TIU communication issue

Have you checked the simple stuff, see if the remote transceiver has worked it way loose from the main board?

Hi John, Thankyou for the response. No I have not had the TIU apart. The only time I opened one of these up was to replace a fuse years ago. What exactly am I looking for? Do you have a picture of the boards

Thanks

Rich R

Do a Read and the remote should find all 3 TIU’s. If not. Do as John suggested. Seeing you have power going to the rails.  Go into Menu, System and then TIU Setup. Find the DCS setup and make sure that it’s turned on.

If still a no go. There’s nothing like multiples when diagnosing issues. If you can easily switch out TIU’s. Switch out 2 and 3 and do an identical hookup for each and see if it corrects one problem but creates another. This would at least point to the TIU as the problem or the track wiring causing an issue.

Thanks Dave, I’ll do the reed function and ck to make sure the TIU is turned on today. Ill wait until after Thanksgiving to start moving TIU’s around . Good trouble shooting techniques. I also think that Ill start checking you tube to find some pictures or diagrams that identify the TIU boards .

Thanks

Rich R

@amtrack5899 posted:

Thanks Dave, I’ll do the reed function and ck to make sure the TIU is turned on today. Ill wait until after Thanksgiving to start moving TIU’s around . Good trouble shooting techniques. I also think that Ill start checking you tube to find some pictures or diagrams that identify the TIU boards .

Thanks

Rich R

It's the only plug in daughter card in the unit. Upper right corner of this photo

semi related topic https://ogrforum.com/...dio-board-pin-repair

FWIW, when I joined this hobby, and first got into MTH DCS, there was some basic things circulating about known possible faults and just general notes.

• The 900MHZ radio daughter board in the remote could come unplugged and lose communications over RF with TIU. The board is just held together to the main board with a square of double sided foam sticky tape. This actually happened to me just the other day with a remote at the local club.
• The 900MHZ radio daughter board in the TIU could come unplugged and lose communications over RF with remote. The board is just held together to the main board with a square of double sided foam sticky tape.
• When tethering the remote using the phone 4 pin coil cord, ensure you never ever plug it into the TIU jack labeled AIU. Only plug it into the remote jack. Making this mistake can destroy both the remote and the TIU.
• 

Never into

What does lost communication mean?  You can't talk to the TIU with your remote of Wifi?  OR that loss of communication with trains?

Two totally different issues. G

This afternoon I ran the MTH portion of my layout. It consists of about 260 wire drops. The wires go to multiple 24 port  terminal blocks. Each block goes to a single port on a TIU. I am using WiFi. When I powered up the TIU’s and WiFi  I went to advanced, system ,TIU set up and it read all 3 TIUs.

I started the train on TIU 2 and the speed control, horn and bell all worked fine. When it transitioned  to the section of the layout using TIU 1 I lost speed control, horn and bell functions. When it came back to TIU 2 all functions were restored.

Next I went to advance, system, TIU set up and it was only reading TIU 2.  Note : TIU 1 and TIU 3 were missing.

To answer GGG question it appears the communication issue is with the TIU’s and not with the train.  It also seems to be intermittent but more prevalent with TIU 3.

I think this brings me back to GRJ suggestion of checking the remote transceiver connection to the main board . Possibly on all 3 TIU’s.

Also note that I do have a legacy base connected to the layout with the ground wire from the Legacy base going to all 12 ports on my TIU’s.

Would it be worth disconnecting the wire to the Legacy base to see if this is causing interference?

Please advise.

Thanks

Rich R

While the Transceiver board can be an issue. It just seems odd all of a sudden 2 out 3 TIU’s would have an issue. You said you were using WIFI to run everything. I have WIFI but rarely use it. Do you have a good working remote you can try ?

It’s funny that you mentioned that. I rarely/never use my remotes but I did try my layout remote for troubleshooting this issue. It did read all 3 TIU’s but when I went to menu system the thumb wheel stayed depressed and tilted sideways. Fortunately I found one of Barrys notes on how to remove the back cover on a remote. I also found another post on placing a pad on the back of the remote to prevent this.This weekends project.

I do have a second shop base remote but I cant remember exactly how to set it up. Do you just hit read to find the 3 TIU’s? Should I change the remote address? Should I delete the engines that a re stored on this remote and re enter the engines?

Thanks

Rich R

More information on my communication issue. I recently bought a new switcher 30-21048-1 from EZ catch - South Buffalo. I have 29 engines on the WiFi system. When I tried to add the new engine it allowed me to add it but I got the following error message “ Requires app upgrade,  You’ve reached the maximum of 3 engines . Upgrade to “Standard” to unlock.

Did I loose my purchased app and it reverted back to the free app? Will I have to repurchase the standard app or can I retrieve it?

Since I always use the WiFi is this the root cause to my communication issues?

Thanks

Rich R

@amtrack5899 posted:

Did I loose my purchased app and it reverted back to the free app? Will I have to repurchase the standard app or can I retrieve it?

No, you just need to refresh your existing license.

Background- you need to understand how this works. Your phone does not go out to the internet each and every time you open the app to see if you have a valid upgrade license. That would be a huge problem right? Especially in scenarios where the phone or tablet is not on the internet and cannot check. So, with many apps, they download a token to your phone. That has an expiration and is not "forever". It's this simple- your token expired, and you just need to refresh it while connected to the internet.

https://ogrforum.com/...lready-paid-for-this

Again a huge piece of this is 3rd party and has nothing to do with MTH. It's the fact the very app store and licensing structures exist and limitations of how to buy a license that has a limited lifespan- even though the app might be a permanent purchase- the phone/tablet operating system enforces the application policies- and thus they are not forever tokens. The how and when is controlled by them.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I had to log into the app store- just to make sure I was still logged in, open the DCS app, at the top right under the upgrade there is a "Restore" I hit that, and then my License showed up.

I believe you have to manually add all the TIU’s and then put the remote in Super Mode. Even if your remote has the same number as your other one. You might be okay as long as you are not using both at the same time. Tough to check settings in your other one with bad thumbwheel. Engine ID’s may not be the same in each remote and trying to run one presently on the layout. The shop  remote may not find it as the ID’s may differ.

With DCS. It’s best to keep it simple when testing. After you get the TIU’s added. Best to re add one good working  engine and run all your tests. When you mentioned WIFI. That added another variable to the equation. As your phone has to communicate to the WIFI module and from there to the TIU. I figure it best to test in the simplest form by using a remote with no boxes or cables involved.

Thanks Vernon, the reset did take care of the app issue and now the WiFi seem to be consistently reading all 3 TIU’s. I still have the issue with TIU 3 not communicating with the trains. That might be the loose board issue as suggested by GRJ.

Next I will follow Dave C’s suggestion with the back up remote and see how that works.

This weekend I’ll probably take TIU 3 apart and check for the loose board and repair my main remote.

Thanks to everyone.  This  is a great Forum with a lot of knowledgeable people.

If you have any other suggestions please post.

Thanks

Rich R

@amtrack5899 posted:

Thanks Vernon, the reset did take care of the app issue and now the WiFi seem to be consistently reading all 3 TIU’s. I still have the issue with TIU 3 not communicating with the trains. That might be the loose board issue as suggested by GRJ.

Actually, that's the track signal, so it would be something internal to the TIU.  You have three Wifi boxes, right, one for each TIU?

I agree, the daughter card  is for wireless coms with remotes- has nothing to do with an app over wifi.

Yes 3 WiFi units, one for each TIU.

John, if I understand this correctly, since I’m having issues while using WiFi then the problem is not the remote transceiver  board. Could the issue be the WiFi associated with theTIU # 3? With this in mind I should I try the second remote.

Can you start up an engine that’s in a block associated with TIU 2 and get it moving slowly towards a block in TIU 3 . Start doing a track signal test while it’s still running off of TIU 2.  You should have a good number in 2. When it gets s to TIU 3. Just curious as to what shows up on the screen. Do you get some sort of error message or does the track signal just tank to a low number. This should clarify if it’s a problem with the Wifi Itself or just not a good enough track signal. Even a bad number would tell you the remote or phone is communicating with the TIU.

Hi Dave, I ran the engine this morning and I got solid 10’s on TIU 2 , when it got to TIU 3 I got an error message “ read failed “. This section of track is using a slave WiFi unit. I believe when I originally set this up I had to pair the slave WiFi units with the master. I did check and the wire from the WiFi unit to the TIU 3 does appear to be snug. Should I try to pair this unit again or just replace it. I do have a spare WiFi unit.

I think my next step is to delete everything off of my shop remote and set it up as my layout remote and see what happens.

Thanks

Rich R

I reset/cleared my base remote and I am trying to add the layout TIU’s  one at a time. When I go to system,TIU set up,add TIU I only see TIU 2 thru 5. There is no TIU 1. How do name TIU 1 in the remote when I cant select it in the ADD screen?

Thanks

Rich R

I did find TIU 1 using the read function and properly added TIU 2 and 3.

I ran some trains this morning with both the WiFi App and the remote. In both occasions the # 3 TIU demonstrated the same affect. I was unable to adjust speed, bell or horn on the TIU 3 section of track with either the App or remote.  All functions work normally on TIU 1 and 2. All of the TIU channels are set to fixed and all TIU’s are set to super. This was done with the remote. I am not sure how to do this with the app.

Based on this I think I am back to GRJ suggestion of checking the connection between the remote transceiver board with the mother board.

Advise Welcome

Tanks , Rich R

I’m not sure on this when running in Super Mode. You should be able to tether your remote to TIU 3. Just not sure if you can control the other TIU’s. This I think would rule out anything but the transceiver board if everything functions as it should.

Thanks Dave, as per your suggestion, I tethered the remote to TIU # 3. I left TIU 2 & 3 off. I did get the T on the remote so I know the tethered connection between the remote and TIU was made. I still got no response from the speed control ,horn or sound. I tried adding this engine to TIU # 3 because it was originally added to TIU # 1. It read Looking for engine for several minutes then I got the TIU error message on the remote. Is it safe to assume that we can rule out the remote transceiver board and the WIU.  Note: I did left  TIU # 3 in super mode.

How do I proceed?

Thanks

Rich R

If you do a Read with the remote tethered. Will it find TIU 3 ?   If it does. I’d remove just that TIU and setup a programming track using just fixed one. If you can add an engine and you have all the functions. It may point to your layout at this point. It’s just hard to believe all 4 channels could have an issue.
If the programming track is a no go. It may be best to have the TIU checked out by GGG.

Thanks Dave, I forgot to mention that while I had the remote tethered to the TIU I did do a read function and the remote did not see any of the TIU’s. No 1 and 2 were turned off.

Ill set up a programming track with TIU 3 next.

Just a question. What could possibly be the issue with the layout? Something that I can easily check or at least give it some thought ahead of time? I do have the Legacy base in that area. Would it be worth disconnecting  that from the TIU to see if I am getting interference ?

Thanks

Rich R

Usually I removed anything lighted or motive power. Some passenger cars can really de grade the signal. I think you have to get it to it’s simplist form such as a programming track. Then just slowly add everything back. One channel at a time. Just make sure you always have Fixed 1 powered or use an Auxiliary power supply. A problem with the layout though should only effect the one channel. I’d un plug the Legacy base and just make sure your Lionel stuff is on unpowered track. It shouldn’t have any effect. But at this point. I’d try it just to rule it out.

Are you using all 4 channels on the TIU ?

Years ago I couldn’t get any signal on the 2 yard portions of the layout. At some point I must have tripped a fast blow track fuse moving something on to the layout. Everything TMCC ran fine. The 2 yards shared the same power supply but were on different channels isolated by a lift out bridge. With a change in the weather. The 2 center rails contacted each other and there was no longer a gap. I now had one channel feeding both yards with way to much trackage. I sort of stumbled across the issue but I was scratching my head for hours. The rail is now trimmed back and a piece of styrene is glued in place.

@amtrack5899 posted:

I do have the Legacy base in that area. Would it be worth disconnecting  that from the TIU to see if I am getting interference ?

Yes, TMCC/Legacy radio frequency can interfere with the DCS signal- especially if your TIU channel DCS transmit sections were damaged (ACT244 drivers).

Remove the base and then use an engine to perform a DCS signal test.

It's not unheard of to damage a TIU channel, and in extreme cases, I've seen all 4 channels of a TIU damaged with having to replace all 4 of the ACT244s.

There are more topics on this than I can count or reasonable to link.

https://ogrforum.com/...-aghr-and-mth?page=1

https://ogrforum.com/...agination.sort=SCORE

I have been doing some reading of the posts that Vernon supplied. Is it even safe to connect the DCS and Legacy systems together or should they be run on separate tracks?  I could segregate the 2 systems and run them independently on different tracks if needed . This would even eliminate the need for the 3rd TIU.

Will the new systems that are soon to come out ,Lionel Base 3 and the TIU/WIU , be safe to run together?

@amtrack5899 posted:

I have been doing some reading of the posts that Vernon supplied. Is it even safe to connect the DCS and Legacy systems together or should they be run on separate tracks?  I could segregate the 2 systems and run them independently on different tracks if needed . This would even eliminate the need for the 3rd TIU.

Will the new systems that are soon to come out ,Lionel Base 3 and the TIU/WIU , be safe to run together?

Clearly you missed a contextual point being made- if you already have a weak or non-operating DCS signal condition- bad TIU or other DCS device with weak signal (example the DCS explorer has weaker signal than a comparable TIU channel) then yes, in some rare cases interference can happen.

That said NORMALLY, you can run both (DCS and Lionel TMCC/Legacy) without issue on the same track. A huge percentage of folks run just such mixed environments each and every day all day.

It's just is basic common sense troubleshooting being discussed here.

We have a TIU we think might have an issue. We have both systems connected, so for the purpose of troubleshooting- common sense- let's eliminate variables and isolate the TIU to actually test it's DCS signal strength without any interference.

I run DCS and TMCC/Legacy together all the time.  Both systems are enabled on my layout by default when I power up.  I do have a remote switch to kill the Legacy command base for testing, and I can kill the DCS signal using the remote to turn off DCS on the layout.  This allows me to have any combination of DCS, TMCC/Legacy, or plain conventional.

I understand the basic common sense troubleshooting techniques and I will isolate the TIU on my workbench today. I also have a bench TIU that is a Rev H that I can swap out to test the layout. Thank you. Your help is greatly appreciated.

My concern was that based on the number of posts from the links that you pasted it appeared to be a fairly common issue .

Thanks

Rich R