The pre-electronic age

Bill

there are many of us still playing with conventional and mechanical trains. None of my O gauge electric trains are newer than 1973, most are prewar...

You're not the only one.  While I have the equipment to run TMCC, DCS, and DCC, (I'm in S Scale) most of my running is conventional DC.

While command, sound and all the other stuff is neat and I'm not going to gut my so equipped locomotives, I still find running conventional enjoyable.

Rusty

Joske's of Texas, "the biggest store in the biggest state" in 1952!

Given I would upgrade every last one of my conventional locomotives with maintenance-free can motors, command control and sound if doing so was possible and rational, suppose I'm in the camp embracing the new technology.  Also like the physical details of more recent products. 

Bill DeBrooke posted:

I found this site a couple of weeks ago.  I was mostly looking for information on late 70's, early 80's Williams trains.  After reading the posts for a while another question has occurred to me.

Am I the only guy who would be happy running my trains around the track without the headaches of all these electronic miracles?

I got my first train in 1952 at Joske's in San Antonio.  I carried it home in my lap sitting in the back seat of my grandmother's 1935 Ford.  I loved that 671RR and all the others that followed.  Like most of us I put them away until 1970 when I was introduced to the TCA.  It started all over again.  My layout achieved the size that small boys dream about.   No multiple trains on one track, no station sounds, no remote uncoupling and fairly lousy smoke but endless hours of running my trains without having to worry that they might roll over and die if I said the wrong thing or pushed the wrong button.

Like I said, am I the only guy?

Some passing thoughts, Bill......

The magic of electronics started in 1935 with Lionel's patent on the whistle.  American Flyer had a vacuum tube whistle in 1950.  William K. Walthers published a book in 1948 called Toy, Tinplate and Scale Model Railroading.  In this book he described a method of using positive and negative DC offset to control more than just a whistle.  I even mentioned this book under References Cited in the TAS UCUB patent.  

So i guess this is more about the clever, simple, and robust electronics vs the complex and somewhat delicate electronics we are now used to.  

It is still fun just to run conventionally just for sake of the whistle and the ozone!

Lou N

I remember when Alaska became a state.  Joske's became, 'the greatest store in the greatest state'.

My degree is in electronics, and I have spent my career working with electronics, specifically electronics and electrical controls in the electric power transmission industry.

And my trains don't use any electricity, let alone electronics:

Bill DeBrooke posted:

I found this site a couple of weeks ago.  I was mostly looking for information on late 70's, early 80's Williams trains.  After reading the posts for a while another question has occurred to me.

Am I the only guy who would be happy running my trains around the track without the headaches of all these electronic miracles?

I got my first train in 1952 at Joske's in San Antonio.  I carried it home in my lap sitting in the back seat of my grandmother's 1935 Ford.  I loved that 671RR and all the others that followed.  Like most of us I put them away until 1970 when I was introduced to the TCA.  It started all over again.  My layout achieved the size that small boys dream about.   No multiple trains on one track, no station sounds, no remote uncoupling and fairly lousy smoke but endless hours of running my trains without having to worry that they might roll over and die if I said the wrong thing or pushed the wrong button.

Like I said, am I the only guy?

Yes running trains without the headache of electronics. Accessories that made loud buzzing sounds and just worked sometimes,  trains that had no slow speed capability, no real sounds, buzzing e-units, no cruise, undersized trains, very little scale, lack of detail.  I’ll take the electronics any day of the week over what we used to have.

Bill DeBrooke posted:

 worry that they might roll over and die if I said the wrong thing or pushed the wrong button.

Like I said, am I the only guy?

This is an exaggerated statement folks have conjured up on this forum for fear of the unknown. There are plenty of modern trains that log tons of hours without issue.

When is the last time you feared your cordless phone or remote controlled T.V. would roll over and die?

At the same time I recall an article in Classic toy trains where Madison hardware was exchanging defective postwar trains for new ones.

Will my modern trains last 50+ years?? I don't know. Does it matter? I won't be here, and neither will any other expensive item I've ever owned outside of the house I live in.

I enjoy trains that look , sound, and operate like the real thing. For me it adds to the fun and interest. To each his own, nothing wrong with those postwar coffee grinder trains either.

Bill, you're not the only one who still likes conventional control and older trains. Most of my trains are prewar tinplate, and I wouldn't consider doing any conversions on them. A few months ago, I decided to add DCS and I love it. Yes, it has its quirks, but so do E-units. What sold me on DCS is that it gives you the ability to run older, conventional trains with a wireless remote control, instead of being tied to a transformer. I currently have 2 DCS-equipped engines, and will likely add more, but prewar trains will always be my primary interest. I saw adding DCS as a way to add flexibility and improve the operation of my older trains, while making the most of the few modern trains in my collection. For relatively short money, you can add DCS to your layout and give it a try. You might be surprised. 

John

You are not the only one:  I use TMCC, and I regret the day I ever went that direction.  Every one of my expensive engines suffers from some kind of problem, and the whole layout is as sensitive to track contamination as if it were Z scale.

My plan is start working back toward conventional.  It will involve ripping electronics out of the engines and simple wiring, but it is the future on my layout.

I too am a conventional operator.  I briefly delved into Lionchief Plus but sold the two locos I bought in favor of conventional types.  My brain can fully understand electricity.  Electronics, on the other hand is too abstract.  I can repair my conventional trains, myself !   There isn't much to repair with electronics.  Simply throw it away and buy new.  

Others, I'm sure, may feel differently.  But for those of us who need to see nuts and bolts, conventional is the way.

I use only Direct Digital Control, my Digits Directly on the Control handles of a ZW.                        Works every time.

Chris Sheldon

I recently purchased a used MTH scale Big Blow turbine set...all three pieces...for cheap.

I was told it was PS-1. I'm not really a fan of PS-1...or PS-3...however I do really like PS-2...

At any rate, the price was right...but surprise...when it showed up, no PS-1...in fact, no boards at all.

The previous owner had installed a heavy duty rectifier...and everything works...the motors, the smoke, the lights. No sound, and it won't reverse. But...surprise, that combo is one of my favorite engines, because it's really trouble free and just goes and goes...lol.

I like them all...old school and new.

Sometimes sound and smoke are a distraction...and the zombie-fying effect of watching a train run mindlessly around the track while you visualize in your mind the projects you can tackle or plans for your layout is just what an overworked mind needs.

Don't sweat it...it's all good...and that big blow just showed me how I can keep all my more expensive engines running without breaking the bank...by myself...if I want.

Or not.

I say let 'em roll... whatever you like best.

Never liked conventional when I was a kid in the 50's and still don't. 

I have had tmcc since 1995 and dcs since 2000 and never looked back, my wish came true. 

I like all the electronics they can stuff into our trains, the more the better, but then that is just me. 

Run what you like, old school or the new electronic marvels. Most of all------HAVE FUN.

Dave 

With all due respect to Lou N., I never considered Lionel's whistle control system to be electronic. With that said, my interest lies in trains with universal motors, electromechanical reversing units, and whistle relays. I do have some trains with electronics because I liked the item, not the guts.

One exception: I do like the 1940's Lionel electronic set. In my experience, they don't work very well.

quite a bit of the problem occur when you have track shorts or derailments and are using a ZW 275 transformer and buy the time the circuit breaker trips the boards are fried! That's not the fault of the electronic engines but from using the wrong transformer which does not have adequate fast breaker protection! for one people leave there electronic engines sit for many years before running them again like mth ps 1 engines and there has been many forum asc techs that always tell you NEVER try to run a used train you just bought after sitting a long period  of time with out checking over and replacing  the battery PRIOR to powering the engine. not the fault of the engine or manufacture for this when you did not listen to expert asc techs on this forum! 

Lionel also uses a battery and many people don't check there battery either after a long period of not using there engine or purchase a used and and the first thing they do is put it on the track. and then ask forum for help what can I do the fix my new used train!

That's not the fault of the electronic engines but from using the wrong transformer which does not have adequate fast breaker protection!

It's not the fault of the transformer either. They generally work fine with the equipment they were designed to run.

Do any of the modern train companies warn customers about the risk of using older power supplies? Did they ever?

In any case, older power supplies can be safely used by adding some external protection. Exactly how to accomplish this has been discussed here many times. Folks that are not up to setting up this protection would be better off not mixing electronically controlled trains with older power supplies.

I like both - conventional or command control.  I run all my tin plate conventionally and never met a pre- or post-war train I didn't like.

-Greg

C W Burfle posted:

I do have some trains with electronics because I liked the item, not the guts.

Exactly.  I always get a chuckle when folks say they like a certain item, but because it doesn't have "xyz" feature, it's a deal breaker.

I get the feeling some these folks would be happy with a section of 2x4 as long as it had command, smoke, sound and crew talk.

Rusty

Bill DeBrooke posted:

Am I the only guy who would be happy running my trains around the track without the headaches of all these electronic miracles?

Like I said, am I the only guy?

No, you're not.

I love running my MTH engines using DCS but; I also enjoy running my WbB engines in a conventional manner.  I’ve never understood why some folks think this hobby has to be a matter of absolutes.  

Curt

I'm a hands on guy so it's conventional for me.

I'm both. I have the DCS system and use it for my command engines and my postwar Lionel and now American Flyer. I've probably purchased my last command engines as my interest has now taken me back to the postwar period. Guess I love the old stuff.........like me.

C W Burfle posted:

With all due respect to Lou N., I never considered Lionel's whistle control system to be electronic. With that said, my interest lies in trains with universal motors, electromechanical reversing units, and whistle relays. I do have some trains with electronics because I liked the item, not the guts.

One exception: I do like the 1940's Lionel electronic set. In my experience, they don't work very well.

Thanks CW.  My point of view comes from the intent of the original patent where the whistle motor is DC and activated by the DC offset.  That didn't happen and it became an AC motor activated by a shaded pole relay.  The concept of generating a DC offset with a diode and resistor is clever in and of itself.  I'm sure we could discuss the novelty of electrical vs electronic but to say the least, the concept has added much to our enjoyment of the hobby.

Lou N

Your not the only one. Sometimes sitting at computer that is  close to layout and in eyesight will run many of the pre and postwar trains with dcs remote and they run nice on small 4x8 layout.

Let me make one statement first. I have TMCC and Legacy L but prefer Conventional. I have more prewar than Postwar, I have more postwar than 1996 and newer. 

But lets look at this thou in another aspect do you have any switches that will through themselves as the train goes around and hits trips of some kind. ( Ie your running your train towards the switch thrown in wrong direction but you non-derailing switch through's itself.  Your in the electronic age. You set up a watchman to hit a 145C/153C and it pops out, your in the electronics age. This that I'm showing is not to start an argument of you didn't mean this as I know but this is to point basically where it started.  But do I like tmcc, sometimes but I do prefer the conventional and setting it up to trigger different things. 

rtraincollector posted:

Let me make one statement first. I have TMCC and Legacy L but prefer Conventional. I have more prewar than Postwar, I have more postwar than 1996 and newer. 

But lets look at this thou in another aspect do you have any switches that will through themselves as the train goes around and hits trips of some kind. ( Ie your running your train towards the switch thrown in wrong direction but you non-derailing switch through's itself.  Your in the electronic age. You set up a watchman to hit a 145C/153C and it pops out, your in the electronics age. This that I'm showing is not to start an argument of you didn't mean this as I know but this is to point basically where it started.  But do I like tmcc, sometimes but I do prefer the conventional and setting it up to trigger different things. 

Actually, by powering your trains with electricity you're in the electronic age...  Change speed from the transformer, blow the whistle, change direction, you're in the electronic age.

The only difference is the level of electronic sophistication between 1900 and the present.

Rusty

C W Burfle posted:

...Folks that are not up to setting up this protection would be better off not mixing electronically controlled trains with older power supplies.

Folks that are not up to setting up this protection would be better off not mixing electronically controlled trains with newer power supplies as well. No modern power supplies have Transient Voltage Suppression... the TIU has it but is not a power supply.

WindupGuy posted:

My degree is in electronics, and I have spent my career working with electronics, specifically electronics and electrical controls in the electric power transmission industry.

And my trains don't use any electricity, let alone electronics:

 

WOW! SUPERCOOOOOOL! Thanks for sharing, Scott.

Bill DeBrooke posted:

I found this site a couple of weeks ago.  I was mostly looking for information on late 70's, early 80's Williams trains.  After reading the posts for a while another question has occurred to me.

Am I the only guy who would be happy running my trains around the track without the headaches of all these electronic miracles?

I got my first train in 1952 at Joske's in San Antonio.  I carried it home in my lap sitting in the back seat of my grandmother's 1935 Ford.  I loved that 671RR and all the others that followed.  Like most of us I put them away until 1970 when I was introduced to the TCA.  It started all over again.  My layout achieved the size that small boys dream about.   No multiple trains on one track, no station sounds, no remote uncoupling and fairly lousy smoke but endless hours of running my trains without having to worry that they might roll over and die if I said the wrong thing or pushed the wrong button.

Like I said, am I the only guy?

No you are not. Except for Super O track I don't care for three rail trains after 1950. No, the newer stuff is ok just not my cup of tea. Also I like UCS track. Hope you keep lov'in your trains, Scott.

Conventional is great for bringing back those childhood memories, and running in a more bulletproof fashion.

As for me,  I personally prefer post war. I pretty much understand what makes them work and can do my own repairs at hardly any cost. It's also a buyers market, maybe that's why I have several 20 series steam engines w/correct tenders, like four 2056's, two 2055, also five 41 switchers and several duplicate set of the 2400 series passenger cars. Just to names a few. Most of the time when I purchase a postwar engine that's listed runs but not steady, tender sounds like it want to work.  I'll take them apart, clean up the  commutator on the motor, brush holders, new wires, oil and grease them, and they'll run and whistle like new.  

I was thinking this would be about live steam locomotives from the early 1900's since those are truly "pre-electronic".

WindupGuy posted:

My degree is in electronics, and I have spent my career working with electronics, specifically electronics and electrical controls in the electric power transmission industry.

And my trains don't use any electricity, let alone electronics:

 

Wow, James that is a great video of an unconventional layout. That 1203 Triplex accelerates like a Tesla Model S.

It's nice to see your trains "spring" into action. Well done!

TJ

Pre war, post war, modern it's all good this is for fun & I'm just happy to play with trains period.

Folks that are not up to setting up this protection would be better off not mixing electronically controlled trains with newer power supplies as well. No modern power supplies have Transient Voltage Suppression... the TIU has it but is not a power supply.

I find it incredible that the manufacturers don't put  TVS devices in both their power supplies and their motorized units.
IMHO, the folks buying newly made trains should demand it.

I have 2 layouts, one DCS/Legacy and one for my conventional Prewar/postwar items. For many years I struggled with the modern electronic systems. Then one day I ran an old conventional engine and realized the serenity of no electrical problems.  Lately I have been buying older Lionel engines and accessories.

I must confess, even though I run strictly conventional indoors, I run track power with G Scale Graphics RC control on my outdoor layout.  Layout is too big to be tied to a fixed control.

Chris Sheldon

Bill DeBrooke posted:

…. without the headaches of all these electronic miracles?

One person's headache is another person's fun.  My layout will be able to run conventional for when my "conventional only" friends drop by for some train fun.