Today's visit to the Railroader's Museum in Altoona, PA

I totally agree with you. It has been a couple of years since I was there but things haven't gotten any better. Criminal.

Ditto! The 1361 situation is a crime! Who is the "genius" that came up with the ideas for the rolling stock? The Altoona equipment should be shipped to Strasburg. As a member of the PRRT&H Society, I am outraged! This is NOT what a museum is supposed to do with these artifacts!

It makes me sick to my stomach to see this.

The last time I was there was several years ago and it seems nothing has changed!

Chief Bob (Retired)

Ouch!

Peter

totally agree. my Uncle was there earlier this year, and couldn't believe the band stand set up.

Very depressing.  I was there about ten years ago, and I can see that I won't be going again.  And I agree that this should be the subject of an investigation by the Pennsylvania government.

What's gone on with 1361 will baffle historians for generations to come. I'm sure Jack (Hot water) knows a lot more, but I was told that the K4 wasn't fully restored for operation and soon had several issues which is why she didn't run for very long. What's come next is open for serious debate. Some RR forums won't even allow posts about the locomotive anymore. Think the current UP steam crew situation is all over the map? That's nothing compared to the finger pointing that's gone on for years over 1361. I wouldn't even try to figure out what it truth and what isn't after all this time.

A pal of mine recently went to that museum and heard a father tell his son that he'd seen the (now disassembled) K4 running not that terribly long ago during its brief excursion timeframe. The son didn't believe him, looking at the state of it now. I'm told the son said, "Dad, there's no way this thing was running anytime in the last 50 years, just look at it." I know a couple of younger trains fans who refuse to believe it was ever running once it got removed from Horseshoe Curve!

Politics is one of the most corrosive environments on the planet...and here's the proof, if nothing else!

George,

  Thanks for posting this. I've been to Horseshoe Curve several times, but never made it to the Museum. I wanted to, but I never had the time. Now, I have no desire to visit as it is now.

  If I were a Pennsylvania resident (I'm not) and your tax money supports this place, you may want to bend the ear of your favorite politician.

  Very sad and disturbing.

  Tom 

I don't think the is any tax money involved but there were grants-I think. As a life-long resident o Pa. I will say that politics and wasting money ar part of everything done here. I call Harrisburg "Ali Baba and the 40 thieves".

That is horrible! that equipment needs to go to a place that will get it looking better.

Where is the rest of the K4?

State run museum explanes a lot. zzzzzzzzzzzzz 

Really sad

Very sad to see. Anybody here on the forum have any contacts there to find out what's going on and what they are up too.

Grants come from taxes, be they local, state, or federal. 

Don

The conduct of the Railroaders Museum with regard to PRR K4s #1361 has been the subject of several articles in the PRRT&HS' Keystone publication. 

I think that conduct should be the subject of a criminal investigation.

As for the state of the rolling stock, I am considering a letter to Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission.  Their address is:  300 North St, Harrisburg, PA 17120.

Maybe those of us who are Pennsylvania residents could all write letters to the Museum Commission.  The state of those cars is sickening.  These are one of kind artifacts and they are deteriorating right in front of our eyes.  And obviously, the Altoona Museum couldn't care less.

George

John, I don't think we should tar all the PA museums with this brush.  The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania (in Strasburg) does an excellent job of restoring and preserving rolling stock.

It's just this one that has totally dropped the ball.

George

Good evening, George thanks for posting the pictures of your trip to the museum.

Up until I saw your photos I was not sure where the K4s boiler and other items where located.

It's a shame that an engine that was the pride of the Pennsy fleet survived all these years and all of this disarray and can't be put back together enough for just a static display.

Even it won't steam you could still hook air to it and at least blow the Pennsy whistle !!!!!

This would be worth more than what they have now.

I was going thru some pictures at my dads house and come across a picture of my sister and brother and myself standing next to the K4s when she was at Horseshoe Curve.

Can't see much other than the drivers but to me it is still a great shot.

With the engine back in Altoona and the fact they have a permanent home for the engine maybe something will come together to get her back on her wheels.

We can only hope !!!!!

For what it's worth, poor old 1361 was really worn out when she was placed on display at the famous Horseshoe Curve, primarily as a result of finishing her career on the difficult New York and Long Branch RR. The K4s that SHOULD have been restored, from day one, is the K4s currently in the PRR Museum across the street from the Strasburg Rail Road, i.e. #3750.

There is a lot of rust at Steamtown as well. I remember that Steamtown had a Pennsy engine yanked and sent to Altoona because it was over budget, and far from completion.

Don

Well, not really. The PRR locomotive you are referring to is indeed the 1361, which has been the "property" of the folks in Altoona ever since it was placed at the Horseshoe Curve. The folks in Altoona contracted with Steamtown to "rebuild" 1361, and provided all the funds (well over a million dollars). Things went in the toilet over the years, and Steamtown pretty much wanted the 1361 "out of there", so it has been moved in pieces back to Altoona. The outside contractors that worked on 1361 while at Steamtown must have made a few dollars off the whole mess.

I actually quite enjoyed the museum. So much so that I'm taking my family back this Fall. I'm not sure what the deal is with letting the equipment deteriorate, but my understanding was that all of their focus was on the roundhouse and the building next to it. I was told that they needed to finish the buildings before they could start work on the rolling stock.

I'm a PRR fan so it was just nice to see it. I've not been to the RR museum of PA as it is a pretty far drive from Cleveland, Oh. Perhaps we should just take the time an go there instead?

Too bad.  It really does come down to money, and I bet this particular museum simply does not have enough of it.  I doubt q million bucks is enough to restore a K4 to operating condition, but I would not be surprised if somebody got paid for either poor or no work.

Some state run museums work - come see ours here in sunny California!

I was told by a friend at Strassburg that over 1.7 million dollars (WOW!) of taxpayer money was spent on the K4, no accounting of the money has ever been made, and now there seem to be many missing parts, the engine is in pieces in several different locations. Nobody seems to know where all the parts are and all the brass bearings and wedges have disappeared, as well as many gauges, presumably scrapped by some enterprising fellow, and they were not inventoried when the engine was disassembled.

Yes, yes, YES! A millions times YES!

You can thank me later.

Very sad to see the condition of the rolling stock. As for 1361, at least as a static display people could see her and appreciate the engine. As she stands now, no one can appreciate the beauty and power of the K4.

Sadly we will be waiting a long time for any restoration efforts, what with all the bad taste this has left with everybody involved.  Tragic !

As I saw on another forum, if you are so committed to PRR steam, why not support the Railroad Museum of Long Island's efforts to return their Long Island G5 #39 to service on the Strasburg Rail Road. Surely they need all the help they can get to revive a beautiful locomotive.  Also, not far from York is the Williams Grove Steam Engine Association that has operating PRR 0-6-0 #643. 

i was there a several years ago and they closed the museum early as they had a concert on the grounds and i drove from west Tennessee to see it. lets see a railroad museum or a rock concert venue???????? but looking at the condition of the equipment there i guess the rock concert venue is what they are shooting for! and the grill in the tender really??

the curator should be replaced if he can't handle the job!!!!! or maybe the curator of the RR MUSEUM OF Pennsylvania can teach him the value  of this equipment before its too late.

That place has been totally dysfunctional for as long as I can remember. A few years ago a local business man had a 2 yr. agreement to run the the EBT and the museum. He advertised them and promoted them but at the end of 2 yrs it was over.  There is something screwy somewhere because nothing works.

what needs to be done is everyone should call the curator and the governor and ask them why they a wasting tax payers money????? as  my dad used to say "if you can't handle the job why take it? obviously that is the case here!!!

There is an article online about the current CEO of the museum, hired when the entire board was forced to resign in 2002, who admits (1) he is an acountant with no interest in trains (2) considers himself to be running an "attraction", much like disneyworld, and rock bands, car shows etc. are means to attract tourist money. He is very proud of turning the heavyweight car into a bandstand and the barbecue in the tender! He has no mechanical expertise or railroad background whatsoever. He marches to a different drummer. Despite having hundreds of square feet of vacant space in the building it hasn't occurred to him to rent space to a hobby shop specializing in railroad models. The condition of some of that equipment outside is simply unacceptable, by any standard. He has been in charge for several years, since 2002. The "roundhouse" seems to be a complete boondoggle.

judging by these pics, he's not doing a very good job of running this attraction.

Here is an article from 2002 when they were having problems, which Tommy mentioned: 

http://old.post-gazette.com/lo.../20020602museum3.asp

Tom 

Here is another one, from 2008, where the director of the Museum says the boiler should be done in 9-14 months.

http://www.altoonamirror.com/p...etail/id/507531.html

Tommy, I don't see the article you mentioned. Can you post a link for that?

Tom

Wow. What a complete unmitigated disaster!

I cannot tell you how ashamed I am to see this. The pride of the Pennsylvania RR going to H&ll and a Hand basket.

I agree there needs to be a criminal investigation of what happened.

It's a shame because on my bucket list was to take my son here and visit.

I think the tax payers really need to speak out on this one.

It only takes a tarp draped over the passenger cars to save them from the environment until they can be painted...

For what it's worth, the GG-1, Mountain View, Loretto and the little saddle tank Nancy are all in the roundhouse, which is open, now (we were there Sunday.) There were also a lot of tools and parts bins around Mountain View, but no one was around to explain what they were doing. 1361 parts were indeed laid out on the floor and there were multiple chalked work notations of unknown origin. 

We went into the museum. There was a thank-you note to a local contractor for fixing some of the lobby displays. We noticed that the lights all worked and the theater was playing a movie we hadn't seen.

Save the chooches.....Scrap the people !

For what it's worth I don't see that the Railroaders Memorial Museum is a publically owned (i.e. taxpayer funded) museum.

It is likely a privately operated non-profit though it may be city-owned (I think Altoona is a city form of government).

With that said, unless the paid staff is using museum funds for personal gain, the museum is simply a victim of not enough money. 

And with governments at local, state and federal level running massive deficits one has to ask where the funding is supposed to come from.

Bottom line is that most privately operated (and public) museums are a function of their volunteer staff and their contributions, both public and private.   

BTW, there is MUCH more to stabilizing and preserving railroad equipment.  Most, if not all, is painted with lead based paints and some contain other hazardous materials.    Stabilizing them is one task, but restoring them is very costly and involves not time and labor but a myriad of environmental laws and regulations.