting opinions. The majority of us like to actually operate our engines (steam whistle and blow down steam effects) and see it in action. If you don't like the dolled up version or grey version then DONT BUY IT!! But don't turn this hobby into MTH and 3rd rail boat against Lionel. Grow up please.

Did you forget your pills?  This was a reasonably polite discussion.

Please remember that this is the 3RS Forum! These are the types of discussions that many of us 3RS Modelers enjoy in order to improve the appearance and performance of our models.

 

If you don't care about 3RS Modeling, then maybe you should just stay over on the 3-Rail "toy" Trains Forum, which generally does NOT include "rivet counting"!

Is this undecorated model available yet ?  Have not seen any advertised.  Have seen undecorated Pacific advertised but no 4-12-2.

It has been a while sinced I asked about the crankpin arrangement on the Lionel model.  This morning I disassembled one in preparation to 2 railing it.  Lionel did set the driver crankpins at 120 degrees, right lead,  They also installed an internal crankshaft on the xecond driver that is connected to a main rod and crosshead located in the middle of the frame.  It is not connected to th Gresley valve gear but it looks pretty good.  This will be interesting to get back together!

 

Lionel only installed flanges on the 1st and 5th driver sets.  The rest of the drivers are flangeless. Interestingset up.  Rear crankpin screws are longer to allow some play in the side rods.

 

Joe Foehrkolb

 

 

MTH did the same arrangement on the flanges of their UP 4-12-2 as well.

 

Stuart

Joe - you gonna flange them all?  Are you still machining tires by onesies, or do you have a screw machine?  I get so tired of machining tires that I am putting off finishing the FEF.

Bob,

 

Not sure about the flange arrangement as yet.  Model owner would like the model to negotiate 5' radius.  I think some of the drivers will have to be blind.  The easiest thing would be to follow Lionel's approach.  I am quite sure that would work but it would not be prototypically correct but neither would the real engine ever be seen negotiating tight curves equivalent to a 60" radius.    As I am sure you know the real UP engines started out with the 4th driver blind but the railroad found that it was unnecessary and the locomotive wound up with all drivers flanged! 

 

As to your other question, I make so many different sized driver tires during the course of a year that a screw machine would do me no good.  I turn out a couple of dozen tire blanks at a time on my big lathe and fit what I need to the driver centers of the model I am working on.  Spares go in a coffee can for possible future use and they usually get used in a short time.  I don't waste much steel tubing.

 

You would be correct to assume that the process of machining drivers is not something I enjoy doing anymore but I buckle down and get the job done in short order once I start the process on a model.

 

No one seems to want Atlantics or Pacifics converted. I see mostly large engines in the shop with lots of drivers! When I get a small locomotive to convert it seems to go very quickly!  I just finished a Lionel N&W Y-6b.

 

Joe Foehrkolb

 

 

 

Joe Foehrkolb

Joe - the Kratville book says that 9000 was delivered with fourth driver blind, but it was flanged immediately.  My 9000 using USH drivers, all flanged, makes it ok on my 74" radius.  I can test it on 70".  My spies say you have 72", which I believe is the goal?

Bob,

 

72" is my maximum mainline radius.  I do have a yard lead with 180 degrees of 64" radius so I can try the finished loco on that section of track.  The model's owner does not seemed to be that concerned about the number of flanged drivers but more concerned that the model will operate on 2 rail and negotiate his smaller curves.

 

I only want to set this engine up once so the easiest thing to do is follow Lionel's design.  I don't want to take the chance that by flanging more of the  drivers it will not operate on tight curves.  One of the problems with converting this Lionel model is that it has rigid side rods (they are split at the 4th axle into two pieces) and even with some lateral motion added to the axles, they will not float laterally as well as they would with knuckled side rods.  I think the extra long crankpin screws on the rear driver set are some attempt to allow some lateral motion but that does not make total sense to me because the rear driver set is blind and would not require lateral motion.  Maybe it gives some breathing room to the fifth flanged driver?

 

If I wanted a 4-12-2 for myself, I would search for a 2 rail model like yours with all of the drivers flanged.  Having no more than a remote interest in the UP that will never happen.  Drivers will be pulled and machining started today.

 

Joe

You would not have to search far.  The Third Rail/Sunset model of a decade ago was one of the best values in O Scale, right alongside their SP Berk and the AC-4/5/6.  I did a magazine review of all of them, and rated them highly.

 

If you ever get a picky customer, we have the capability of making side rods to the quality of CLW, fully clevised.  I believe we already have patterns for the 9000 class - just have to find the molds.  Some may already be cast up.  Drilling and pinning on a twelve-coupled model is not trivial, but if I did it, you can easily do it.

Joe, for what it's worth, there is presently one of the early Sunset, un-painted UP 9000 class models for sale on "the Bay", and last I checked it was UNDER $800! Sure seems cheap for a model THAT good. 

Bob and Hotwater.

 

I understand what you are saying.  I have no interest in the model but it surprises me that the owner of this model wants the Lionel model 2 railed instead of purchasing a Sunset.  The Lionel engine may our perform the Sunset model in continuous service.  I will say that Lionel and MTH Premier models seem to be made to operate.

 

The roughed out driver tires were mounted to the center castings this morning.  If time permits tomorrow I will finish maching them once the Loctite 609 has a chance to set up.  Tender is finished with Kadee coupler and lighting. NWSL blunt axle 36" wheels fit the Lionel trucks nicely with some spacer washers added to the ends of the axles to adjust their lateral motion.

 

So far so good.

 

Joe