LOWERING A LEGACY E7 NON-POWERED B-UNIT

I remember that thread as we had a UP powered B unit that was also a 'high water' model.  Don't remember the details, but it entailed more than I felt comfortable doing at the time!

Will be watching because I picked up a NYC 'breakdown' B at York from a Forum member that appears to have the same afliction. I plan to repaint it to run with a Burlington TMCC E5 A that was painted in the Southern Tuxedo scheme. Haven't had the chance to set them together as yet for a comparison...

Just curious but what features does a Legacy non-powered B unit offer?

Laidoffsick - I sent you an email with a fix.

Howard, can you send it to me as well please?

Sam, I got a bounce sending you an email yesterday.  I sent two emails today to see which address was correct.  Did you get one of them?

Of course I will send you the fix.  I'll also repost my email address.

Wow, I have a set of A-B-A NYC E7's that have the high water issue as well.

Can you share your secret invention with us all?

J Daddy - I've done it on a number of units from that period.  You need to lower the body shell.  By doing so, you have to make some sacrifices like the smoke unit.  You also loose the ability to open the side doors and rear doors on A units.  It is more of a modification that a 3RS guy would be happy with, but not someone that likes all the bells and whistles.  If you lower it too much you also run the risk of touching the motor flywheels.  I use my smoke unit circuit on RS4 to control cab lights and for the most part don't use smoke on diesels.

Here is a picture of the results on a F3 from that high water period.  If you look at the 2nd B unit, you can see the gap between the body and the truck step.  It hasn't been lowered yet.

Look for #17 in the picture below and you can see where the unit above started.

The one thing I can't verify is that you can run the engine for long periods and not have to worry about heat build up. 

I'm not trying to keep it a secret and have posted the info a couple of years ago but no one responded.  The reason I don't do it again is because I don't want to be blamed for someone ruining their engines.

Let me know if you are still interested.

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Not sure why they list it as a Legacy unit, it has nothing inside. No smoke, sound, pick up rollers....not a thing! :-)

That is not entirely true. I picked up a set of WP F-7's in Legacy... the dummy unit had reverse lamps, remote rear coupler and a smoke unit.

Wow! They look amazing! Very well done. hmm loss of my smoke units you say...maybe a sacrafise I am willing to make... hmm...

I have a question for Laidofsick, it is kind of off topic but how do you go about painting the B unit or any other car for that matter. It seems like a cool concept to be able to make your own design if you feel like it.

Well J Daddy, I'm not talking about a F-7, we're talking about an E-7....and there is NOTHING in it! I thought maybe someone gutted the thing before I got it but if you look on the Lionel website, THIS Legacy E7 non-powered B-unit doesn't come with any of those features. You can't compare an apple to an orange.

JoeG.....

I'll airbrush it with primer, then the red and silver, and apply Micro Scale decals

This is the gap that is way too big and needs to be reduced. 

This is how it NEEDS to sit.

You can see the MAJOR difference between how it is and how it should be.

You see the mounting plate on the left. The truck mounting "stud" on the right is too tall. Now on a powered unit you won't be able to do what I'm about to do, but I will grind down the studs all the way through the mounting tabs that hold the truck in. Then make a new tab that crosses the hole out of styrene strips, drill and tap it so I can mount it with screws. I think it just might work.

This is the first time I've had the two different E series diesels to compare side by side and the difference is profound.  Why the heck would Lionel have produced these otherwise fine scale E (and F)  units with such a bad chassis height from the rails?

The units as delivered from Lionel look ridiculous!

They completely loose that massive, heavy prototypical appearance of all large diesels.

This 'breakdown B' has a lot of stuff inside so just lowering the shell on the chassis  may not work. It would seem that something could be done at the point where the pivot for the trucks attaches?

See the 'air' space between the trucks and the chassis which is far too great on the NYC E7 (left) compared to the more pleasing closeness of the (former) Burlington E5 on the right? This raises the cab to a noticeably higher profile at the roof than the E5 on the right.

Also noticed that the rear coupler on the A unit (right) is considerable longer than the coupler on the B unit (left).

I missed your recent post above Doug while I was typing mine. You appear to be on the right track with your modification to the mounting piece.  I'll be watching and hope you succeed!

Sorry, you are correct, I was eye glazed by the the warbonnet F-7's lowered and looking good!

Sam I didn't notice the difference until I put the B unit on the shelf between my 2 A units, and yes, its a huge difference when running them together. Also, that coupler really isn't any longer, it's because there is NO diaphragm on that 1 unit so it makes it look longer. My AA units don't have diaphragms either, so I thought the same thing at 1st.

Over all it's a huge screw up by Lionel with a Legacy unit considering the TMCC units have much better spacing. 

JDaddy, no problem...Marker and Sam have excellent looking units

So here's what I got so far........... 

Sanded down the truck bolster about 1/8" removing the cast in mounting tab. 

Used strip styrene .180 x .250, drilled and tapped a 2-56 screw to hold the mouting tab to the truck bolster.

These screws need to be cut down or else the new lowered frame won't turn at all.

Once they are cut down and de-burred, truck rotation is not a problem.

BUT ITS STILL TOO HIGH! by about 1/16"+. Look at the wheels on the 2 different units. That is a big part of the extra height, the whole unit is a tad too high. The side frames sit farther off the rail on the Legacy unit, but the body is still a tad too high off the truck itself.

Now I'm getting anal I know, but I think I'm going to cut down the body mounting posts. There's only 8 of them! lol

 Why the heck would Lionel have produced these otherwise fine scale E (and F)  units with such a bad chassis height from the rails?

Calabrese said they were only 1/16" higher than the earlier models.  Right.

This 'breakdown B' has a lot of stuff inside so just lowering the shell on the chassis  may not work. It would seem that something could be done at the point where the pivot for the trucks attaches?

The only way you could make that work out is if you dumped that smoke unit.  My breakdown B F units are only used for sound.  The smoke unit would melt the top if used.  I had a new breakdown B that melted the top, Lionel modified it, but I still don't trust it.  I only use them for sound.

Laidoffsick- Looks very good.  When you lower the body you will be there.  I'm really looking forward to the paint job.

FINALLY! Almost 3/16" lowered from the frame to the truck, and another 1/16" off the body mount posts. We now have matching body lines.

I had to file the side skirts a bit to clear the brake cylinder pistons. Now the front and rear stirrups will have to be glued on because the screws are too short, not to mention the they are not bent deep enough to go up in there that far. No biggie, glue will hold them just fine. 

Calabrese is just typical upper management in a business of that size. Sits at a desk 90% of the time and the other 10% is in meetings, he probably don't even know how to read a ruler! Of course he'll say whatever to minimize the problem jus to get the customer to buy. The size of the gap in those units are that of 027 trains, not scale size equipment.

Glad I didn't buy a whole set, because my modification won't work on the powered units. Get the Sunset 3rd Rail units instead.     

Good thread!  Nice job on that B-unit.

Marker, I have one of the Lionel 'high water' F7's that I'd like to lower.  Can you e-mail me the directions please?  My e-mail is in my profile.  This model also has the "deep dish pizza cutter" flanges on all of the non-powered axles.  They rattle on the ballast in my yard and cause a jump at switch frogs.  I'll have a machinist friend reduce those for me and if the bodies can be lowered then those units will be really nice.  I don't run smoke, in fact the smoke units are already gone since I changed out the Odyssey for Electric RR Cruise Commander electronics.

Thanks in advance,

Get the Sunset 3rd Rail units instead

I've already tried my Lionel E6 shells on the Sunset E7 chassis.  It can easily be made to work.

great job... keep us posted. I guess having the A-B-A NYC E-7's I am stuck on the powered unit...I could just get them down 1/8 of an inch they would look a whole lot better....

Was just re-reading this entire thread to give myself a better understanding of the whole thing (age related  'lack of retention') and noticed your comment about the wheels themselves being too big. You're correct as I discovered by looking at both units from below. The Legacy wheels are noticeably larger overall!

Come on Lionel - wouldn't you think for reasons of economy they would have used the same wheels et. al. for an E7 as they did for the beautiful E6s?  

Were these units manufactured by different sub-contractors perhaps?

Also like your comment about the gap being expected on 0-27 type trains, NOT a Legacy scale locomotive!

Thanks Sam, if I would have known all of this up front, I wouldn't have bought the B unit... even at $95. Marker gave me the idea of getting a powered B unit as well to push the dummy E6 A unit around, but screw that!

Now that I'm knee deep into this B unit, I've gotta run to the hobby shop to get some paint. Thought I had what I needed, but I have just about everything but red and silver.  

Doug,  What are you working on here?  I gather that you have an AA pair of the Lionel Santa Fe E6? An ABA will be a pretty long locomotive as is, are you considering adding a powered B to it as well per Marker's idea?

Right now I'm wishing I could have located a MTH E seres B unit...

Sam - Did you ever get the email about York, etc.

About the B unit.  Santa Fe bought most of their E units, not all, but most as A-B sets.

In the early years they pretty much ran them that way.  E6 #14 came as an A-B and #15 was a lone A, or the other way around.  Personally I try to run 14 & 15 as A-B combos. 

Based on Lionel designed these engines to run be powered by a single unit:

I bought a powered a Lionel E7 B to push the #15 dummy.  I've adapted an MTH ATSF B shell to the Lionel chassis.  It also allows me to put a full interior from P&D in the A unit.

#14 A will power the other A-B set.  I will probably buy an MTH E8 B unit for that set up.  It was common for the Santa Fe to mix E6's and E8's.

Yes I have the TMCC AA's and want to make 2 different AB (L&A) sets. Run them as a 15L & 15A and 14L with a 13A unit. So I need a powered b unit to push the dummy 15L unit around. I stole that idea from Marker

I see!   Thanks guys.

Marker,  since you are a vast repository of knowlege in all things Santa Fe ,

How about write a good piece with some of your great photos on modeling the Santa Fe?

Here is a nice shot of them on Cesar's huge pike

Marker,  since you are a vast repository of knowlege in all things Santa Fe ,

How about write a good piece with some of your great photos on modeling the Santa Fe?

Sam there are a lot of guys on the forum that have a greater wealth of knowledge than me.  Laidoffsick is one of them.  They don't always post the answers to Santa Fe questions.  I've been humbled many times by the knowledge of others.  With regards to writing a piece, I will have to wait until a layout is finished.  It might be worth it at that point.  But don't hold your breath, I may be moving again.

One of the things I learned from this thread is that there is a wheel difference.  I wasn't aware of that.  I just never looked that close.  I think I tried the E6A and E7B together a couple of years ago when I was working on this project, they didn't run well together.  Aside from the speed steps in the control systems I guess the wheel diameter (which I never considered) would also contribute to the problem.

It's been awhile since I messed with this B unit, but I did some more work on it, and then body mounted Kadee's & the pilot to it's leader. The diaphragm is from Keil-Line and it allows close coupling and runs on my 072 curves.

I also swapped out the rear steps on the A unit to get rid of those stupid shorties. Looks much better with full length steps I think!

The B unit just needs painted but it's almost 100 degrees in the garage.