Those who think this hobby is dying, read this..

Great post.  I am with you.

Way to go!! 

Too many times people confuse shifting consumer patterns with the downfall of a particular consumer good. Can you find a lot of electronics stores? No. Are people still buying boat loads of TVs and computers? Yes. Sporting goods stores continue to close too. See Sports Authority. Are people not playing sports? Look, most goods are now supplied by a few mega retailers and online. Our great hobby has just been a little late to the party. This doesn't mean the hobby is dying. We are just changing our point of purchase. 

Let the good times continue to roll!!!

I never believed that the train hobby was dying, just that it is changing. Gone are MOST of the young people who once supported the hobby and entering are more middle age folks that will embrace the hobby . The WGHOT show is doing well to help promote the train hobby and introduce it to a new audience. There are some people that enter the hobby that embrace model trains as an art form as well.  Many will also inherit trains and carry the torch forward. The hobby will go on, maybe in a different form than today, but it will go on.

True. Gone are most of the young people who were into the hobby. However that is how the trainmasters started. Back in the late 90's a group of middle aged men wanted to make a 4-H train club with the idea that it would be an adult club. For most of its early years it was much like groups such as the Independent Hi-Railers or even Raritan Valley Hi-Railers. Somewhere along those lines kids started taking interest and joined. Now if this happened for a 4-H in New Jersey, whose to say it couldn't happen elsewhere? Even though this hobby is drastically changing (Maybe for the better) there will usually always be that small holdout of young people who will be ready to embrace the hobby.

Its always great to read a success / positive story. Thanks for posting!

bigtruckpete posted:

Way to go!! 

Too many times people confuse shifting consumer patterns with the downfall of a particular consumer good. Can you find a lot of electronics stores? No. Are people still buying boat loads of TVs and computers? Yes. Sporting goods stores continue to close too. See Sports Authority. Are people not playing sports? Look, most goods are now supplied by a few mega retailers and online. Our great hobby has just been a little late to the party. This doesn't mean the hobby is dying. We are just changing our point of purchase. 

Let the good times continue to roll!!!

I agree with your thinking. The pattern of how something is bought is shifting to online or web purchases as they are called by some. The old hobby shop is slowly dis-appearing and being replaced by large internet retailers(not sure if I am using the correct term). 

I am buying and selling online because it is easier and most of the prices and selection of products are better then in a conventional hobby shop.

Lee Fritz

Im there baby!!!

It's too bad the hobby shop is disappearing. Honestly I only go to hobby shops now for good deals on postwar and prewar items as well as ground scenery. However things like locomotives and cars can be bought cheaper elsewhere. We all know that this hobby is changing. We just have to change with it. Kind of like running TMCC without a lashup.

would like to see the rest of the Alaska Superliner consist ~!!!!!!!!!!!

I just spoke with my dad about this the other day.  He tells me, sarcastically that the O gauge hobby has been dying since 1963 when he brought out the Lionel from his youth to build my first Christmas layout

Above:

"this hobby is certainly not dying.. at least not in New Jersey…"

Seems that an awful lot of these "dying denials" come from NJ or model RR's who visit NJ.

Elsewhere? "Dying"? Not yet. "Shrinkage"? There has been, and continues to be, "shrinkage".

I do believe that the last buzzing e-unit, the last twirling big CAB-1 red knob, the last Hudson to turn a wheel in N. America...all this will take place in New Jersey. There must be a bunch of "us" there. Pennsylvania could probably give you a run for your money. Some other spots are busy, too.

But for most of us (I'm around 1500 miles from NJ) it's all too often...<crickets>.  

Interest comes and goes. Way back when, the slot car craze first hit and was largely responsible for dooming the HO (where I resided) model railroad mfgr. community. Much written about the demise of model railroading. A few years later the hobby was back and roaring along, albeit with a different emphasis: more R-T-R with complete model railroads (scenery, etc) and less and less model building. Has anyone checked recent issues of Model Railroader? Anyway, I see a similar shift in focus on O-gauge/O-scale, with more interest in R-T-R (see the Black Diamond videos) and less in actually building railroad models.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

It has come to my attention that too many people on this forum think or consider our beloved hobby a dying art. Those who have heard of the Somerset County 4-H Trainmasters would know that this hobby is certainly not dying.. at least not in New Jersey

Wow. You had a nice small train show, so that proves the hobby isn't declining from the time when every kid had a toy train?

That's a phenomenal leap to make between you having a good (small) show and the hobby not in any state of decline. I'm not sure what size blinders you're wearing there...

The hobby isn't dead, that's for sure, but I can't see how anyone in the hobby today can't see the inescapable fact that the hobby isn't as big as it was and has been in a slow decline, numbers-wise, since the start of space age. Big companies making model train stuff are going out of business, hobby shops are vanishing everywhere, clubs are watching their membership wither and die of old age as hardly any young people are joining anymore and most model trains shows are regularly being mistaken for AARP meetings.

The hobby isn't dying, I'll agree there. But it is in a state of decline. You can't escape or ignore that fact.

D500 posted:

Above:

"this hobby is certainly not dying.. at least not in New Jersey…"

Seems that an awful lot of these "dying denials" come from NJ or model RR's who visit NJ.

Elsewhere? "Dying"? Not yet. "Shrinkage"? There has been, and continues to be, "shrinkage".

I do believe that the last buzzing e-unit, the last twirling big CAB-1 red knob, the last Hudson to turn a wheel in N. America...all this will take place in New Jersey. There must be a bunch of "us" there. Pennsylvania could probably give you a run for your money. Some other spots are busy, too.

But for most of us (I'm around 1500 miles from NJ) it's all too often...<crickets>.  

Pennsylvania could definitely give us a run for our money. Lets face it, Pennsylvania has the most heritage and steam preservation in the eastern United States. I'm saying in terms of clubs where kids are being brought in, working and operating with postwar, prewar, and modern trains.. I can't think of anyone else than the trainmasters. Lets not forget all the other kids who are interested and just aren't united in one club.

Good to read. The Hobby is option 1. "Changing and evolving" not option 2. "dying and the sky is falling". I prefer option 1 to chicken little's option 2.

p51 posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

It has come to my attention that too many people on this forum think or consider our beloved hobby a dying art. Those who have heard of the Somerset County 4-H Trainmasters would know that this hobby is certainly not dying.. at least not in New Jersey

Wow. You had a nice small train show, so that proves the hobby isn't declining from the time when every kid had a toy train?

That's a phenomenal leap to make between you having a good (small) show and the hobby not in any state of decline. I'm not sure what size blinders you're wearing there...

The hobby isn't dead, that's for sure, but I can't see how anyone in the hobby today can't see the inescapable fact that the hobby isn't as big as it was and has been in a slow decline, numbers-wise, since the start of space age. Big companies making model train stuff are going out of business, hobby shops are vanishing everywhere, clubs are watching their membership wither and die of old age as hardly any young people are joining anymore and most model trains shows are regularly being mistaken for AARP meetings.

The hobby isn't dying, I'll agree there. But it is in a state of decline. You can't escape or ignore that fact.

Unfortunately your right. I do acknowledge the fact that the hobby is in a severe state of decline. Maybe the way I wrote my initial statement was that our club was "The Answer to the Hobby's Problems". Of course that is not at all the case and I didn't mean to make it out that way. What I'm saying is how many O scale clubs do you see that are completely operated by 30+ kids? Do we have shows where people barely attend? That answer is yes. Those images were at our June show, as well as a show at the Railroad Museum of PA. But take a show like this year's January show. We had our most successful show yet at 1100 people. That might not be much, but for a group of kids that showed their dedication to this hobby? I'd say it's pretty darn good. Our club's goal isn't to "bring back the entire model railroad community". No club or organization could ever accomplish that. Instead we're trying to assist these kids with their passion for railroads.

You guys have a great story!

Peter

 

What I'm saying is how many O scale clubs do you see that are completely operated by 30+ kids?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great what your group is doing, and more power to you guys!

But I do tire of people who post that everything is rosy in their neighborhood, so therefore they don't get people saying the hobby is declining overall when it isn't right where they are. The last time I saw that on another forum, the guy was saying that trains were still huge and interest hasn't waived on bit since the golden era of train travel.

Oh yeah, they guy almost lives within walking distance of the Strasburg RR and the RR museum of PA. You don't have to connect the dots to see that guy doesn't see it as he practically lives in a 'ground zero' of railfan interest!

Things change and a lot of people don't like that. I don't think the hobby is dying, but it is changing. People over react. I made a comment one time about not caring what Lionel does or doesn't do. A fellow responded by telling me I don't care if all the manufactures go out of business and the hobby dies. Over reacting.

Some people just aren't able to accept change. If the hobby is changing, then what is it becoming? I've heard several thoughts on this. One is that it is becoming a hobby for middle-aged men and older. This can't be because that change already happened several years ago.

Glad to hear you had a good show.

In talking about a dying hobby, the two train show numbers that would interest me would be: 1- the number of paid attendees, 2- the number of dollars spent per attendee.   Number 1 makes the train show profitable and number 2 makes the vendors profitable.  

I do know that attendance at the shows I frequent have drastically reduced in size or disappeared in the last 25 yrs.  Even at York, it used to be a struggle to go down the aisles, like being in a subway station at rush hour. Now I can walk freely and sometimes with no one else in the aisle.

However, I would still rather go to a tiny, dying train show like York with only 10,000 dedicated enthusiasts with average spending per attendee well over $100.00 each, compared to an all gauges show with 40,000 attendees spending an average of less than $5.00 each.

Is the hobby dying, probably not.  Is it shrinking, I think so.  Keep in mind that social media, video games and personal electronics are intensely more popular than trains with young people and require a fraction of the square footage and much lower cost.

RRRRFan4: It's very good to hear that the hobby is alive with a bunch of young people like yourselves. I applaud your efforts. I saw your group at the County fair last year. Great layout. The problem I see is that you guys are the only group of its kind (at least that I know of--and I follow O gauge very closely). The hobby needs more groups like yours in other parts of the country. A group or place like yours for kids to go and be creative outside of playing video games.

"It's too bad the hobby shop is disappearing."

I agree. I don't want to see the Hobby Shop go away. That's why I support my LHS whenever I can even if it means I have to pay a little more on a locomotive but unfortunately for most people the lower price is the better price even if it means buying a tool or something else from China instead of supporting the American worker.

"Honestly I only go to hobby shops now for good deals on postwar and prewar items as well as ground scenery. However things like locomotives and cars can be bought cheaper elsewhere."

And that's the reason why the hobby shops are closing.

You might be missing out on some stuff. My LHS is always taking on consignments. I never know what she will have when I stop by. Quite often I have gotten something unique there that I couldn't have gotten anywhere else. When Atlas came out with the RRRR 100 boxcar she broke up the four car set so I could get one. Yeah, the price was 10% off of retail (the LHS owner gives 10% off on pre-orders) but try finding that car at a train show today. One time she shipped a locomotive to Atlas with other stuff and I didn't have to pay to ship it back. Another time a locomotive came in damaged and she shipped that one back at her expense. Another time she contacted a manufacturer on my behalf and got the situation resolved. I always go to the LHS first and then if she doesn't have something or can't get something then I will go to the internet.

I don't think the hobby is changing. It's still scale or toy trains on track with or without scenery. Yes, the way people buy stuff has changed but people buying off the internet or mail order has been going on since I started in the hobby in the '70s.

I agree with p51 and D500. The hobby is shrinking all over the entire country. Maybe it is shrinking less in the northeast but I believe it is shrinking here too. Just not as noticeable as other parts of the country.

Hudson J1e posted:

I don't think the hobby is changing. It's still scale or toy trains on track with or without scenery. Yes, the way people buy stuff has changed but people buying off the internet or mail order has been going on since I started in the hobby in the '70s.

I agree with p51 and D500. The hobby is shrinking all over the entire country. Maybe it is shrinking less in the northeast but I believe it is shrinking here too. Just not as noticeable as other parts of the country.

It is shrinking over the entire country. If only more groups like mine existed. It wouldn't even have to be 4-H. Those on this forum who belong to modular groups can easily do this. Not only that but people in any era or scale can do this. Say you have a nephew or grandson. Bring them along to a show and teach them how to operate the trains. This gets the ball rolling for new enthusiasts. You were talking about your local hobby shop. Have you been to the Model Railroad Shop in Piscataway NJ? That's my local place. Right when you walk in behind the counter is this huge picture of a Raritan River SW900. (That picture EMD send to the Raritan River to confirm if the paint scheme was to their liking) It's the classic brick and mortar type model train shop. A nice selection of Lionel postwar and regrettably MPC..

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

It is shrinking over the entire country. If only more groups like mine existed.

You can look at almost any model RR group anywhere and the vast majority will be between 'well into middle age' to 'well beyond retirement age,' and that's just how it goes for those into the hobby enough to buy and run trains.

Yeah, you'll have the random teen or 20-something here and there, but many of them will be gone the moment they discover girls can be now be found and latched onto, and among those, many of them will never be coming back. That's inevitable.

Kids at train shows? They think it's 'cool' and they might even like trains for a while because it does appeal to a kid's mindset (bright, loud and FAST if it's three-rail), but how many people in the hobby today got there because of a train show 20-50 years ago? I wouldn't think many of us can point to a train show as what got us into the hobby. Heck, I was in my teens before I even knew mode train or train collectible shows even existed, as none were within 150 miles of where I grew up. I joined the first module group ever formed in my hometown as a founding member (and later had such a horrible set of experiences with them that I left the hobby in total disgust for many years), years after I realized I liked model trains. The bottom line; don't expect that 5-year-old kid going "ooh and ahh" at your Christmas show to be the club president in 20 years. Ain't gonna happen!

It's not just this hobby; you'd have to be blind not to see it. Ham radio. Stamp collecting. Model rockets. People have shifted their interests and it isn't just computer games doing it.

And it isn't the cost either, as several companies we thought would be around forever have been gone for years now, even among the HO crowd (which, let's face it, will probably always be the most popular scale), so buying their stuff cheaper online didn't help them either, did it? heck, Athearn's 'blue box' kits have been done for a few years now. Who'd have ever thought they'd see that? I contend that the blue box Athearn stuff was as much of a fixture of this hobby than anything with "Lionel" written on the side; more so maybe due to the larger numbers in the hobby into HO.

• The hobby is declining in terms or numbers of people in it, especially young ones
• Not as many young people will ever be in it as there used to be
• it's probably never going to be as affordable in the future than it is at this very moment

Now, all that said:

• The technology is getting better all the time
• As is the quality. How many N scalers, for example, say they wish they could buy the stuff they can get now, a good 10-20 years ago?
• It's easier than ever before to build a layout and make it look great. Don't decry the RTR painted/weathered stuff, be thankful that those items are pulling in people who might not have ever taken it up for the ability to have good looking stuff right out of the box!

It might be interesting to survey the entire field of miniatures: trains, airplanes, ships, militaria, rocketry, and so forth. Are they all healthy, or is interest declining across the board, not limited to miniature trains?

My single data point is my grandchildren. When they were young, but old enough not to slice an artery, I tried with several to get them to enjoy model-building, an activity that captivated me since early childhood*.  No luck at all. But they are all whizzes at video games, cell phones, and the like.

*My first experience, 1944, was a Strombecker War Spotters Model of a 1/72 scale B-26, in unforgiving white pine, to be glued together with casein glue. Miserable failure, but the fascination endured.

rex desilets posted:

It might be interesting to survey the entire field of miniatures: trains, airplanes, ships, militaria, rocketry, and so forth. Are they all healthy, or is interest declining across the board, not limited to miniature trains?

I'd like to know that, too. I was recently asked to be a judge for a (military) model contest but couldn't devote the time. I saw photos later and found that there wasn't hardly anyone entered who was younger than their 40s. I think there were only two entries in the young-modeler portion.

As for your Grandkids, you never know if years later, they might think back on your trains and take it up someday. It's unlikely but you never know how they'll react when they get older.

I can't get my grandchildren interested in the hobby either. The one grandkid out of 6 who likes trains a little bit but he never plays with them since he found out about video games. I built him a layout in his basement and it just gathers dust. 

It was awesome: a couple of months ago he was punished. No electronics. For four days whenever he was at my house all he wanted to do was play with the trains. We set up two loops of track on the floor. One HO and one O and at least for me we had a great time except when he wanted to play Addams Family. Last year I took two of the kids for a night at The Red Caboose motel in Strasburg. They really had a good time. At least they will have those memories. 

Phil, I also hear that the Thomas days at Strasburg are always a big hit with kids. As is the Thomas show on public TV.

rex desilets posted:

Phil, I also hear that the Thomas days at Strasburg are always a big hit with kids. As is the Thomas show on public TV.

Yes, and.....?

What kids STAY train fans due to Thomas? I know of none personally. Plenty of kids love it, when they're kids. I have two nephews who each loved Thomas as kids. Neither are train fans today.

I've noticed most kids who enjoy Thomas don't become fans of model railroads. However this can change. Forcing a kid to enjoy model railroading isn't possible. However you can help them along, give them a small loop of track and a transformer, engine and a few cars. Even getting them a Thomas set could work. My father remembered a time when everyone on his block had a Lionel train set. Most had O scale but some had HO.

p51 posted:

rex desilets posted:

Phil, I also hear that the Thomas days at Strasburg are always a big hit with kids. As is the Thomas show on public TV.

Yes, and.....?

What kids STAY train fans due to Thomas? I know of none personally. Plenty of kids love it, when they're kids. I have two nephews who each loved Thomas as kids. Neither are train fans today.

Now you know of one. I admit I dove into the hobby more because of Thomas. Because of it, I also maintain a Hornby layout with famous companies like LNER, GWR, LMS..

rex desilets posted:

Phil, I also hear that the Thomas days at Strasburg are always a big hit with kids. As is the Thomas show on public TV.

Rex, you are absolutely correct. We did that twice. My wife has niece and her son liked trains as a kid and even kept on liking trains to a small degree after reaching the video game age. We took her niece and her son plus two grandchildren to Thomas weekend at Strasburg. There were so many people there you can't park in the normal parking lot. You have to park down the street in a giant field and they bus you to the Railroad. We went on both the regular steam powered train ride and the Thomas powered train ride. Here's a pic of my wife's niece's son and my granddaughter.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Some people just aren't able to accept change. If the hobby is changing, then what is it becoming? I've heard several thoughts on this. One is that it is becoming a hobby for middle-aged men and older. This can't be because that change already happened several years ago.

I made the comment that model trains is now mainly a middle age persons hobby and let me tell you why. When I started in this hobby in 1979 most of the people at the train shows were in their 20's ,30's and 40's. Today most are in their 40's 50's 60's and 70's.  The hobby made this transformation a while ago. Now there is a possible scenario that might bring lots of young people in.  When the baby boom generation finally passes there will be millions of model trains on the market at bargain basement prices.  It just might be that this new low cost hobby will be discovered and taken up by young people. What we paid thousands for, young people will be buying for pennies. Who could resist a hobby cheaper than their iPhones?

If I were the father of my grandchildren and I had a regular job where I didn't have to work weekends and nights I would sign my grandson up as a member of the 4H Trainmasters. I think he would probably like it. He tends to get bored very easily at anything he does except video games but on the other hand he doesn't have any friends in his neighborhood. Her might make some friends there and that would be great.

p51, Lee if I may, I can't believe the percentage of kids that get into Thomas and then stick with trains is zero. However, I do agree with you that it is a very small percentage. Having said that I would still rather have the thousands upon thousands of children go through "The Thomas Stage" and get that little exposure to trains then not go through it. It certainly can't hurt and it really, really helps out places like Strasburg financially.

I believe that it is a fact that a very large percentage of the parents of these children who like Thomas are not interested in trains. Thus when the child enters the video game age do they buy the child a video game console or a train set? The train set might require adult supervision or help in something they (the adults) are not interested in. The video game console is not only cheaper but they can let the child play unattended while they do other things.

I could imagine most parents would rather their kids be playing with some mindless video game than with model trains.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

I could imagine most parents would rather their kids be playing with some mindless video game than with model trains.

That and smart phones. Most "young people" (under 40) I've watched always seem to be texting of talking on their smart phones. It is VERY common in our area to see a group of middle school to high school aged kits walking along and EVERY SINGEL ONE is texting! What with our fast-paced society and instant gratification, they probably don't have time for model trains, planes, boats, nor vehicles.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

 

When the baby boom generation finally passes there will be millions of model trains on the market at bargain basement prices.  It just might be that this new low cost hobby will be discovered and taken up by young people. What we paid thousands for, young people will be buying for pennies. Who could resist a hobby cheaper than their iPhones?

I don't think so. I don't think that price alone will bring people into the hobby. Right now folks can buy all the old HO they want and I don't see that bringing any new blood into the hobby. At every show I see nice boxcars for $5 or less and junkers for $2 or $3. I see locomotives for $20 to $25 and with HO they will require less space for a layout and more stuff is available than O gauge. And if you look hard enough you can find Lionel postwar and older (modern) Lionel and MTH and pretty good prices. Although not as cheap as old HO but a lot less costly than buying brand new trains at retail. Yet even though these bargains are out there I don't see that bringing anyone into the hobby. No Dennis, price alone won't do it.  The interest in railroading  must be there and then lower prices will certainly help.

I can think of other hobbies cheaper than trains but I have no interest in them. Even it were less than $10 to me that would be $10 out of my train budget.

Hudson J1e posted:

  The interest in railroading  must be there and then lower prices will certainly help.

 

That's hitting the nail on the head.

Rusty