They Don't Make 'em Like That Any More!

 

Hi Bruce    there is a lot to be said about Lionel postwar. They were great! Williams is almost as good but they do have an electronic reverse unit which may not stand the test of time. Enjoy your engine.    Lenny

All of us who were part of this period for Lionel will know how much good quality was an important factor. I was not surprised by your report.

 

Glad it is running so well for you.

I am in 100% agreement with "her" position.  I love Lionel post-war engines especially the 726 and 736 Berkshires.  I know the 1950 and 1964 773 Hudsons are considered iconic Lionel engines but in my opinion the Berky also has to be included in that category.  Smooth running and powerful looking it is a highly desirable engine to search for if a person is looking for quality post war motive power.  Their durability is legendary.  Many of these engines which still exist and run well today were not particularly well cared for by their original owners but still operate beautifully.  Sometimes they run very well after not being serviced for 50 years or so making them  a true monument to the tough, well built trains Lionel manufactured especially in the early post war period.   I realize that this statement will be disputed but my guess is that if the engines of today encounter the wear, tear and abuse that those Lionel engines received they will not hold up nearly as well.  Only time will tell.

 

 

Bruce...nice post and one reason why another 60 years probably will not make a difference in how the old Lionels will run.  Will very little care, they will go on for well over a lifetime...or two....or three...or...????

 

Alan

I agree whole heatedly. I'm still running my 1950 1475WS set with a 2046 baby Hudson. I was a month shy of three years old when Santa gave it to me. It was set up and ran until 1965.  Stored until 1995, it was then set up and it runs till this day. (Just knocked on wood). 

 

I've only replaced the bulb and updated the smoke unit. Purchased at Madison Hardware for $67.50 in 1950, by my Uncle (who made $40 a week at the time), this was a big investment for what was essentially a toy. If only my family knew then how much enjoyment this set would bring me through the years and how their progeny (my children and grandchildren) still love watching and playing with it some 64 years later, they would assuredly know that their hard-earned money was well spent.  

I love my 2025, but there's definitely one regard in which the new stuff is better.. traction tires! My MTH H9 2-8-0 walks this 14 car plus caboose train like it's not there, but my 2025 is on it's knees wishing it had real sanders!  It takes a deft throttle hand just to get this consist rolling.  8 die-cast hoppers, 4 plastic, and a weaver caboose with full interior.  To be fair my 2025 doesn't even have magnatraction, but I doubt it's help much here.

I have a 1946 2020 turbine that I bought off the forum a couple years ago from it's second owner.  He had purchased it as a project but never got around to it.  It was in pretty rough shape when I got it.  I had to rewire it, replace a drive wheel and give it the usual attention all postwar locomotives need, but for being 49 years older than me (and 68 years old) it runs beautifully.  It's original owner had definitely abused it, but I managed to bring it back to life and it's one of my favorite locomotives to run for that reason.

And they never will make then like that again, especially in America. It is a shame but that is probably the truth.

I still have my original 671 that was taken apart and reassembled by my "EXPERT" 8 year old hands many, many times. And it is still the go to steamer for the grand kids. They don't think twice about putting 20+ cars behind it and then sending it up a grade with 031 curves in it. Yup. that's the way they made toys back then.

Denny

The 736 is my favorite PW steamer!  Its big and beautiful and looks majestic puffing and chugging down the track (on 031 curves, no less). Lionel cataloged it almost every year from 1950 through 1964, and it was the engine of choice for many top of the line sets.  The separate sale cost of the engine in 1959 was $47.50, or about the price of a complete set with the 2037 engine, which I got for Christmas.  Average weekly wages in 1959 were $108, so the 736 would have been a major purchase for most people.   While the entry level sets are clearly toys, the higher end equiptment were made of high quality materials and designed to last; they were priced accordingly.  

I understand the point here but let me present both sides of the argument. The 2046 set that my dad purchased in 1947 also runs like new. Its obviously well made, 100% reliable and is the picture of simplicity. I run all conventional trains because I like to keep it simple, keep costs reasonable, and not have reliability concerns. Almost anyone can repair a conventional engine.

On the other hand to gain conventional simplicity and reliability you forgo something; modern features like better detailing, better sound, improved smoke, more complex (wireless) operational capability and convenience of operation to name a few.

Its all a trade off and a question of personal choice. If its important to you, its pretty certain that postwar trains will still be working another 70 years from now but if you want more operational capability, ( and don't mind paying for it)  Legacy, is the right choice. 

 

I have a 1946 726 Berkshire out on my layout right now. it's approaching its 70th birthday, and still runs like a top, making a low humming sound as it goes around my small layout.
Currently it does not have a smoke unit, I may re-install an original smoke bulb unit the next time it is on my bench. (Maybe not, I find that smoke bulbs don't generate much smoke)

 

My preference is for the sound that Berk makes over all the electronically generated sounds of recently made trains. To each their own!

The Postwar stuff does have a certain cache, but the modern Command Control equipped locos are light years ahead of the old stuff.  I got rid of most of my conventional stuff because of the jackrabbit stops and starts and the difficulty of operating more than one loco on the same track.  Just MHO.

There are folks who choose not to run at the speed of light.  Nuthin' wrong with that.

 

Rusty

Dennis,

         There is no question that you are spot on when you state that in terms of High tech operational capabilities today's Legacy Engines and I would also include MTH's PS2 and 3 engines would be the right choice to make if that is what one would prefer.  No question, they are great.  The point of my post is that the old post war and even pre war engines for that matter were manufactured to withstand an incredible amount of abuse and the results of the last 60 years bear out that they are truly durable engines even when not cared for.  As I questioned  in my post, will the modern engines of today be able to stand up to the kind of abuse those old engines endured and still be able to operate 60 to 70 years later?  One has to wonder.  Only the future will tell. 

 

So, here's a guy who is totally ecstatic that his 61 year old loco works fabulously well and along come folks who tell him why he shouldn't be.

 

Reminds me of the joke an old bandleader of mine used to tell:  "Ever wonder why a woman closes her eyes when she's making love?  It's because she can't stand to see a man having a good time."

 

Just close your eyes, boys.

 

Pete

Actually, you CAN run the older power as smoothly as the newer stuff in Conv. wwith the newer transformers which chop the sine wave.  I can get the 675, 726, 2245, 2353 and MPC stuff to a crawl using the customizing settings of the Cab i and PowerMaster or TOC.

 

Bruce,

The 736 & 726 are two of the best. If we were to list the top ten postwar locomotives made by Lionel the "Berks" would be near the top, IMHO. Pieces maintained as you do yours will be going strong for at least another sixty plus years. GOOD JOB!

Here's a little food for thought. Just maybe your grandson will be able to pass it down to his grandson. 

The 736 / 726 are just phenomenal engines.  These represent the best of what America had to offer not only in the toy business, but as a nation that manufactured only the best. Sadly, we couldn't be further from this point today.  Great things have come out of the Lionel factory even outside of the postwar era.  I've got Lionel engines in my collection from my late grandfather's CHILDHOOD - prewar steamers nearing 80 years old -- EIGHTY -- that still look and run beautifully.  And, with proper care and maintenance, I firmly believe my "pre-circuit board" Lionel - a good example being the fantastic 18117 blue/yellow Santa Fe F3's from the early 1990s - will also stand the test of time and become family heirlooms just like their postwar ancestors.

quote:

I firmly believe my "pre-circuit board" Lionel - a good example being the fantastic 18117 blue/yellow Santa Fe F3's from the early 1990s - will also stand the test of time and become family heirlooms just like their postwar ancestors.

 

Its my impression that those 18117 Santa Fe engines were from 1993, and were the last premium engines made with a mechanical E-unit. 

CW, at the same time I believe the last steamer made with the mechanical e unit was the 18050 4-6-2 PRR 2055 made for JC Penney in '96

I didn't purchase any of the larger Modern Era locomotives as they were released. I always thought my money was better spent elsewhere. Over the past few years, I've been picking up some of the premium locomotives, preferably as new, old stock (they are out there). With just a few exceptions, my cut off is the presence of a mechanical e-unit.

So far, I haven't purchased any modern era steamers with spur drive motors, but being that the 18050 was the last of have a mechanical e-unit, I might look to pick one up.

Kind of makes you wonder why some of the  modern   stuff is   having die-cast problems???

 

quote:

Kind of makes you wonder why some of the  modern   stuff is   having die-cast problems???

 

I read a number of articles about ZAMAC die casting and zinc rot. The articles are consistent in laying the cause to impurities in the alloy. The Toy industry was a pioneer in the process. A lot of early ZAMAC diecast trains are prone to zinc rot.
But it shows up in newer stuff too.

For example, some Lionel transformers have ZAMAC control shafts that are commonly found with zinc rot.

I had an NOS MPC EP-5 with both of its dummy truck side frames suffering from Zinc rot.

If recently made stuff is suffering from the malady, then the folks doing the casting must not have very good quality control.

Probably because the pre/postwar stuff that had zinc-rot problems has had time to not only turn to dust but blow away too?  

 

(not to mention the lack of Internet message boards back then to document every end-user-discovered case of it for posterity)

 

I read on this very forum years ago about someone touring an overseas factory where he witnessed someone casually fling a cigarette butt into a vat of moltan zamac. As far as I know nothing was said to the effect that anyone else noticed. 

 

Even if it was a once-in a blue-moon-type incident, I can only imagine what the future rate of spoilage is going to look like, especially if that particular vat of metal is going to cast a large quantity of smallish parts.

 

---PCJ

I've been replacing older KLine MP-15 and Alco diesel wheels that suffered from zinc-rot.  Especially the geared ones, you tend to notice the little parts in the gears right away.

 

The Zamac casting process was perfected in the USA many years ago. Look at the MPC and 90's era trains, no problems.  Chinese metallurgy has been proven to be inferior because they use all recycled metals that are abundant in impurities.

As for the modern electronic TMCC/Legacy stuff lasting. If we compare it to all the other stuff with electronic controls, like microwaves, dishwashers, washing machines and small appliances, the lifespan of the product is no more than 10 years. Our last washing machine with the digital control board lasted 6 years.

Kudos to ya Bruce...and I loved Texas Petes' story/advice. My dad had a good one....."built so good it runs like an Elgin watch"!

 

I love my dad's postwar stuff.  Now with my kids, those trains, many of which are 60-70 years old, see a ton of use and they haven't had much other than maintenance and replacement of "crispy" wires.  I can't say that for the new stuff, which has been less than stellar at times.

 

As to the whole new versus old debate, my viewpoint is this:  I am willing to trade some longevity for the features of the new trains.  And I believe even if those features fail, there will be alternative solutions in the aftermarket.  The new trains have terrific features and I am not afraid of technology-- I adopted TMCC on my old layout in roughly '96-'97 or thereabouts.  That being said, what disturbs me the last few years I have been in the hobby is that it seems the newer trains are not being built to as high a quality standard as the best postwar stuff, even adjusting for the complexity.  Stated differently, I want the newer trains and features, but I want them engineered and built as well as possible.  With the number of problems I have experienced with recent vintage Lionel, as well as what I read here in terms of guys having issues with high end product, I think that quality standards need improvement.  Thus, I wouldn't expect a Vision Line Hudson to be as reliable as a 773 -- the 773 is a heck of a lot simpler so it should be more reliable -- but I don't expect it to have, for example, multiple issues within the first few years of ownership. 

 

Now, to be fair, Lionel Corporation, as well as Lionel MPC and Lionel Kughn, all had issues from time to time.  And it is difficult to have any sort of precise analysis simply because the data is not available.  That should not, however, give Lionel LLC an excuse (or MTH or Williams by Bachmann) for shoddy quality and long-delayed deliveries (to me, they are in many respects part of the same problem). 

 

I think the Berkshire in question here is an example of what happens when you build something as well as it can be reasonably built -- it was not a simple toy when it was made in the years after WWII, and yet here we are so many years later and it runs like a top.  That's what I want Lionel to do today, even adjusting for the greater complexity inherent to the higher end locomotives -- build to a standard, not to a price point.  My .02.