@pd: Hey your engine matches mine! Nothing on the boiler side near the boiler front and "401" under the cab window. Note the curly q coupler on the tender. Thanks for posting
Don
Since we are posting photos of Set 301, here is mine, although I am not positive about it being set 301 due to the gunmetal gray 401 engine with nickel trim and the streamline tender, which is unusual due to it not having the more common billboard type decal, but rather 2 smaller decals per side. I note that the set also has 2 coaches and no baggage. However, it is as found and although it has no boxes, it is in nicely matched condition,
Below it is Set 1 from 1938 with hook couplers and above it is set 303 with blue cars (with an extra coach) with curly q couplers.
NWL
NWL : I would refer you to Schuwiler's book, pgs 72-73 for what he calls the Type XII tender and pgs 94-95 for a rather lengthy discussion on the Type XX or 401 locomotive. Too long to quote here, but the key item might be that he mentions the 401 went uncataloged in 36 & 37 and when it returned to the catalog in 1938 it was GREY like yours. He then states that the locomotive returned to black in 1939. There is quite a lot of variability in this engine over these late 30's years and Schuwiler takes a number of paragraphs to try and describe the chronological order of things. To me, such a number of changes speaks to the possibility of quite a number of variations showing up in sets as they were sold, sometimes perhaps even by the dealers at the point of sale. OBTW beautiful 301 sets, I really loved the blue one.
Just to make matters even more confusing, I have a Type XX loco which appears to date from 1935 but it is a 2-4-0 vice 2-4-4 and has a huge whistle mounted on the back of the motor that basically fills up the cab!
Don
@Don McErlean posted:NWL : I would refer you to Schuwiler's book, pgs 72-73 for what he calls the Type XII tender and pgs 94-95 for a rather lengthy discussion on the Type XX or 401 locomotive. Too long to quote here, but the key item might be that he mentions the 401 went uncataloged in 36 & 37 and when it returned to the catalog in 1938 it was GREY like yours. He then states that the locomotive returned to black in 1939. There is quite a lot of variability in this engine over these late 30's years and Schuwiler takes a number of paragraphs to try and describe the chronological order of things. To me, such a number of changes speaks to the possibility of quite a number of variations showing up in sets as they were sold, sometimes perhaps even by the dealers at the point of sale. OBTW beautiful 301 sets, I really loved the blue one.
Just to make matters even more confusing, I have a Type XX loco which appears to date from 1935 but it is a 2-4-0 vice 2-4-4 and has a huge whistle mounted on the back of the motor that basically fills up the cab!
Don
Don,
Technically, only one of the sets may be a 301 set. The red set with 4 cars and the 4603 is Set 1 from 1938 and the blue set with 417 locomotive is set 303 from 1939.
I do have a gray 4603 (that would be the correct number for a 401 type loco in 1938) engine, but it has decals on it, with no actual numbering and copper trim. The gray 4603 engine is with my 1938 set 1. The gray 4603 has the streamline type tender, with billboard stripe on it. My gray 401 engine is lettered 401 (on the side not pictured) and has the nickel trim, similar to the black 401 engines. That points to my motor actually being from 1939 or later, as the engines were not numbered in 1938. I have seen a couple of the gray 401 engines sell and they are somewhat difficult to find.
The whistle in the type XX locomotive is likely one of the uncataloged variations from 1936 or 1937. I know that I have a number of these motors with the whistles, as well as some of the cheap Hiawatha locos with whistles.
Here is a picture of the other side of the 401, note the 401 lettering below the cab window.
Here is a picture of the gray 4603, note the copper trim and decals
Here is the 417 locomotive that heads up Set 303 with the blue cars
NWL
Oh well, in for a penny in for a pound.... Here's my 1938 Set #1 - it is a boxed set and has everything listed in the catalog illustration.
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Here is a newly restored American Flyer Wide Gauge 4672 running. Sadly, this engine has been apart for years. I finally painted it in the summer of 2020 and it sat for another year, before I took it to a friend to re-assemble. A shout out to Rob English for making some of the steel linkage parts that are attached to the steam chest.
NWL
NWL : Beautiful 4672 and it seems to run well and smoothly as well. I have a few std gauge sets (3 Lionel and 1 AF) but no where to run them as I have no room for a std gauge loop. I was wondering however, behind the 4672 in the last picture is a small black steamer with what appears to be red wheels pulling a green baggage car / coaches...what is that?
Thanks,
Don
@Nation Wide Lines posted:Today we are running a c. 1930 Montgomery Ward uncataloged American Flyer set with 3195 engine, Hancock tender, and Illini cars.
The engine last ran in the late 1990s and has been in a box or on a shelf ever since. I had the engine re-wheeled by someone else in the late 90s and it was sub-par work. Problem was a replaced axle that had sub-par splines, which resulted in the wheels slipping on the axle and super-glue being applied to try and get the wheels to not slip. I replaced the axle with no splines and the 2 drive wheels. I hate sub-par work, but when I first got into prewar Flyer, I did not do my own repairs. I quickly realized it was too expensive to have others do the work for me and began doing my own repairs.
To answer Don's question about the small engine-tender and green cars behind the 4672, it is the above set. I just was not running it today.
As for the wheel color on the engine, Flyer painted some of their wheels orange and this engine originally had the orange drive wheels on it, so the replacements are orange as well.
NWL
NWL: Thanks, I guess I didn't recognize that guy from your prior post. I have been looking at a "Hummer" engine and tender and wondered if that was the same (it isn't)...runs great now though.
Don
@Don McErlean posted:NWL: Thanks, I guess I didn't recognize that guy from your prior post. I have been looking at a "Hummer" engine and tender and wondered if that was the same (it isn't)...runs great now though.
Don
Don,
There would be no electric hummer engines. The hummer line was all windups. Hummer engines also would have only pulled very small cars.
NWL
Hummer !
(nothing new again this week ... Bummer! )
Just sticking my nose in here to bookmark my return. Some of you may have been wondering who was "Liking" your posts from 6 months ago that was me catching up after a long hiatus. The way my brain is wired I felt obliged to to scrutinize each and every post I had missed to earn my way back in with the Tinplate Gang. Tons of good stuff you guys have ! Happy to be back.
@G-Man24 posted:Just sticking my nose in here to bookmark my return. Some of you may have been wondering who was "Liking" your posts from 6 months ago that was me catching up after a long hiatus. The way my brain is wired I felt obliged to to scrutinize each and every post I had missed to earn my way back in with the Tinplate Gang. Tons of good stuff you guys have ! Happy to be back.
Hi, G-Man24! It's good to hear from you!
Dare we hope that you made progress on your layout during the hiatus?
Welcome Back! G-Man 24 !!
Don
Fatman / NWL : NWL, I embarrassingly did actually know that all the Hummer engines were clockwork, I just had a "senior moment" when I saw your 3195 and forgot that when I asked the question about that engine on the layout. However the info you provided on that little guy will not go wasted...it will be filed away for future hunt items so Thank you again!
To both of you...I just could not resist the Hummer engine and tender on e-bay and went for it. The pictures make it look just like yours Fatman and I also purchased a tender. This tender has an interesting lithograph pattern on it and has the number "513" in a rectangle on the side and the words..."The Hummer" over a spreadeagled bird on the rear. I will post pictures when they arrive.
Best wishes to you both.
Don
@palallin posted:...Dare we hope that you made progress on your layout during the hiatus?
Ashamed to admit it, but minimal progress at best. Hope to change that in the next couple weeks.
@Don McErlean posted:Welcome Back! G-Man 24 !!
Don
Good to see you again Don, always enjoy your posts.
So desperate to be relevant am I, that I'm posting some tinplate that is not even mine. My friend is emptying out the house he grew up in after the passing of his dad and he asked if I could list some stuff on that auction site for him. He was bringing me old board games and ashtrays and bottles and I said "you got any good stuff ? you know....slot cars, model trains, hot wheels , stuff like that...? He said "I was gonna throw that junk out !" 
So the next time I saw him he had a trunk full of pretty good stuff including this old Marx Tales of Wells Fargo train set. I'm guessing it's "S" guage ?.. unfortunately the Locomotive is missing but the lithographed buildings are pretty neat and the rail cars are nice especially the No.1 baggage car.
Anyway, thought you guys might enjoy seeing it, the graphics on the front and inside of the building are a hoot.
.
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@G-Man24 I found one of the carriages ages ago and the William Crookes Set has been on my radar since then!
What a pity it doesnt have the loco ...It should go for a price that might surprise you nevertheless 
Mine is in a crappy condition compared to your friends , but its such a departure from "regular" Marx I had to bring it home ( it wuz cheep!)
G-Man24: that play/trainset is O! it is obviously not complete, but the pieces there will make some Marx collector VERY happy! They are in very good condition! CTT ran an article about these pieces many years ago; if you want, I can try to dig it out.
Actually it came with a deal I got from the UK .. I figured as I was paying shipping anyway.... 
@palallin posted:G-Man24: that play/trainset is O! it is obviously not complete, but the pieces there will make some Marx collector VERY happy! They are in very good condition! CTT ran an article about these pieces many years ago; if you want, I can try to dig it out.
Found it! CTT June 1992, pg. 76. Do you have access to it?
GMan24: that Marx “William Crooks” set with the box etc is quite valuable. The bldgs are splendid and even more rare. Auction site for that one for sure!! Loco does turn up occasionally but even without it it’s a valuable piece.
Best of luck
Don
@palallin posted:Found it! CTT June 1992, pg. 76. Do you have access to it?
Is there an online link to view it or you need the hard copy ?
I have the copy sitting next to me on my desk. Do *you* need a copy? I know of no online copy, but I can scan and email (the issue is long out of print).
@palallin posted:I have the copy sitting next to me on my desk. Do *you* need a copy? I know of no online copy, but I can scan and email (the issue is long out of print).
I certainly appreciate the offer and if I were keeping them for myself I'd accept but since I'm just selling these I don't want to put you through the trouble. Thank you though.
By the time I caught this reply, i already had the pages scanned, so I went ahead and emailed it to you. I hope doing so was not too presumptuous. Maybe it will help get max value for you friend if buyers ask you any questions.
@palallin posted:By the time I caught this reply, i already had the pages scanned, so I went ahead and emailed it to you. I hope doing so was not too presumptuous. Maybe it will help get max value for you friend if buyers ask you any questions.
I got the scans Steve, very interesting and fun read. Thanks so much I will pass them along to my friend.
Scott Smith
@Fatman posted:@G-Man24 I found one of the carriages ages ago and the William Crookes Set has been on my radar since then!
@Don McErlean posted:GMan24: that Marx “William Crooks” set with the box etc is quite valuable.
I have to admit when you guys were calling it William Crooks I was confused. A quick Google search and I realized that Marx had re-branded the set as "Tales of Wells Fargo" I also see the same set was marketed as "Pioneer Old Fashioned Train Set".
Then I remembered a broken piece of plastic that was in the bottom of the box of stuff. It said Wm. Cro..... but it didn't look like it broke off the Wells Fargo tender so I had no idea where it came from. Now it all makes sense...
I'm afraid it also answers what happed to the Locomotive, apparently it met an unceremonious demise.
.
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One of the Ives 3251s recently returned to running order is this Series 3 version:
A strong runner, it's pretty battered in its current form, to the extent it's missing a door on one side and the bell is long gone. While I'm long past a time where I wanted things to be pristine, I'm seriously thinking of giving this a refurb, i.e. a strip and repaint after a bit of straightening and dent removal. It never occurred to me that the cab doors on these things were a separate piece of metal soldered into place.
PD
Ok Tinplate fans, today I am offering something quite different. It is an engine from my small collection of lithographed tin toys. This is a Diesel Switcher (Road type switcher of the GP type) by Masudaya of Japan. This is a brute! It is 17" long, 4" high (not including the horns) and 3 1/2 " wide. It does have flanged wheels and the gauge is 2 1/2 " that is 3/4" larger than "G" gauge. IAW the box this toy has..."mystery action" (whatever that is), realistic whistle (for a diesel?), engine sound, and headlight. It is powered by 3 "D" batteries. This dates from the 1960's which was a golden era in Japanese lithographed tin plate and I think you will agree they did a marvelous job on this item. I also liked the slogan of the manufacturer...it was printed on the box..." For the Children of the World from...Masudaya" Their trademark by the way, which you may recognize from other toys is "TM" in a diamond shaped logo.
Here she is with her box from the side. The "N?W" notation is either N&W perhaps meaning Norfolk and Western or NEW just meaning that it was new. I cannot really interpret the stylized "E" between the N and W.
View from the front quarter showing the "headlight" and the multi-color lithography
Here from the rear or end of the long hood,
A couple of top views showing that the lithography continues on all sides plus add on fans , Horn, and vent
The side of the box ...by the way the caution reads..."Ages 3 and Up" luckily I qualify.
I included the close up of the cab area to illustrate the quality of the lithography done in Japan at this time. Multiple colors, peoples faces, rivets, stripping, vents (in two colors),treads etc. Quite elaborate.
Well its strange, not exactly a common toy train maker but it is tinplate! Best wishes
Don
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Nice engine Don, looks very good. Since a long time I was thinking to get one and install a Lionel Standard Gauge BAL motor on. Not sure if it could be done but there must be a lot of space in the inside.... a sort of never made fun loco....
Very best, Daniel
@Don McErlean posted:Ok Tinplate fans, today I am offering something quite different. It is an engine from my small collection of lithographed tin toys. This is a Diesel Switcher (Road type switcher of the GP type) by Masudaya of Japan. This is a brute! It is 17" long, 4" high (not including the horns) and 3 1/2 " wide. It does have flanged wheels and the gauge is 2 1/2 " that is 3/4" larger than "G" gauge. IAW the box this toy has..."mystery action" (whatever that is), realistic whistle (for a diesel?), engine sound, and headlight. It is powered by 3 "D" batteries. This dates from the 1960's which was a golden era in Japanese lithographed tin plate and I think you will agree they did a marvelous job on this item. I also liked the slogan of the manufacturer...it was printed on the box..." For the Children of the World from...Masudaya" Their trademark by the way, which you may recognize from other toys is "TM" in a diamond shaped logo.
Here she is with her box from the side. The "N?W" notation is either N&W perhaps meaning Norfolk and Western or NEW just meaning that it was new. I cannot really interpret the stylized "E" between the N and W.
View from the front quarter showing the "headlight" and the multi-color lithography
Here from the rear or end of the long hood,
A couple of top views showing that the lithography continues on all sides plus add on fans , Horn, and vent
The side of the box ...by the way the caution reads..."Ages 3 and Up" luckily I qualify.
I included the close up of the cab area to illustrate the quality of the lithography done in Japan at this time. Multiple colors, peoples faces, rivets, stripping, vents (in two colors),treads etc. Quite elaborate.
Well its strange, not exactly a common toy train maker but it is tinplate! Best wishes
Don
I would love to stuff a STD Gauge motor in one of those😜🤪
Steve
Daniel / Steve : Thanks for your comments. I agree, putting a std gauge motor into an engine like this would be fun. There is no doubt that there is room in the body for anything you might need and the gauge is not too far already from the 2 1/4 " of Standard Gauge.
Don
@Don McErlean posted:Daniel / Steve : Thanks for your comments. I agree, putting a std gauge motor into an engine like this would be fun. There is no doubt that there is room in the body for anything you might need and the gauge is not too far already from the 2 1/4 " of Standard Gauge.
Don
Do the trucks/wheel sets swivel? or would one have to heavily modify the frame?
NWL
NWL : No the truck frames swivel. Moving in a curve is part of the "mystery action" listed on the box. The gauge is wrong by about 1/4" from std gauge although the wheel sets are flanged.
Don
Lovely pickup Don ... these pieces from Masudaya are works of art !
The trademark can be confusing as it stands for Trade Mark, Modern Toys... lol so its an initial for both but mainly abbreviated to Modern Toys (MT)
@Don McErlean posted:
Don
That's a beautiful piece Don, love the lithography!
This is the type of thing I had in mind when I asked if anyone was interested in a tinplate first or second generation diesel in O gauge. I think a tinplate gp9 would be cool.
Fatman / jhz563 : Thanks for your comments on my Masudaya. Trademark is certainly confusing but appreciate the information. jhz...I would agree, a lithograph GP type diesel in 0 gauge would be really neat. The flat sides would give you plenty of room to make the design and the colorful liveries of the past would make for a neat engine.
Best Wishes
Don
@Don McErlean posted:Fatman / jhz563 : Thanks for your comments on my Masudaya. Trademark is certainly confusing but appreciate the information. jhz...I would agree, a lithograph GP type diesel in 0 gauge would be really neat. The flat sides would give you plenty of room to make the design and the colorful liveries of the past would make for a neat engine.
Best Wishes
Don
If you search ebay, you will find that they also made an identical engine in the Santa Fe livery.
NWL : Will take a look might have to add another? Don
Bad News @Don McErlean !!!!
I found another livery of these which I have never seen before ... on a Dutch Marketplaas lol
Just fresh from an attic in France this little 240 loco made by JEP. It was the entry level model in electric from 1933-37 and has seen many variations. It has no reverse so forward only and the matching cars are simple for passengers and classic JEP for freight sets. It can be found with different types of tenders, piping on the loco, with or without front lights depending of the type of current used, only low voltage of 20v have a front light. Couplers may also be of several types.
Those little locos are not very sought after and under appreciated by JEP collectors even if they could be fun to search and not expensive. They where also made in clockwork so a lot of variations to discover....
Here are some different ones with their sets,
Daniel
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Daniel : The JEP loco's are neat and I have not seen them before except in some book pictures. I like the little ones myself, because it think it likely that because they were cheaper, Mom & Dad are more likely to have purchased them for their children and hence they were really played with...so have a history. Thanks for sharing.
OBTW I just purchased the new book "Hornby Trains in France" by Chris Graebe. If you have not seen it you should take a look, the pictures are beautiful, full color, etc and complete with a reasonable history of when they were manufactured. I found my copy on e-bay from Chris himself and it came with a signed memo!
Best wishes
Don
Hello Don, small models are as interesting to collect than the big ones. They where more affordable in their time by modest families and have been priced by their previous owners, you are so right. The Hornby book on French models is a must have, sure you will enjoy it.
From the same attic also came this one, unfortunately tender is missing but I will find one. She came with her matching passenger car. I already have the same model so I will not keep this one. It is a streamlined model from 1935, very popular little 240 loco which has been made in lithos and painted brown, the first models are stamped NORD and as the old railways companies became the SNCF in that same year the lettering was very fast changed for it.
And finally best of all was this JEP electric loco from the Paris-Orleans railways. Came with her box which is fine, unfortunately no passenger cars.... this model is the 1938 version and as I didn't have this variation that is one more in the collection....now the attic is empty and all the missing trains have certainly been trashed a long time ago. Finally those ones are saved and will be preserved.
Have a nice weekend, Daniel
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...and here (I think) is the SNCF version.
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@Robert S. Butler posted:...and here (I think) is the SNCF version.
Yes, the latest model with smoke deflectors. The modernised one.
Just after the NORD model JEP has made this one which is identical except now with SNCF. All those models have been sold with different types of motos and also in clockwork models...
Daniel
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Looking at these wonderful little toys, one wonders how they survived the catastrophe that descended just a few years later. A true miracle.
PD
Scott Smith
@FRENCHTRAINS/ @Robert S. Butler : Those JEP trains are really neat, the "modern" streamlining of steamers parallels what was going on in the US in the 1930's with locomotive streamlining...really great to see. Thank you for posting. I have the French Hornby example of the PO locomotive but in Hornby it was (unrealistically) an 0-4-0 and based on what Daniel posted, the headlight is in the wrong place!
Best wishes
Don
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@Don McErlean very nice French Hornby! And agree with you regarding @Robert S. Butler and @FRENCHTRAINS JeP! I almost picked some up at a train show on Sunday but arrived late and it was packed away after my first go around. I love the size and uniqueness of not only JeP but Hornby as well. While I don't have any of either in significant numbers, they're certainly distinct from the Central European offerings- in a good way
It's been awhile since I posted in tinplate. Here are some items I've gotten recently:
Prewar Flyer 1115 Automobile car- I believe that the doors or roof aren't original to the car. Lionel/Ives transformer station sans transformer and a Bing Illinois Central Boxcar. All in pretty good shape except for the doors of the Illinois Central
In addition to the station transformer above, these are the other 3 tinplate items I bought at the show on Sunday- almost all bodies/housing have either no nicks/scratches or very few!
Hoge Tom Thumb Powerhouse with original transformer(on the inside) and chord intact, roof has some bent portions but for $10 thought it was a decent deal
Ives Lehigh Valley RR boxcar- also got it for a low priced to the seller saying the roof isn't original- although it doesn't appear it's not original, it's also pretty scuffed. Appears to be a version produced between 1920-1925 judging by the trucks and paint.
Ives N.Y.C. & H.R. 128 gondola. Nice, larger size that looks great with prewar 800/2800 series Lionel. Two red crossbars, cream color
Lastly, side shot of the Tom Thumb Power House showing the control for the transformer
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@StevefromPA posted:It's been awhile since I posted in tinplate. Here are some items I've gotten recently:
Prewar Flyer 1115 Automobile car- I believe that the doors or roof aren't original to the car.
I would guess that your Flyer boxcar is 100% original. Flyer was simply using up various colored lithograph doors to get rid of them and your car appears to have gotten a set of blue doors. Here is a picture of mine with the same trucks/frame/roof. Although it has green doors, I have differing variations with brown litho doors, orange litho doors, and red litho doors.
Did someone mention blue doors???? Oh yes, definitely.
...and let's not forget green painted doors - it looks like they ran out of litho doors before they ran out of litho boxcars way back when.
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Steve from PA : Here is my 1115. It appears to be like the one just below NWL's in the picture in his response. No journal boxes, no brake wheel, lithographed ladder and black frame. 8 wheel car was made from 1919-1929. The cars with the lithographed ladder and no brake wheel or journals were the earlier cars. The one's like yours and NWL pictured are later '29-30 and Flyer put the "add on" ladder right over the lithographed ladder. However I agree, the car you have appears to be original. Don
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I guess if we are posting door colors of the 1115 orange litho cars, here are a few more
Brown
Red
Green Painted
Orange Painted
Orange Litho Dark. Note this car has white lettering instead of black lettering.
Orange Litho Light
NWL
@Don McErlean posted:Steve from PA : Here is my 1115. It appears to be like the one just below NWL's in the picture in his response. No journal boxes, no brake wheel, lithographed ladder and black frame. 8 wheel car was made from 1919-1929. The cars with the lithographed ladder and no brake wheel or journals were the earlier cars.
Don,
Actually, the lithographed cars with the brass ladders, journals, and brakewheels are from 1930 and after, the gray 8-wheel trucks are the key, as they were not produced until 1930. I believe the 1930 catalog indicates "brightly colored cars with brass trim" and the 1931 catalog states "enameled" for a description, as the artwork did not change.
The 4 wheel lithographed freight cars were sold at least through 1935/1936 in various low priced/uncataloged sets, as at least a couple of the cars in my post date to the mid-1930s. Some of the late 4 wheel cars come with the brass trim and some come without the brass trim.
NWL
@FRENCHTRAINS posted:
Have a nice weekend, Daniel
Love that wagon, colors are great. !
@NWL: Doors, Doors, Doors ... wow you have more doors than the singing group (bad joke). Neat display. Thank you for your input on the dating of the 4/8 wheel lithographed cars, it is confusing for sure. In addition, AF printed 8 wheel cars with either the 1115 or 1112 number (I have a red 8 wheel with the 1112 number) so its really confusing. Thanks again.
Today, I have a new acquisition to post. It is an American Flyer " Hummer" locomotive and tender. As best I can tell from my very limited reference material this example is from about 1924 (really dated by the tender ) although it has some aspects (open bottom motor) which might make it slightly earlier. The Hummer line was AF attempt to secure more business in the low end of the toy train market. They catalogued "Hummer" trains from 1916- 1927. Only clockwork , usually cataloged in sets although by 1924 American Flyer did provide a separate price for the loco (no tender) @ 60 cents (reference "American Flyer Prewar O' gauge by Alan R. Schuweiler).
Here is the locomotive and tender , Note the number on the tender is "513" and the loco has added hand rails. Both of these items help in dating this pair to about 1924.
Here is the underside of the clockwork motor. At some point, the bottom was closed via a sheet metal cover, my reference material does not give an exact date for this change.
The "Hummer" tender with crackle like finish and the rectangle containing the number "513". This dates this tender to about 1924 as does the addition of add on hand rails date the loco.
The real of the tender with the name..."The Hummer" and a picture of the AFL winged bird below (hard to discern through the crackle finish )
Well best wishes for a great week...
Don
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@Don McErlean posted:The "Hummer" tender with crackle like finish and the rectangle containing the number "513". This dates this tender to about 1924 as does the addition of add on hand rails date the loco.
The real of the tender with the name..."The Hummer" and a picture of the AFL winged bird below (hard to discern through the crackle finish )
Well best wishes for a great week...
Don
Was that "crackle finish" intentional or did it happen with age ? Whatever the answer I like it !
@G-Man24 posted:Was that "crackle finish" intentional or did it happen with age ? Whatever the answer I like it !
The "crackle" or "alligatored" finish occurs, but I am not sure that it would be attributed to age, as it does not happen on all items. I would suspect that it has something to do with the drying process of the lithograph, but I don't know.
As NWL said it’s possible it’s age but I don’t know. The only pictures I have show a smooth finish so it’s clearly at odds with the reference material I have but who knows if that is a complete picture Good question maybe some others will have an input.
Don
@Nation Wide Lines posted:The "crackle" or "alligatored" finish occurs, but I am not sure that it would be attributed to age, as it does not happen on all items. I would suspect that it has something to do with the drying process of the lithograph, but I don't know.
@Don McErlean posted:As NWL said it’s possible it’s age but I don’t know. The only pictures I have show a smooth finish so it’s clearly at odds with the reference material I have but who knows if that is a complete picture Good question maybe some others will have an input.
Don
I've been trying to think where I've seen it before and I just remembered. The Pre War Lionel 439 control panel with the knife switches. I've only seen it happen on the dark maroon Pre-War version not the Gray (?) or post war offerings. Some have it and some don't and to varying degrees. Based upon this I'd say this means it happens with age . Actually I don't know what this means, it just creates more questions than answers lol.
I've always been a fan of textured paint i.e., crinkle, wrinkle, crackle, hammertone, etc. I just think it looks neat on antiques. It gives the item a look and feel of precision and quality. You could spray wrinkle paint on an old index card and make it look valuable.
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@G-Man24 posted:I've been trying to think where I've seen it before and I just remembered. The Pre War Lionel 439 control panel with the knife switches. I've only seen it happen on the dark maroon Pre-War version not the Gray (?) or post war offerings. Some have it and some don't and to varying degrees. Based upon this I'd say this means it happens with age . Actually I don't know what this means, it just creates more questions than answers lol.
I've always been a fan of textured paint i.e., crinkle, wrinkle, crackle, hammertone, etc. I just think it looks neat on antiques.
Actually, that is more of an orange peel finish and is something to do with the type of paint finish and is entirely different from the lithograph alligatoring.
@Nation Wide Lines posted:Actually, that is more of an orange peel finish and is something to do with the type of paint finish and is entirely different from the lithograph alligatoring.
Hmmm. Not sure I'd call that "Orange Peel" but I agree it's different. I know orange peel because I've painted plenty of automobiles in "orange peel" . Unintentionally of course 
Gonna wade in with ideas rather than facts on this (lol)
Looking at it from a semi-scientific perspective ...
I think the effect is dependent on both how the surface coat is applied AND the environmental factors the piece experiences over a long time .. all metal expands and contracts with heat and cold , and whether the piece "alligators" or not would be an indicator of how well the elasticity of the topcoat ( paint or litho ) holds up over time ... if the topcoat is not 100% bonded to the entire area , over time the weaker attachment lines will have more stresses on them as they are no longer fully in contact with the underlying metal ( on a molecular level ) thus they crack minutely along weaker "fault lines" as they are pushed and pulled by the expansion and contraction , and over time the topcoat contracts away from the lightly fixed areas as it no longer has the bonds to keep it taut across the entire surface . the topcoat is still bonded to itself more than the metal or base-coat so even tho the coating doesn't flake off you get "Islands" of coating moving on the surface of the metal or base coat.
Most surface coatings tension as they dry or lose solvents, its why brush marks even out a little after drying etc ... Even when "dry" coatings continue to off-gas volatile's over a very long time ( in minute amounts ) and its often these volatile's that give coatings their flexibility.. which explains why alligatoring takes a long time and is associated with decent age . The effect could also take place WITHIN the coating itself if the "picture" part is a separate identity from the overall composition.
Litho in particular is several layers of pigment bearing substrate ( ink) applied over each other ... over time each colour layer may also minutely expand and contract at different rates .. the Green over Yellow of Dons AF tender seems to be that way .. the green top ink has moved and contracted over time more than the yellow base ink which has remained tightly affixed to the metal , thus the green ink "islands" have formed and contracted over the years ?
Its what commercial orange peel paints and processes rely on , also Hammerite etc ... the Hammerite is a tough intact coating , but as it dries the pigment components are less attached to the binding matter and they shift to create the distinctive Hammered Look .
The clever bit with them is they keep the outer and inner surfaces of the coating attached to whatever you are painting , allow the alligatoring of the pigment to take place then bind it in super tough top and bottom clear layers to provide a durable overall finish ... they achieve intentionally the same process in minutes rather than the years it takes our toys to
I have the same tender with some of that. Usually see it on pieces that have been clear coated with something like a varnish. The under and upper finish age differently.
Here is a Dorfan, but they did it intentionally.
Steve
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@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:I have the same tender with some of that. Usually see it on pieces that have been clear coated with something like a varnish. The under and upper finish age differently.
Here is a Dorfan, but they did it intentionally.
Steve
Love the look of that Dorfan. I guess I have a hard time believing, in the case of Don's AFL tender, that the manufacturer intended it to happen knowing that it could distort the graphics/lettering to the point where it's nearly illegible .
After a longer time, a lot of news in the collection. But some need help.
A big Karl Bub loco from around 1910.
The tinplate on some parts was destroyed, had made them new.
In the clockwork was a part broken.
Nearly complete, but needs 4 front wheels ( the next to do)
A small Bing loco is missing 3 of the 4 wheels, I make them new.
Had made a mold for hard lead. Left the Bing wheels, right the wheels for the big Bub loco.
A Bing crane car is missing the crank to turn.
But not all need help.
Bing coal car 10/547 from around 1910
Bing car 10328 made 1911-1915
And a very rare Bing acid car 10297 made 1911-1922
Arne
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Got this Ives 3242 today.
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Arnie: You are an absolute craftsman...beautiful work. The "good" cars were also spectacular, I especially liked the "acid" car with the containers never have seen anything like that before. Thank you for posting.
Don
OK Tinplate Fans, I have something for you that is essentially NONSENSE but IT IS Tinplate! Now on 2/10 in the "Marx Train Pictures" thread Fatman allowed as he now has 2 pieces of plastic in his collection but would not likely have more...so how can you scenic a layout without using some plastic. Well here is your solution...I present to you...Lithographed, tinplate rock formations !!
Now tinplate purists you too can have scenery...here they are:
In close up Both formations are each about 4" long, 2.5" wide and about 1" high at the highest point. We have flowers, weeds, grass, dirt, and rocks...all presented in lithographed beauty (LOL)!.
I just got these in the mail and they are going on my layout. Folks...don't take this too seriously it is just for laughs and can't compare with the fabulous trains posted elsewhere. Just for fun.
Don
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@Don McErlean posted:OK Tinplate Fans, I have something for you that is essentially NONSENSE but IT IS Tinplate! Now on 2/10 in the "Marx Train Pictures" thread Fatman allowed as he now has 2 pieces of plastic in his collection but would not likely have more...so how can you scenic a layout without using some plastic. Well here is your solution...I present to you...Lithographed, tinplate rock formations !!
Now tinplate purists you too can have scenery...here they are:
In close up Both formations are each about 4" long, 2.5" wide and about 1" high at the highest point. We have flowers, weeds, grass, dirt, and rocks...all presented in lithographed beauty (LOL)!.
I just got these in the mail and they are going on my layout. Folks...don't take this too seriously it is just for laughs and can't compare with the fabulous trains posted elsewhere. Just for fun.
Don
I “think” they are by Chein
Steve
Steve: Thanks for the data...they are not marked in any way, including country of origin hence my assumption that they would be US made and I naturally went to Marx...but pleased to know if they are Chien.
Don
The " Great Train Drought" of 2022 has broken , courtesy yet again of Dutchboy!
He's done a great job finding quite a few early locos that need bits n bobs sourced and replaced , but he tempted me into letting the moths out of the wallet with a glorious 1950's Distler rake to add to the mayhem at Casa Fatmanos .
@Fatman posted:The " Great Train Drought" of 2022 has broken , courtesy yet again of Dutchboy!
He's done a great job finding quite a few early locos that need bits n bobs sourced and replaced , but he tempted me into letting the moths out of the wallet with a glorious 1950's Distler rake to add to the mayhem at Casa Fatmanos .
Fatman,
that´s one of the last Distler trains. Loco No 14 LK and coaches No 14C in the rarer blue colour. Made around 1960. Distler had made trains only till 1961.
Arne
Fatman - That's a beauty!!
Tom M - a 1688E in chrome is really neat, wish Lionel had done one that way!
Don
@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:I “think” they are by Chein
Steve
I had once seen who made these a long time ago and forgot !! I bought 3 of them at York train show 5 or more years ago and now use them with my BarclayManoil soldiers . 
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@JohnnieWalker: Hey those tinplate "rocks" look good with the Barclay soldiers. I am going to make them part of my layout.
Don
Greetings Friends,
I just wanted to share with you a piece of luck I found on Ebay. It is the Kibri 52-1 large station approximately 28 inches long. Produced between 1925 and 1930 this was the first of the large Kibri stations. It was very dirty and probably turned potential purchasers off. But, when I cleaned it up it looks pretty good---and it is very rare. So here is a photo of the 52-1 and by comparison the 52-3 produced between 1929 and 1935.
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Lewrail, thanks for sharing your Kibri photo. I had one and didn't know it, much smaller but nice. I was able to purchase several tin buildings and it was among them. Here's the picture. One day I will have to sell most of them (they take up too much room), but this is probably a keeper, in spite of the rear faded roof.
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Nice addition, Lew!!
Thank you friends for the kind comments about my Kibri 52-1 station. You will be pleased to learn that peace has been declared in Wabanville. The soldiers have left the platform of the station and the travelers have returned. Enjoy.
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Hi Chuck 242 That is a very nice station but it is Karl Bub, not Kibri. Karl Bub (KBN as seen on your station) produced lithographed stations whereas Kibri 's(Kindler & Briel) stations were painted tinplate or steel. Lew
Thanks Lew, one of those things that I'd never know unless someone told me. You have some wonderful buildings and I always appreciate these Tin forums, especially the variety and history associated with wonderful and colorful items OGRR members share. You are right about your new stations being large...28" long makes for a huge footprint. Nice to know that the peace has been restored too. All the best, Chuck
Those stations are awesome. I would station the army men at another post is all, doesn't seem to fit the mood, but never mind me. I like ladies in pretty dresses much better. Very cool.
Oh geez now I see you have found a new place for the army guys, I like this look much better. Didn't see that before my first thought, weird but I'm kind of relieved. Might be the current events happening. Nothing against army men, trust me, just seemed out of place. I'm actually sitting down to watch - To H#// and Back - a small sample of the exploits of Audie Murphy, the most decorated soldier in American history. I have heard or read there is no way all the things he did could ever be fully told.
Cheers and Peace out, W1
A while ago I purchased a lot of tin rolling stock and a few engines (and buildings too). The one I am going to share in this thread caught my eye because it was so well done, it was almost like new - but the Engine and Tender just didn't seem right, even though they had extra detailing and add on's. This 'Brown' set has been a shelf queen, and the Pullman cars were named after States, and they were numbered. This weekend, out of curiosity I pulled out the Greenberg guide and looked them up. My initial thought was holy cow, I am a rich guy...but then I realized that a very talented individual had repainted a set of 'O' gauge cars and Engine etc to replicate a more expensive 'Standard' gauge outfit. The individual matched the State names and Pullman numbers, some really nice work. Something like this should be shared with others who have similar interests. Enjoy. Chuck
PS - let me know if I did ACTUALLY strike it rich (LOL)
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@Chuck242: That is really a nice set, someone with real skill matched the numbers and colors to produce a "mini" state set. Some other "oddities" that I noticed are that the cars are definitely pre-war and have pre-war trucks and couplers. The engine (#675) and the tender however are post war, variations of which were made from 1947-1952 - one of the best post war steamers by the way (at least in my opinion). So someone must have mounted pre-war trucks or at least couplers to the tender at the end mating to the train. I have a similar set of expert re-paints, they are two 610 Pullman's and an 612 Observation from the 1920's that should be Mojave for their year of manufacturing but someone (very expertly) painted them green and re-did the number plates and name plates. Why did they do that? My guess is that they did it to match the green #253 locomotive that came with the cars. However, they look great and run well and no one can notice the difference unless you are a pre-war collector like me who just had to look !! So you didn't get rich except in having a great running and good looking passenger set for your personal railroad...not too bad a pay off anyway.
Don
Recently scored these two 500 Prewar standard gauge cars to complete my collection of every color scheme, don’t need every variation. Been looking for the 513 cream and maroon for a while. It’s all original and really nice. Pretty sure the 517 coal set caboose is a restoration, the only car I have that isn’t original, but it’s a beauty so I’m happy with it. All done, next step is to build a layout and get my track off the floor so my guys have room to run. Got the switches and track I need so I’m pretty excited about that.
Cheers, W1
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Love the Red and Cream
Ok, who is the genius who buried my favorite topic/thread on the forum in this section. I looked forward every week to seeing what new things guys had to share in the tinplate forum. I stumbled on this by accident almost and now see it is not as active and fun as it used to be.
I guess that’s my rant, and I really don’t like to go there, but geez…. Why kill a good thing. Just sayin…
This is fun, especially in full-screen mode:
Well, I must admit being taken aback at the comment by pd, not sure what he is driving at but to me this thread has been really great with some postings of trains that I would never have seen any other way.
So to continue with my own contribution, I did post on 1/14 pictures of my long sought, Marx Monon FM "B" unit, the 4 wheel version. At that time I believe I noted that they also made an 8 wheel "B" unit, but candidly since I had searched for so long for any "B" unit I doubted that I would ever encounter another one. Well, that's what is so unique about this hobby. Low and behold, I had the opportunity and did in fact acquire the 8 wheel version of the Monon FM B unit. Pictures below.
Here is the Marx Monon FM diesel "B" unit, 8 wheel variety. This really shows the Marx art of lithography, note the use of shadows in the portholes, hatch doors, and vents to give the illusion of depth, the car side is in fact completely flat.
Here is the classic quarter view.
Finally the end view. I am really impressed with the shadow effect for the end doors. They look remarkably 3-dimensional and when you look at the item, you would swear that they in fact are openings in the side. They are not, the doors are completely 2 dimensional and flat. The optical illusion is really well done.
Well that's my newest tinplate, best wishes to all
Don
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