These poor Santa Fe's

I have no idea what is coating your units.  If they were mine I could test a small area first, using a very mild soap (ivory) water solution and a real "soft" tooth brush.  See how it cleans, possibly one the end first.  If it works, do small areas at a time.  I wish I could help more, but that's what I would do and wear Nitril gloves.

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

It may be mold. Test some vinegar, too.

Good gosh, Lee I thought you were going to say....Don

I think the "hump" is normal for these.
Check out Trainz.com for a detailed history off the variations.
I always start with dish soap and my fingers. Then a soft test tube brush or similar to clean the gunk out of the books and crannies.

That hump is common.in the 2343.

Not to jack a thread, but the hump. I see it in a lot of those PW engines. I have one. But I see many that do not. Was this a mfg defect or was due to long running and the heat from the headlight bulb causing the shell to hump?

Thanks guys. I'll give the gentler approaches a try. Should I remove the shell do to this?

 

Based on the comments its probably mold. This came from a small collection from the original owner. There is some rust on the items but more oxidation. Lots of oxidation. Some items were fine actually. I did not see any evidence of fire damage.

 

I was curious about the humps being from storage heat. Only one unit has motors so doubt it was that. The humps look the same so maybe it is by design. Thanks for the ideas on finding more info.

 

The box has the store info printed on it so its more then just a price tag. I'll post a photo when I have a chance.

 

Did this version come with portals? those are missing but seemed off that ALL of them are missing.

 

 

The "hump" is most likely were the main spru from the die was located.  Not all units suffer this anomaly. Less than ideal storage exacerbates this condition.  The early Alco's also suffer from this.

 

You may have to use a light, non abrasive polish on the cabs.  You may lose the fragile silver.

 

Yes, remove the shells from the frames.  Two large screws in the rear and one smaller one behind the apron in the front.  The shell will lift straight off.

Yes, this version has plastic port hole lenses.  You can obtain reproductions which will look like new.  Once you clean the shell, inspect the chassis because the die cast frame area should be cleaned also.

 

Basically the whole chassis, motors, trucks, e unit should be removed, clean old lubricants off, re-lube and re-assemble.  If you are not comfortable doing this maybe there is a member who lives nearby who can help you. 

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

That looks like mildew.  How's the cleaning coming along?

 

Fred

The 2 pairs of 2343s I have do not have this hump in them, and they are also without porthole windows.  Mine look like they were played with in the dirt.  I've been taking mine to the kitchen sink and cleaning with warm water and Dawn with an old soft toothbrush.  Where can you get new decals and hand rails and other parts like screws and the screen and windshield retainers?  I found the port hole windows on eBay looking for something else.

eh, Last night I tried a small spot with a warm water on paper towel. I think the red will be fine but the grey like another poster mentioned, maybe screwed. I may try a little more tonight with vinegar/water solution and soft toothbrush but may not get to spend real time until the following weekend.

 

I did notice that one of these did have a portal so I'll have to see if I can find some used ones but will wait to see if these shells are salvageable. I have some F3 shells that need these chasis which was sort of the plan when I went after these. I have another pair of SF's that I grew up with but those shells are beat up and missing all the extras.

Your 2343s had separate port holes. The rest of this thread is chock full of good advice for you and anyone else who needs to clean truly dirty postwar diesels.

 

Ed Boyle

Not a PW guy, but I have seen more than a few Lionel PW F-3's (who hasn't?) and

have NEVER seen one with a hump - on the Alco either. They look like they are doing an

imitation of the old Kusan F7 (now Williams F7 - sans hump; that was fixed). Anyway,

the hump would have been a deal breaker for me; completely destroys the

desirability of the units except as (non-body-shell) parts donors. 

Dawn detergent and a soft brush...

 

Gee Rich, and I thought you were not a collector. Looks like working with me on Collector's Gallery is beginning to rub off after all these years

 

Ed

I am a post-war kind of guy and I have never seen a 2343,2353 or a 2383 with any kind of hump.  Even the few 2333s I have seen were hump-less.  On the other hand many, if not most, of the early Alcos, which were the good ones, I have seen have had humps present on there shells.  I do not have a clue as to what caused this deformity. 

I have a couple 2343 cabs in my collection and they do indeed have humps, even the B cab.  It mainly occurs in the early 2333, 2343 production, also the 2344.  The plastic used to make those engines is different than the plastic used for the 2353 and later 2383.

 

It always occurs where the thick molding spru was located.  An old article indicated that this was caused by eneven shrinking of the body over time.  While the shrinking is hardly noticeable, it doesn't occur as readily where the spru was, hence, less shrinking and the bump or hump.

 

I've also seen some early cabs bow or bend lengthwise.  They'll sit on the frame at the front and rear ends but bow above the frame in the middle.  I've actually sanded down the front to get the cab to lay flat in the middle.

If you look at the 2353 and the 2245, there is a raised "doughnut" where the drop on the earlier units is.  This was done to prevent this from happening.

 

This might also be a reason L went from wire screens to plastic stuts on the roof.  It cheapened the model, but it would make the roof stronger, I think.

If you look at the 2353 and the 2245, there is a raised "doughnut" where the drop on the earlier units is.  This was done to prevent this from happening.

 

This might also be a reason L went from wire screens to plastic stuts on the roof.  It cheapened the model, but it would make the roof stronger, I think.

If you look at the 2353 and the 2245, there is a raised "doughnut" where the drop on the earlier units is.  This was done to prevent this from happening.

 

This might also be a reason L went from wire screens to plastic stuts on the roof.  It cheapened the model, but it would make the roof stronger, I think.

My 2343's with screen roofs have a hump.  Perhaps not showing as pronounced in the picture, but definitely there. 

 

Try Orange Glo to clean with a soft toothbrush.  I love the stuff.  It works as a cleaner, degreaser and polish while usually gentle enough on the original paint and leaving a nice sheen.

 

For parts call Paul at TrainWorx; 610-872-4699 or trainwx610@aol.com.  He'll set you up and mail everything to you. 

 

You could always get them totally restored for about $350.00 through Len Carpelli: http://www.llmodeltrain.com/

 

That's about what they'd be worth in "excellent" shape per my Price Guide, although I've seen them go for up to twice that at train shows and Ebay.

 

Good Luck!

My picture doesn't seem to be posting :-(

 

Here's a link to a website with a picture of 2343's where hump can be seen:  http://www.postwarlionel.com/c...in/postwar?ITEM=2343. 

 

Again, maybe not so pronounced due to angle, but there.

 

The hump is quite common to early versions.

I don't know but I must be living right because I have several different pairs of 2243s, 2343s, 2353s, 2344s and 2383s and I just went back and examined them all very closely and there are no humps present.  All of these engines have a lot of mileage on them and in no way could be considered in pristine condition so if heat from the motor is supposed to be the cause of this malady it certainly didn't happen to these engines.  Perhaps while looking over other F3s for purchase I simply missed this problem but I have never seen it on an F3, just the Alcos. 

 

Hello, update. Tried some cleaning techniques mentioned and while the front can clean up nicely, the silver is lost. I don't see the silver when I clean it but when the dirt is removed, its yellow unfortunately.

 

Sadly, my backup plan was to use some NH F3 shells I had picked up at auction a couple of years ago but they don't seem to fit. They are Modern or MPC and have metal tabs that would slip on the frames but I was not able to get them on.

 

 

 

These F3's came in a collection that came with these:

https://ogrforum.com/t...pw-congressional-set

 

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions. I'll have to think about restoring them or putting them on the table at York.

They should fit. Is there anything blocking the clips? They may just be tight.

The clips will be a tight fit - don't depend on the clip-to-shell rivets for strength, but help ease them on from below with the shell in a close-to-the chassis orientation for good geometry.

2343's shells are mounted to frame differently.  That NH set matches the 1954 frame with the rear tabs.

True, but the clips still fit the 2343 chassis, the rear screws are not used, the front screw is the only one of the three used.

 

I'll post pictures if there is any question on this.

The biggest cause of humping in all those early Lionel Diesels is improper storage, and is is certainly not helped by Lionel's mold tool design work.   My older cousin got a set of 2333s back when they were current issue, and after about ten years, they went into storage in an un insulated attic.  Saw these units briefly at several intervals over the next couple decades, and they were wiped out good...humped shells, warped frames, and flaked paint!  Whatever stresses are built into those old shells is majorly magnified by the hot/ cold torture in that kind of environment!  Any one doing this today would not only lose the chooch, but all the electronics as well.

Well I learned something with this thread, the humps!  I've never seen this in any PW F3 shells 

 

Stack

Have never seen a set of gray humped shells. They may exist but black ones? Galore.
Not sure storage location has anything to do with it.

Seen black and yellow shells humped to beat the band, but the grey ones are of a later time period, IIRC.  I also believe they have runner venting and sinks not present in the earlier shells.   A ton of these ruined shells show up from the period 1948 to '52....and much lesser numbers later on. I suspect that the composition of the plastic might have been changed in this time period as well. My 2023 UP yellow Alcos stayed straight as an arrow, but were always in a cool. dry spot. 

The Alcos were a known problem - the power unit warped from the motor heat. And then the shells get switched with the dummy.

 

My 1948 2333 set has seen plenty of run-time heat, and both shells are still straight - kept in climate controlled room since I've had them(1966).

 

 

There's a 2023 on flea-pay right now where you can clearly see the hump in the top of the body shell.  Of course, the whole Alco is cosmetically worse for wear too.

I've run these locos 'til they were pretty hot, both F3s and Alcos, and I doubt they could generate the heat over time of an un insulated attic in the summer time, in say Wash. DC. or St. Louis. Then subject 'em to sub freezing in winter, and well, you get the picture!  I've also seen early F3 B-units with body shells in various stages of warpage. Recently turned down a really otherwise primo 2343C because the roof ends were flared up on both ends!  Mega YUK !  We tend to forget just how carelessly our friends and families stored these old treasures IF they didn't care.  I've seen trains stored in wet, rotted out boxes in damp cellars, that were so locked up with rust, you'd need a nuclear explosion to break 'em loose! My first 736 Berk when I got back into Lionel PW in '92, was found by the dealer in a wood fruit box outdoors...filled with fire wood, pine needles, leaves, and mouse poop! Bought her anyway, and restored her because the bearings were good and the drive wheels were still square ! Looked worse than the F3 we're talking about above !