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For those with perhaps a better business sense than I, please help me understand this issue which is bugging me. 

MTH and Lionel have proprietary operating systems, and existing tooling for remotes.  But by most accounts, they are planning to discontinue manufacturing of the remotes.  Yes, of course the electronics will need to be updated at some point, but I guess I can't understand how they would not WANT to produce new remotes.  

It seems to me that the remotes would have more profit margin that the trains.  Think of the issues involved with producing new locomotives and rolling stock as far as variety of details etc year after year, but basically, the same remote can be sold year after year after year.

Plus, even though we've all accepted that the phone apps are the way of the future, I don't know, I still think even if they have the apps, a good percentage of hobbyists, maybe most other than first time buyers, would at some point buy a remote.  

Yes, sure there is a cost associated with developing a new remote, but so what?  If you are MTH or Lionel, that's your business, you have proprietary operating systems, and you could likely fit the new electronics into the existing cases so could use the same tooling, or maybe just need to modify the tooling for different internal mounts, etc.  

Even if the operating systems are public or will become public, its not like there is enough market for a third party to be interested in further dividing a small market, but for MTH and Lionel, IDK, it just seems strange to me that they would choose to discontinue something like this.

I get it, I am not an old man out of touch with technology, I grew up with computers and am tech savvy, and people think this is the wave of the future, but IDK, it might just be the wave of the present.  There's really no novelty of controlling the train with a phone.  I understand that some people who are not that into tech think this is so groundbreaking, but it really wouldn't be thought of that way by young people at this point.  Frankly I think the pendulum is actually already swinging back to where kids would be more interested in a novel remote than using the "device" as usual.  Then they could still check their texts and email and whatnot like they do all day and still have the train running with the dedicated remote.  I guess I just still think that the remotes would sell for train hobbyists, and would have a better margin than some other things these companies make.  

Not my field, not my paycheck, but just for kicks, what am I missing?  Is blutooth or wifi that expensive to license or develop a circuit for, or is the processing to use those transmission schemes too expensive for a reasonably priced remote?

Maybe its a cost and marketing thing: right now they sunk all their R&D money into the app, so the marketing is that the app is the best thing since sliced bread, wow man wave of the future, then in a couple years it'll be hey here's a dedicated Bluetooth DCS or Legacy remote, wow man, awesome, way better than using your phone!     

Last edited by pennsy484
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Software defects are cheap to fix (SW code engineer (and maybe testers) labor only).  Hardware defects are not (in addition to HW engineer time, then the tooling, manufacturing time, schedule, resource requirements, parts obsolescence, etc).

As an example (not picking on MTH), the original DCS system was first cataloged something like 2 years (maybe a little more than that) before it was actually available to purchase.  During that time, it evolved, and MTH was incrementally demonstrating features as they had them available.  At a point, they had a functional TIU, but were using a laptop to simulate the still not perfected remote.

That production scenario probably sticks with MTH to this day in terms of the resources involved to get it working.  The Device Driven solution lets them ignore hardware, and just focus on making software improvements to work on current devices, add new features, etc.

I'm not a fan of it, but I think that's the reality of it.  I prefer the remote too.  I won't be using a phone or tablet anytime soon for train control.

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

Agreed.  I got into this hobby last year.  I took one look at the remotes and thought they were laughable.  Why not use your phone?  Well, a year later, and I much prefer the remotes.  They're just easier to use.  I'm 46.  My kids are 12 & 14.  We all go for the remotes!  But I fear it's like Dave said.  They don't want to deal with the hardware.

I like the remotes I have for both DCS and Legacy, but I finally got my WIU working with the latest updates and software - I'm quickly becoming a convert. The 2 things I like the best about using the DCS app are:

  1. Grandkids can now run a train using their iPhone instead of just watching "Pops" walk around the table with a remote. The app, like everything on the phone these days, is pretty self-explanatory so the learning curve consists mostly of me saying, "No ramming trains!". Before installing the WIU, I'd have had to buy 3 more expensive remotes for this same experience. That experience being running trains with the 3 grandkids, not ramming trains.
  2. MTH can work out the kinks or add new features and I get the benefit of that with a download instead of having to send back a remote for a repair (had the unresponsive wheel issue with my one and only remote) or buy a newer version of an improved piece of hardware. All my remotes get upgraded in the comfort of my own home.

Bring on the new technology! Voice command next?

 

pennsy484 posted:

 There's really no novelty of controlling the train with a phone. 

I agree 100%, I want to watch my trains, not look at my phone ipad etc. trying to find the appropriate touch screen icons to make my train operate.

I'm unfamiliar with DCS but the Legacy remote is very intuitive and the majority of the major train operation functions can be activated by feel as you watch your locomotive make its way around the layout.

Lastly, picking up an actual train remote provides a good opportunity for me to put my **** cell phone down.

I have used TMCC since the first year it was on the market. While no model railroad is really ever done, mine is a "mature" state with 15 TMCC equipped locomotives, somewhere between 60 and 80 pieces of rolling stock, 30 turnouts, finished scenery,etc. At age 75 i'm mostly interested in up grading scenic details, changing from twin coil switch machines to Tortoise, doing a little weathering, and converting to LED's wherever possible. I have zero interest in running my trains with anything other than the Lionel Cab 1. 

In fact my cell phone is an old flip phone that retired the same time i did; it has been moved into a desk drawer where it may rest in peace. As far as an app goes, i'm not sure what one is, don't care to learn, and don't know why i would need one.  While i may be in a minority and certainly not part of a growth market  in the hobby, i am certain there a many more of us who are quite content with our remotes and may never "graduate" to running our trains from phones.

 

As I said earlier the remotes seem to give better control for me.  It is so easy to do the quilling on the remote.  I have seen the MTH app and it does look like it has more functionality than the Lionel version I used.  There is a free simple app called BlueTrain4 that simulates the Cab1 that I like.  It is direct and simple and laid out like the Cab1,  For my Legacy engines I prefer the Legacy remote.  So when is Lionel looking at phasing out the Legacy?

beachhead2 posted:
Reading RR posted:

So when is Lionel looking at phasing out the Legacy?

They're not yet.  Pure speculation.

Yes, I am speculating based on interviews I have heard (not with Lionel people, but Andy Edelman on notch 6 a while ago, and the rumored bundling of the tui and wiu with no remote as the ways its going to be shortly), and the seeming sense of inevitably that I personally sense from reading the forum. The idea that  "oh of course the phone control is the way of the future* whichever would seem to encompass Lionels outlook as well (but I sure hope not).  

I am just wondering what people's thoughts are as to the financial viability of these companies (Lionel and MTH) producing new remotes as the need arises due to inevitable component unavailability at some point.

I wonder if you made a guy like gunrunnerjohn similarly situated to MTH or Lionel, i.e., give him the existing tooling for the current remote, the budget they would spend on development of such a thing, a loan, and the ability to use the company name on the remotes, would that guy (John or some other qualified person) be able to to turn a profit in a reasonable worthwhile amount of time time selling remotes (including with legacy system or with the TIU).

Yes its a small market and probably a pretty rough business to be in at this point but if you are basically the only two major players,, it just seems like it would be a worthwhile investment.

I suspect we will see new remotes at some point down the road, maybe using Bluetooth or wifi.  Speculation.

I want my remote. I'm not tech minded and don't really want to be. My phone style was in style when flip phones where but is a open face phone with out all the touch screen stuff and it serves me well. I have a pay per month plan thru verizon and I get a big 300 minutes a month with and probably use about 5. 

I have cab1 and legacyL controllers, and I'm very happy with both. My newest engine is probably from around 2005, so I'm good but have to admit sense the new lionchief 2.0 has a Berkshire  for MSRP of $499.99 I might look into it, as I can control it with my controllers. 

Or you could have my experience, with the app, never worked right, because of a hardware fault in the DCS, i was saved by a DCS remote commander that does work. I'll stick to the remotes, touch controls are great, when they work, it also in some ways adds to Lionel and MTH development costs do to having to support multiple operating systems, that you hope are good at running you app on different hardware,and it adds with the phone the issue of having to add internet firewalls on toy trains, something custom, not internet of things based hardware does not have to worry about.  It sounds cheap if you ignore costs of now having to add internet security to your products, which using old estimates can drive the cost up by a quarter or more, and would require more powerful hardware to run all the added does not add to play value security, which adds to cost again. Then Legacy and DCS have been internet reliant for years for updates, that you hope install right. One of those a penny saved and a pound lost issues.

hello

I'm old school I use the transformers no remotes no phone and they run great I run two trains in one track in opposite direction and two trains one  track in same direction and have no problems I see post here all the time my electrons are not working  just my thought. I do have a cab 1 I disconnected and went back to the transformers

kevin  

The LC+ remote is terrific for little kids, ages 5 to 7. My 7 year old grandaughter loves them.

She does not have a smartphone yet, though I'm sure she would love to have one. When she gets a smartphone, maybe in 5+ years, she might love running trains using the App. 

Still, I think it would be unfortunate to eliminate the remote. At the very least, they should be made so people have the option of buying them.  Arnokd

modeltrainsparts posted:

I have used TMCC since the first year it was on the market. While no model railroad is really ever done, mine is a "mature" state with 15 TMCC equipped locomotives, somewhere between 60 and 80 pieces of rolling stock, 30 turnouts, finished scenery,etc. At age 75 i'm mostly interested in up grading scenic details, changing from twin coil switch machines to Tortoise, doing a little weathering, and converting to LED's wherever possible. I have zero interest in running my trains with anything other than the Lionel Cab 1. 

In fact my cell phone is an old flip phone that retired the same time i did; it has been moved into a desk drawer where it may rest in peace. As far as an app goes, i'm not sure what one is, don't care to learn, and don't know why i would need one.  While i may be in a minority and certainly not part of a growth market  in the hobby, i am certain there a many more of us who are quite content with our remotes and may never "graduate" to running our trains from phones.

 

Jackson, you of having "used TMCC since the first year it was on the market", you were a new tech pioneer! What happened to your sense of adventure? You already "graduated" way back in 1994 from the transformer arm to remote control. Moving from remote to a smartphone app would give you your master's degree! 

Well, maybe not. It's really just another way of doing the same thing. Hope the remotes keep working for everyone that enjoys using one.

On an unrelated matter, would anyone here on the forum vote for getting rid of their television remote in favor of say, voice command? For one, I can never find the TV remote between it falling into the cracks of the couch and the dog that likes to bring it out back. For another, the remote I got from DirecTV is too complicated for my simple mind. "Alexa, turn on the Boston Bruins game." That's the ticket.

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