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Thoughts on Legacy Smoke Unit Fan Motor Failures..

D&H 65D&H 65OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

About a year ago, there seemed to be a rash of posts concerning fan motor failures on Lionel Legacy smoke units. Thats has seemed to die-down this year, but an interesting event yesterday caused me to ponder some of these "failures"..

Yesterday I decided to run my Legacy UP DD35; I removed it from the shelf, installed on the layout and powered it up. The engine started normally, and then I activated the smoke function. This unit has two separate smoke units; only the front one started smoking and then I noticed the dreaded legacy "three lite-blinks of death" from the cab overhead lighting. The engine operated normally otherwise, but it just looked stupid running around flashing "Legacy code".

With nothing better to do, I decided to open it up and investigate. The engine had worked with both smoke units operational the last time I had run it, so I was interested in finding why it died on the shelf. Once the shell was removed, I only noted a hint of smoke fluid on the sheet metal frame at the base of the two posts that mount the smoke units. My first attempt at resuscitation was to remove the PC board atop the smoke unit and check internally for anything obvious. Nothing jumped out at me visually ( I did note Lionel has finally stopped putting the "wrap' around the resistor, which meant I didn't have to cut that off....), so I removed the fan impeller and oiled the top fan motor bearing. Once I had the smoke unit back together, I put the chassis back on the track and re-powered the unit for a test. Once powered up, it still did not smoke and I still had the three flashes of death from the cab lights.

I next elected to swap the front and rear identical smoke units and tried again. This time the front unit did not work (formerly the rear). I next elected to remove the fan motor; after having success previously with this method, I dunked the motor in some 91% isopropyl alcohol, being carefull to not dunk the bottom bearing in the alcohol, just the "top' half of the motor. I then shook the motor to eliminate the alcohol residue. After drying for five minutes, I hit the motor briefly with a 9 volt battery to see if it would run now and it did respond and run again. With the motor now running again, I re-installed it in the smoke unit and re-oiled the top bearing prior to re-installing the impeller. I buttoned the unit up and re-installed the shell. It has run each time I've tried since and the three lights of death have extinguished .

One thing I noted is the smoke fluid chamber is about half the size of the bowl used previously on all the TMCC units. The TMCC smoke units usually will take 20 to 25 drops to make them function "normally". The newer Legacy smoke units have smaller bowls; I suspect a lot of the previously reported "failures" are actually motors that have been flooded by unsuspecting over-servicing due to our previous "history" servicing our TMCC locos.

My recommendation is no more than ten drops when servicing a Legacy smoke unit; see if you have fewer problems with fan motor "failures".....

Last edited by D&H 65
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gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

There have been a number of different failures of smoke units, I sent some to Jon Z. at Lionel for his evaluation, he found some required excessive current and other issues.

 

I agree that many can be cleaned up and reused, however I find it easier to replace them with the MTH fan motor.  I haven't had any issues with the MTH motors, and they've been used in a number of replacements for my stuff as well as other folks.

 

I believe that Lionel was changing manufacturers of the motor to resolve the issues, but maybe they're just beating the current manufacturer into submission.  In any case, I don't think this was just an overfilling issue, and I'm pretty sure that Lionel is addressing the issue.

chipsetchipsetOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by gunrunnerjohn:

There have been a number of different failures of smoke units, I sent some to Jon Z. at Lionel for his evaluation, he found some required excessive current and other issues.

 

I agree that many can be cleaned up and reused, however I find it easier to replace them with the MTH fan motor.  I haven't had any issues with the MTH motors, and they've been used in a number of replacements for my stuff as well as other folks.

 

I believe that Lionel was changing manufacturers of the motor to resolve the issues, but maybe they're just beating the current manufacturer into submission.  In any case, I don't think this was just an overfilling issue, and I'm pretty sure that Lionel is addressing the issue.

Time to bring manufacturing elsewhere.

gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by cjack:

What's the MTH number on those motors? I've tried to use MTH web site and it's never worked for me. Is there an MTH parts site other than MTH? I have emailed MTH various times, etc. and no response. I guess I could call them, but then I wouldn't be able to complain

The standard MTH motor is BE-0000041, that's the one I keep lots of stock of.

 

H Hancock52OGR Forum Member

My 2 cents worth:

 

I have one Legacy and one Vision engine that have smoke unit "buzz" and one is a steamer (UP 9000) and the other is the original Vision GE Evo. The latter was my only completely dependable, problem-free Vision Line engine until it developed an annoying squeal when the smoke unit fires up. I put that down to overfilling with smoke fluid (and the model sitting on the display shelf for some months), which I understand can affect the bearings/impeller but I'll gladly be corrected if I am wrong. I'm loathe to open this engine up although it is long out of warranty. I have got some Megasmoke "Eliminator" and I will try that before I think of trying to service the fan motor as I understand that this product can help clear up minor fan issues.

 

The steamer could probably benefit from the treatment Eric Siegel posted a video about but again taking it apart is pretty daunting. 

SH Southwest HiawathaOGR Forum Member

I don't know about the 9000, I don't have one of those, but the Milwaukee Road S-3 Northern is said to be a real nightmare to take apart. According to multiple posts on the forum, all kinds of things are in the way, including the cab figures. I've never had too much trouble opening up a Lionel engine, but some of my brass Weaver and 3rd Rail engines have been, shall we say, more than challenging. Getting the smoke unit out of a 3rd Rail 4-12-2 isn't fun.

B BReeceOGR Forum Member

I have a VL Hudson, the whistle steam smoke works now and then. I ran the engine for about 30 minutes yesterday and the whistle steam smoke started working and was working a few minutes ago  but nothing like the trains I see posted on this forum . If I add a few drops of fluid when the engine is cold, it will take the whistle steam 15-20 minutes to start smoking if it starts at all. It is a hit and miss sort of thing, I have quit worrying about it. Yes I do the blowing to pop the bubble.

 

Brent

H Hancock52OGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by BReece:

I have a VL Hudson, the whistle steam smoke works now and then. I ran the engine for about 30 minutes yesterday and the whistle steam smoke started working and was working a few minutes ago  but nothing like the trains I see posted on this forum . If I add a few drops of fluid when the engine is cold, it will take the whistle steam 15-20 minutes to start smoking if it starts at all. It is a hit and miss sort of thing . . .

 

It really bothers me when VL engines don't work as advertised or as I have seen other people's do in videos. Regrading anaemic smoke production, it should not take 15-20 minutes to get any smoke unit properly heated. I wonder about cranking up the voltage to the tracks, which is something suggested on another thread, or whether the AC regulator that controls power to the smoke unit is defective or the unit's PCB is. I think that generally whistle smoke units are meant to heat up fast but hold at a reduced temperature when the feature is not in use. There's plenty of scope in that for the settings/electronics to go wrong.

J jojofryOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by BReece:

I have a VL Hudson, the whistle steam smoke works now and then. I ran the engine for about 30 minutes yesterday and the whistle steam smoke started working and was working a few minutes ago  but nothing like the trains I see posted on this forum . If I add a few drops of fluid when the engine is cold, it will take the whistle steam 15-20 minutes to start smoking if it starts at all. It is a hit and miss sort of thing, I have quit worrying about it. Yes I do the blowing to pop the bubble.

 

Brent

The smoking whistle on the visionline  hudson is tuff to get the fluid down in there once you figure it out it smokes great. I remove the whistle I hold my finger over the smoking hole and then I put about 8 drops in there seems a lot but it's not.. Then I use a tube like a wd40 tube and blow it down into the unit and them it's works great and I usually get several runs before I have to refill. Note some will come out the main hole but it works .

J jojofryOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Hancock52:
Originally Posted by BReece:

I have a VL Hudson, the whistle steam smoke works now and then. I ran the engine for about 30 minutes yesterday and the whistle steam smoke started working and was working a few minutes ago  but nothing like the trains I see posted on this forum . If I add a few drops of fluid when the engine is cold, it will take the whistle steam 15-20 minutes to start smoking if it starts at all. It is a hit and miss sort of thing . . .

 

It really bothers me when VL engines don't work as advertised or as I have seen other people's do in videos. Regrading anaemic smoke production, it should not take 15-20 minutes to get any smoke unit properly heated. I wonder about cranking up the voltage to the tracks, which is something suggested on another thread, or whether the AC regulator that controls power to the smoke unit is defective or the unit's PCB is. I think that generally whistle smoke units are meant to heat up fast but hold at a reduced temperature when the feature is not in use. There's plenty of scope in that for the settings/electronics to go wrong.

All mine work like they should big smoke and all but I use a lot of fluid in mine ..

Last edited by jojofry
CW Craig Willard/Willard AnimationsOGR Forum Member

I have been told after servicing by a Lionel authorized service station that my Vision Line Hudson is not smoking (main smoke unit) because of a bad smoke unit PCB.  They say there is power to the unit but the PCB is dead.  It uses a horizontal mounted fan motor.  This part is apparently unavailable!  These are the technicians words.  I am leary of taking this shell off because of the moving bell, 2 smoke units and all the delicate parts.  This 6-11209 has extremely little run time on it.  Any help would be hugely appreciated.  I really wanted to run this for the holidays but the repair guys held it since late July.

Thanks for any help!

cjackcjackOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

The only PCB unavailable contains the smoke resistor and little else. There may be some active part on it, but it's not clear from the picture. Does it have the 5 VDC fan regulator on it which is readily available as a part from electronic houses?

Hopefully someone with experience on this engine will respond, but the first step would be to take the shell off and look it over. Did the tech have the shell off?

gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

The smoke units are actually controlled from the RCMC, and that's available.  I don't think there's anything that would fail on that PCB, other than perhaps the smoke resistor.  Pretty sure the 4-pin connector just brings power the the smoke fan and to the smoke heater.  The smoke fan connects near the back edge if I recall this one correctly.

Personally, I think you need to consult a different tech.  It can't be difficult to determine what is going on if the power is getting to the board.  Top suspect would be the resistor, and that's a standard 8 ohm resistor, I'm sure Lionel has those or there are many substitutes for them as well.

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CW Craig Willard/Willard AnimationsOGR Forum Member
gunrunnerjohn posted:

The smoke units are actually controlled from the RCMC, and that's available.  I don't think there's anything that would fail on that PCB, other than perhaps the smoke resistor.  Pretty sure the 4-pin connector just brings power the the smoke fan and to the smoke heater.  The smoke fan connects near the back edge if I recall this one correctly.

Personally, I think you need to consult a different tech.  It can't be difficult to determine what is going on if the power is getting to the board.  Top suspect would be the resistor, and that's a standard 8 ohm resistor, I'm sure Lionel has those or there are many substitutes for them as well.

Thanks for your fast reply.  As I looked at the parts breakdown I thought that they were on the wrong track.  (sorry for the horrible pun).  Do you have any suggestion where I can send it to a good reliable Lionel repair center?  I was thinking Hennings but an just not sure.  I'd appreciate any guidance as I know you are very experienced and want someone experienced and trustworthy. 

Thank you again! 

John RowlenJohn RowlenOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

For what it's worth, my recently repaired NEW 6-82461 CSX F40PH #9999 that just returned from Lionel Service, is going back because the smoke motor seems to have stopped working.  I have the call tag from Katie. 

Service also forgot to work to ease the opening of the roof hatch.  I sanded my hatch edge at 45-degrees to remove the drag/thickness of the roof panel sides that were binding. The beveled roof underside no longer binds.  I sanded so I could still see blue paint when I placed it back on the engine.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

S SantaFeFanOGR Forum Member
gunrunnerjohn posted:

I believe they just measure current, I don't think they've advanced to measuring torque.   We did have a little discussion on measuring back-EMF of the smoke motors, but it's not currently done by the Legacy boards.

Actually the back-EMF is measured, not the current.   I did review the motors GRJ sent me, and they failed for various reasons.  My belief was the permanent magnets (field) were weak on many of them.  Also some had the brushes coated with fluid residue, which was clearly not good.  

In some of my locomotives that failed, the smoke fluid gummed up the top bearing and the fan could not spin.   Later generation RCMC boards stopped checking the motor, and so no flashing is done.  The motor can still fail, but no flash will happen.  

BTW, I you turn off the smoke switch, the flashing is turned off as well.  

Last edited by SantaFeFan
gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Thanks for chiming in Jon, if anyone knows, it would be you!

Jon, what was the rational of not checking the smoke motor in the later RCMC boards?  I would be concerned that the motor stalling may damage the motor driver, is this not a concern?  I know stalling or shorted drive motors can take out the CC-Lite and the RCMC, I've experienced both, so having protection seemed like a good thing to me.

S SantaFeFanOGR Forum Member
gunrunnerjohn posted:

Thanks for chiming in Jon, if anyone knows, it would be you!

Jon, what was the rational of not checking the smoke motor in the later RCMC boards?  I would be concerned that the motor stalling may damage the motor driver, is this not a concern?  I know stalling or shorted drive motors can take out the CC-Lite and the RCMC, I've experienced both, so having protection seemed like a good thing to me.

The motor driver is capable of handling a stalled motor without damage.  The reason to stop the checks and stop flashing was because the flashing annoyed folks.  

MartyEMartyEOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBERMEMORIAL SUPPORTER
SantaFeFan posted:

The motor driver is capable of handling a stalled motor without damage.  The reason to stop the checks and stop flashing was because the flashing annoyed folks.  

I think the failing motors were annoying folks more but I guess they go hand in hand.  I agree with John though you knew where to go but those blinks did get your blood pressure up.  LOL!

superwarp1superwarp1OGR Forum Member
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Originally Posted by cjack:

What's the MTH number on those motors? I've tried to use MTH web site and it's never worked for me. Is there an MTH parts site other than MTH? I have emailed MTH various times, etc. and no response. I guess I could call them, but then I wouldn't be able to complain

The standard MTH motor is BE-0000041, that's the one I keep lots of stock of.

 

Anyone ever figure out who the manufacturer is of these?  Maybe you can be purchased on Ebay for cheaper.  I know that subject has been brought up before.  Don't want to put something in my engine that's going to fail soon after.

gunrunnerjohngunrunnerjohnOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

There are many motors on eBay that are bolt-in matches.  As you say, until someone bites the bullet and does some long term testing, you don't know what the results would be.  FWIW, I bought several different styles and did some bench testing.  One of the batches had motors that were all over the map with current draw, from around 50ma to over 150ma!  Those are in a landfill somewhere now.   The other batch looked a bit more promising, the motors were drawing 30-35ma and seemed to be compatible.  I still have a couple in my parts box, and I have one of them in a steamer.  Unfortunately, until I finally get my benchwork and layout going, it doesn't get much running time, so it's not exactly an exhaustive test.

RickM46RickM46OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER

After I had drown the fan motors in my new Lionel AC-9 last year (no blinking cab light), the Lionel tech replaced both DC fan motors with Mabuchi FF-N20PN-08260's; part number 6108057210.

In some previous post somewhere on the forum, the following was suggested: an alternative fan motor is the Mabuchi FF-N20PA-10190 which spins 4000? rpms but has double the starting current (54mA) of the 08260 (27mA) .  May/may not throw a 3 blink error code in legacy engines.

Last edited by RickM46
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