Todays lumber

What type of lumber did you use for the framing ?   It can be difficult to get framing lumber, 2x4s, 2x6s, 2x8s, etc that are and will remain perfectly true.  Even kiln dried lumber can move and twist.  White pine boards, 1x4s, 1x6s, 1x8s will be more stable.  Better yet, glued up stock, that is the type you will see that is made from shorter pieces of 1x material, will be the most stable.  It's available primed at Home Depot and Lowes or any good lumber yard.  

If the lumber you have has not twisted, it can be straightened on a table saw, easier than it can on a joiner.  Have a look at this video.

https://youtu.be/9rS_Q7fu5rM

MOISTURE & DRYNESS plays havoc on our lumber in our train tables  !

it is no fun !    It does not help when you go to places that have lumber with more curves than women have !

Good luck ! 

If you are using 2X lumber for the framing, you could straighten them with a table saw like Dan said.  If you are using 1X lumber for framing, you could straighten them the same way or make them into L girders. You could also put shims between the plywood and the framing to make adjacent tables level.  There are also better grades of lumber in both 2X and 1X.  I have used clear 1X pine to make pine cabinets.  More expensive, but the clear pine at Home Depot is fairly reasonable.

Out here in CA, the Home Depot has the worst lumber available (as told to me by my friend who has been a contractor for 55 years). The bonafied lumber yard across the street has better lumber at a lower cost than HD.

I can only guess you used construction grade lumber here.  if that's the case the title of the thread seems a bit misleading as for my entire life there has never been a time when construction grade lumber was straight and true.  

I don't know how to put this nicely, but I'll try my best.  It's not the lumber's fault if the carpenter doesn't know what they are doing.  There are a number of ways to true-up lumber, or ways to avoid having to do so to get a level surface.  for a beginner I would recommend using strips of plywood rather than using 2x lumber as it will typically be a lot easier to work with and won't bow or twist.  You can cut nice, square, strips with nothing more than a circular saw and a long piece of scrap steel or aluminum and a couple clamps.  

For the tables you have already built, I'd try using shims under the surface to level them somewhat.  Once the surface has been leveled you can use a sub-floor adhesive, construction adhesive, or expansion foam to fill the gaps between frame and table top and hold everything in place.  

JGL

Today's lumber is junk. You have to be extra careful picking it out and then let it dry out before using it. When I bought this house 32 yrs ago I bought a bunch of lumber and still have some in the garage so I can compare.

I always check the boards at HD or Loews before buying them.  Make sure the lumber is completely dry to the touch.   I use the concrete floor as a level and check all sides.  I may go through many, many boards to select what i need.  Just dont compromise.  If they ask me what I'm doing I tell them or show them.  

Then, it's best to use them fairly soon and do not let them get hot or in the sunlight.   Treated lumber and cedar are the worst for twist/curve.

I think the attic of my house was made from specially selected wood like you have.  I just figure Salvador Dali was on the crew that day and shrug it off.

You have to be very careful buying pine lumber from the big box stores.  I swear some of it still has squirrels running around on it.  Bite the bullet and buy a hand planer.  Amazon has a Porter-Cable unit for $60.00.  I've had one for years and use it to dress my lumber.  Good luck.

"The tops of the tables are so unlevel they are not usable...." 

Wow. Bummer. I have never had that experience; My layout(s) were built with common 1X4's and ordinary plywood (no L-girders or anything like that) 20 - 25 years ago and I did not run into anything but incidental ups-and-downs. I've only built 2 layouts in my life, though (I don't like doing it).

Your experience sounds like you used really low-grade lumber, but I don't get the impression that you did. I took no special care building mine, beyond common-sense measure twice, cut once. Sympathies. Save the better pieces and go buy some more - checking straightness at the lumber yard.

BTW - I have made 2 major additions to the layout in the last 6 - 7 years - a turntable/roundhouse/engine area and a classification yard across an aisle from it, and the new 1X4's seemed as straight as the "old" ones.

JohnGaltLine posted:

I can only guess you used construction grade lumber here.  if that's the case the title of the thread seems a bit misleading as for my entire life there has never been a time when construction grade lumber was straight and true.  

I don't know how to put this nicely, but I'll try my best.  It's not the lumber's fault if the carpenter doesn't know what they are doing.  There are a number of ways to true-up lumber, or ways to avoid having to do so to get a level surface.  for a beginner I would recommend using strips of plywood rather than using 2x lumber as it will typically be a lot easier to work with and won't bow or twist.  You can cut nice, square, strips with nothing more than a circular saw and a long piece of scrap steel or aluminum and a couple clamps.  

For the tables you have already built, I'd try using shims under the surface to level them somewhat.  Once the surface has been leveled you can use a sub-floor adhesive, construction adhesive, or expansion foam to fill the gaps between frame and table top and hold everything in place.  

JGL

John, I bought framing lumber as that is all you can get around here. I did try shimming it but that didn't work out either. I do have a nice older Delta table saw.

D500 posted:

"The tops of the tables are so unlevel they are not usable...." 

Wow. Bummer. I have never had that experience; My layout(s) were built with common 1X4's and ordinary plywood (no L-girders or anything like that) 20 - 25 years ago and I did not run into anything but incidental ups-and-downs. I've only built 2 layouts in my life, though (I don't like doing it).

Your experience sounds like you used really low-grade lumber, but I don't get the impression that you did. I took no special care building mine, beyond common-sense measure twice, cut once. Sympathies. Save the better pieces and go buy some more - checking straightness at the lumber yard.

BTW - I have made 2 major additions to the layout in the last 6 - 7 years - a turntable/roundhouse/engine area and a classification yard across an aisle from it, and the new 1X4's seemed as straight as the "old" ones.

I bought the best 2x4's and 1x4's i could find.

Dan Padova posted:

What type of lumber did you use for the framing ?   It can be difficult to get framing lumber, 2x4s, 2x6s, 2x8s, etc that are and will remain perfectly true.  Even kiln dried lumber can move and twist.  White pine boards, 1x4s, 1x6s, 1x8s will be more stable.  Better yet, glued up stock, that is the type you will see that is made from shorter pieces of 1x material, will be the most stable.  It's available primed at Home Depot and Lowes or any good lumber yard.  

If the lumber you have has not twisted, it can be straightened on a table saw, easier than it can on a joiner.  Have a look at this video.

https://youtu.be/9rS_Q7fu5rM

I used 2x4's and 1x4's the best i could find at a local lumber yard.

feet posted:

D500 posted:

"The tops of the tables are so unlevel they are not usable...." 

Wow. Bummer. I have never had that experience; My layout(s) were built with common 1X4's and ordinary plywood (no L-girders or anything like that) 20 - 25 years ago and I did not run into anything but incidental ups-and-downs. I've only built 2 layouts in my life, though (I don't like doing it).

Your experience sounds like you used really low-grade lumber, but I don't get the impression that you did. I took no special care building mine, beyond common-sense measure twice, cut once. Sympathies. Save the better pieces and go buy some more - checking straightness at the lumber yard.

BTW - I have made 2 major additions to the layout in the last 6 - 7 years - a turntable/roundhouse/engine area and a classification yard across an aisle from it, and the new 1X4's seemed as straight as the "old" ones.

I bought the best 2x4's and 1x4's i could find.

For what it's worth, our layout does NOT have a single 2"X4" in the whole thing. We used nothing but 1"X4" with a 1"X2" stiffener glued/screw on one edge (L girder). Even all the legs are 1"X4" glued/screwed together, instead of 2"X4"s. The whole thing is MUCH stronger.

Was the lumber wet when you bought it ??  Should let it dry out for a week. Pile it up so the ai can circulate it.  Besides going through all the stuff at Lowe's or HD not much else you can do. try to find lumber they just put out and pick the best before others do.  HD seems to have the best around here. I guess I am a little lucky because I have 3 Lowe's and two HDs relatively close. A couple of years ago I built a project and I knew the lumber had set out so I stacked it in the LR. Amazing how much moisture came out.

To me it would be worth the drive to get exactly what you want.  Before HD and Lowes came we had a lumber company with eight locations in the city.   They proudly had a sign at the entrance to the lumber yard that said "You Ain'the Picking ".   Homers and Handy Dan would let you pick.  Consequently, they quickly put them out of business when they came to town.

jim pastorius posted:

Was the lumber wet when you bought it ??  Should let it dry out for a week. Pile it up so the ai can circulate it.  Besides going through all the stuff at Lowe's or HD not much else you can do. try to find lumber they just put out and pick the best before others do.  HD seems to have the best around here. I guess I am a little lucky because I have 3 Lowe's and two HDs relatively close. A couple of years ago I built a project and I knew the lumber had set out so I stacked it in the LR. Amazing how much moisture came out.

The lumber was dry and i stacked it in my train building that is heated. I think you hit the nail on the head. I'd just about bet this stuff wasn't completely dry.

I've seen a few layouts built with 3/4 inch lumber core plywood ripped into 3 inch strips in lieu of 1X3's or other dimensional lumber.

Agree with Johngaltline and Aussteve.  I have built four layouts, and one thing is for sure-you ain't gonna get straight lumber 'cause it doesn't exist.  I agree that you should pick through the stock until you find some that are reasonably straight.  This may take awhile.  The supports are not critical, the tops are.

For my large shelf layout, I wanted the boards to look like the finished wood it would be screwed to.  I sanded, stained, sealed and sanded three times, then triple-doweled them to keep them as straight as possible.  I achieved a success that could be deemed more than reasonable.  Anyway, the bottoms (of the shelves) shine like a baby's butt.

For the table layout, I simply screwed them down to the 2X4 framework.  I prefer pine to plywood, but agree that plywood is best for the large surface areas.

The shelf has remained, as assembled, for two years.  The table hasn't moved a bit in eight.

Good luck,

Jerry

Most of the lumber we buy for train table's would be designated SPF, avoid the F - fir douglass and white fir doug fir is strong but brittle, white fir will twist and turn and is useless for layout building.

P - pine southern yellow pine is junk for our purposes it's mostly used for trusses and treated lumber. White pine is great it's what we use for stair stock and thats why its so expensive. 

S - spruce is good stuff soft strong and stays true. Buy your lumber at a lumber yard that pros use.

Lumber is the same as its always been........... just need to know what to buy.

Jointer or hand plane would be ideal to flatten warped boards.  A tablesaw can be dangerous if you don't have at least one completely flat side.  You can make jigs for the tablesaw.  Similar jigs can be used for thickness planers.  I even have a jig that allows for a plunge router to be used.  

I agree when it comes to moisture content.  I have a moisture meter at home and I won't use any lumber that's above 15% with the exception being treated lumber.  Also, keep an eye on moisture content in the train room,  I need a dehumidifier in the warmer months.    

You should be able to build the tables with nothing more that some ripped 1/2 inch plywood.

TN posted:

Most of the lumber we buy for train table's would be designated SPF, avoid the F - fir douglass and white fir doug fir is strong but brittle, white fir will twist and turn and is useless for layout building.

P - pine southern yellow pine is junk for our purposes it's mostly used for trusses and treated lumber. White pine is great it's what we use for stair stock and thats why its so expensive. 

S - spruce is good stuff soft strong and stays true. Buy your lumber at a lumber yard that pros use.

Lumber is the same as its always been........... just need to know what to buy.

I beg to differ.  The lumber sold today and for quite some time now, is basically "farmed" lumber.  Seedlings are planted, then harvested twenty, thirty or more years in the future.  These trees are fast growing, meaning the sap wood takes up more of the volume in a piece of lumber.  

Old growth lumber, on the other hand, has much less sap wood.  The growth rings are so close to each other it's hard to count them.  In my career as a carpenter, working on historic restoration projects, i have been able to salvage alot of the boards that came out of these buildings.  What a pleasure to work with.  And it was all straight.  

Dan Padova posted:

TN posted:

Most of the lumber we buy for train table's would be designated SPF, avoid the F - fir douglass and white fir doug fir is strong but brittle, white fir will twist and turn and is useless for layout building.

P - pine southern yellow pine is junk for our purposes it's mostly used for trusses and treated lumber. White pine is great it's what we use for stair stock and thats why its so expensive. 

S - spruce is good stuff soft strong and stays true. Buy your lumber at a lumber yard that pros use.

Lumber is the same as its always been........... just need to know what to buy.

I beg to differ.  The lumber sold today and for quite some time now, is basically "farmed" lumber.  Seedlings are planted, then harvested twenty, thirty or more years in the future.  These trees are fast growing, meaning the sap wood takes up more of the volume in a piece of lumber.  

Old growth lumber, on the other hand, has much less sap wood.  The growth rings are so close to each other it's hard to count them.  In my career as a carpenter, working on historic restoration projects, i have been able to salvage alot of the boards that came out of these buildings.  What a pleasure to work with.  And it was all straight.  

I'm sure you're correct... on the same line a few years ago I remodeled my parents home and hung new interior "birch veneer" doors with what appeared to be standard clear pine (not finger jointed) frames.   

I've NEVER in my life seen such hard wood as the frames.  It was like nailing oak - just about every finishing nail I put in them bent.   Later I read that some "soft' wood was imported South American species.   This stuff was like nailing through steel. (and yes I know that the quality of today's imported steel nails is lousy compared to domestically produced ones in the days of yore).

I have to agree with "Hot Water". I do not have one (1) piece of a 2x. My legs are 1x glued and screwed and also L gridered with 1/2 ply for braces and gussets. Not only is that table extremely strong but lighter than constructed with 2x.---just saying---

I never considered using store bought pine for my layout structure.  I have seen it move excessively in a matter of hours.  I usually refer to pine boards as "crating lumber."   The only pine that I will use for any critical project is reclaimed sugar pine.    

I have the good fortune of having a large sawmill just a few minutes from our home.  I was able to select and purchase kiln dried rough cut poplar for the layout structure.  Being that I have a complete woodworking shop, I was able to mill the boards to my specifications.  Buying direct from the sawmill is a great way to get good lumber at a reasonable price. Granted, I had to spend my time surfacing the boards.  But in the end, I had nice, clear, straight boards to work with.  Maybe a little overkill, but I'm happy with the results.

Tom

Dan Padova posted:

TN posted:

Most of the lumber we buy for train table's would be designated SPF, avoid the F - fir douglass and white fir doug fir is strong but brittle, white fir will twist and turn and is useless for layout building.

P - pine southern yellow pine is junk for our purposes it's mostly used for trusses and treated lumber. White pine is great it's what we use for stair stock and thats why its so expensive. 

S - spruce is good stuff soft strong and stays true. Buy your lumber at a lumber yard that pros use.

Lumber is the same as its always been........... just need to know what to buy.

I beg to differ.  The lumber sold today and for quite some time now, is basically "farmed" lumber.  Seedlings are planted, then harvested twenty, thirty or more years in the future.  These trees are fast growing, meaning the sap wood takes up more of the volume in a piece of lumber.  

Old growth lumber, on the other hand, has much less sap wood.  The growth rings are so close to each other it's hard to count them.  In my career as a carpenter, working on historic restoration projects, i have been able to salvage alot of the boards that came out of these buildings.  What a pleasure to work with.  And it was all straight.  

That's a common misconception very little if any farmed lumber is used for framing. Most of the farmed wood is turned into paper products , panels like mdf,osb and engineered beams.......etc . There is a big difference between farmed lumber and managed forest products. Most farmed lumber is grown in warmer climates for a longer growing season using weedy species. 

Lumber yards stock Canadian and Northwestern US managed forest products and of course there's Menards who started out as lumber yard and know what they're doing plus I can load up my trucks and not a cart.

Tom N 

No one has considered using metal studs.  It's dead straight and will never twist or warp.  It's fairly cheap (3 5/8" X 8' @ $4.79 & 10' @ $5.48).  It's easy to work with a little practice and already comes with knock-outs for your wiring. When I was a contractor I used tons of it for all sorts of construction. I'm really considering using it for my upcoming bench work.  Here's a sample of what you can do with it.  Just think your grid work could be your COMMON LEAD.   Think outside the envelope.

I talked to the man at the lumber yard today.  He told me most of the lumber is coming from tree farms as TN posted. He told me to go to a sawmill and buy poplar. I am going to check into that option. Thanks to everyone that has replied.

wild mary posted:

No one has considered using metal studs.  It's dead straight and will never twist or warp.  It's fairly cheap (3 5/8" X 8' @ $4.79 & 10' @ $5.48).  It's easy to work with a little practice and already comes with knock-outs for your wiring. When I was a contractor I used tons of it for all sorts of construction. I'm really considering using it for my upcoming bench work.  Here's a sample of what you can do with it.  Just think your grid work could be your COMMON LEAD.   Think outside the envelope.

 

I thought about using that too. Can you bolt it together? This maybe the way to go.

feet posted

 

I thought about using that too. Can you bolt it together? This maybe the way to go.

There are special self taping screws that are used.  They are quite easy to use with your drill and a #2 phillips bit.

For cutting I use my powered miter saw with a metal cutting blade but a good pair of straight cuts tin snips works great.  Google metal stud installation and there will be loads of vids showing you how easy it is.

Good thread, thanks to all who contributed.   I used 2" X 4" White fir framing, purchased in longer lengths,  then cut.   I was O. K.  with the material and the installation.

TN posted:

Lumber is the same as its always been........... just need to know what to buy.

Not literally true:  timber management practices have been hit-and-miss over the years, and the resulting lumber shows the low percentage of the best timber. 

When a boy, my father lived in a two-story house in rural SE Missouri.  This was long before the days of sheetrock, and house was trimmed in stained hardwood.  There was not a single knot anywhere, much less a warp or twist.

Were I to build a new train table, I would purchase sheet goods (like plywood or OSB) and have it ripped into 4 or 6 inch planks and use that for framing.
I have thought about sistering a 4 inch and 6 inch plank and putting the top on the 4 inch part, with the 6 inch part to the outside to make a lip.

I built a nice flat L-girder table. Now I spend all my time putting hills on it.

Some of the distinctions being tossed about such as farmed vs. managed lumber are just matters of semantics and essentially mean the same thing. And lumber today is NOT the same as yesterday's lumber and the difference is less related to sapwood vs. heartwood than it is the age and size of the trees when harvested and the resulting radius of the growth rings. How the wood is milled is also a factor. A piece of wood shrinks and swells at different rates along its various planes. Movement is greatest along the circumference of its rings. That is why a cut cross section of trunk, or "tree cookie" often used for craft projects, splits in one or more places as it dries. On old growth wood, not only are the rings closer together, which makes for stronger wood, but the the larger trees have a larger or "flatter" radius, resulting in less warping as it seasons. This is why antique table tops are often seen made from wider boards than those made today, which must be edge-joined out of narrower boards to minimize warping. If you look at the ends of a board and you see a distinct curve to the rings, you have wood that will likely curve or warp with humidity changes.

While wood from trees harvested at a smaller size to meet today's demand have more issues than old growth timber, the method used to mill the logs can make a huge difference. Construction grade lumber is normally milled by a method called plainsawing, which results in the less waste, but the poorest performing lumber. But for structural framing, it is "good enough". If you must use 2x4s, I'd suggest you dig through the pile looking for boards that were quartersawn or riftsawn. Doing a web search on those terms will give better visuals than I can describe. The best solution has been given multiple times in previous posts. L-girder construction using standard pine boards will be much more stable and more than strong enough. Poplar is nice but not necessary. Just don't use the cheapest grade of pine. Knotty pine is great for paneling but not for framing!

Over the years, the availability of warp-free sticks in the big box stores has been a problem.  Because buyers can pick through the lumber. what is loose on the top and front of the stacks has been rejected by previous buyers.  I will pass on a purchase if the available stock is junk, but will load up for future projects if I can find a few good pieces.  The weeks that pass before use allows the lumber to further air dry and I can reject any piece that warps while drying.

If you grab a batch of 2x4s at the store and start cutting and assembling, you are asking for trouble.  Even 1x4s will change shape ... the clear New Zealand pine (Monterey pine) found at H.D. looks great on the rack but can change shape after cutting.  Let the lumber rest before trimming it and using it in any applications needing critical straightness.  The bigger the stock, the longer the air drying required.

WRT poplar, I have learned to cut oversize and let it sit for a couple of days as it is notorious for changing shape.

TN posted:

Dan Padova posted:

TN posted:

Most of the lumber we buy for train table's would be designated SPF, avoid the F - fir douglass and white fir doug fir is strong but brittle, white fir will twist and turn and is useless for layout building.

P - pine southern yellow pine is junk for our purposes it's mostly used for trusses and treated lumber. White pine is great it's what we use for stair stock and thats why its so expensive. 

S - spruce is good stuff soft strong and stays true. Buy your lumber at a lumber yard that pros use.

Lumber is the same as its always been........... just need to know what to buy.

I beg to differ.  The lumber sold today and for quite some time now, is basically "farmed" lumber.  Seedlings are planted, then harvested twenty, thirty or more years in the future.  These trees are fast growing, meaning the sap wood takes up more of the volume in a piece of lumber.  

Old growth lumber, on the other hand, has much less sap wood.  The growth rings are so close to each other it's hard to count them.  In my career as a carpenter, working on historic restoration projects, i have been able to salvage alot of the boards that came out of these buildings.  What a pleasure to work with.  And it was all straight.  

That's a common misconception very little if any farmed lumber is used for framing. Most of the farmed wood is turned into paper products , panels like mdf,osb and engineered beams.......etc . There is a big difference between farmed lumber and managed forest products. Most farmed lumber is grown in warmer climates for a longer growing season using weedy species. 

Lumber yards stock Canadian and Northwestern US managed forest products and of course there's Menards who started out as lumber yard and know what they're doing plus I can load up my trucks and not a cart.

 

Tom N 

 

I stand partially corrected.  The terminology can be misleading.  I used "farmed" instead of "managed".  I guess I didn't see the difference.  

Tom Densel posted:

I never considered using store bought pine for my layout structure.  I have seen it move excessively in a matter of hours.  I usually refer to pine boards as "crating lumber."   The only pine that I will use for any critical project is reclaimed sugar pine.    

I have the good fortune of having a large sawmill just a few minutes from our home.  I was able to select and purchase kiln dried rough cut poplar for the layout structure.  Being that I have a complete woodworking shop, I was able to mill the boards to my specifications.  Buying direct from the sawmill is a great way to get good lumber at a reasonable price. Granted, I had to spend my time surfacing the boards.  But in the end, I had nice, clear, straight boards to work with.  Maybe a little overkill, but I'm happy with the results.

Tom

Poplar.  Now theres a lumber species that we should all think about using for framework.  It's virtually knot free, dry and very stable.  

wild mary posted:

No one has considered using metal studs.  It's dead straight and will never twist or warp.  It's fairly cheap (3 5/8" X 8' @ $4.79 & 10' @ $5.48).  It's easy to work with a little practice and already comes with knock-outs for your wiring. When I was a contractor I used tons of it for all sorts of construction. I'm really considering using it for my upcoming bench work.  Here's a sample of what you can do with it.  Just think your grid work could be your COMMON LEAD.   Think outside the envelope.

 

Good point.  I've worked with metal studs most of my career.  For renovations i prefer them for the very reasons you stated.  There's no waste !   They're light !   And the common ground idea is fantastic !   

For a novice who has never worked with metal studs, they can be intimidating.  It's not each piece that holds the strength, but the whole assembly that becomes amazingly strong once assembled.  There are a few tricks to building with metal studs, but with a bit of practice and trial and error, anyone with mechanical skills can get the hang of it.  

Once, on a job at Irvine Auditorium at the University of Pennsylvania, we had to make long column like structures using 6" metal studs, screwed together forming a box beam.  There were two crews, each building their own column.  My crew, thanks to my expert experience, if I may toot my own horn, built ours perfectly straight, while the other crew, led by the foreman, made theirs which turned out to be twisted.  They hadn't taken into account that metal studs are flexible and need to be coaxed along as the structure was being assembled.