Too Many Engines at Power Up?

Pat,

In my experience, 5 engines powering up in DCS mode is about the limit at power-up. I haver always seen this as a power limitation rather than a DCS-imposed limit.

In order to test this theory, it would be necessary to set up a TIU channel in Passive TIU mode with more than 10 amps of power directly connected to the track.

Thanks, Barry.  I don't have a source of power that will provide more than 10 amps, so I can't verify your theory.  I think I will try to split up the power districts and spread them over other channels. 

A semantic issue:  I always considered that power districts were areas fed by one transformer, and could include several TIU channels, and that the single sections of track controlled by a toggle switch are blocks.

I'm sure I have had more than 5 locos on a single TIU circuit power up at once with no problems, but I'll check again.  I am certain that I have had more than 5 locos powered up at the same time on a single channel.

Robert:

Maybe I used the term "power district" incorrectly, but you and Barry both understood anyway.  It's more than 5 engines on one channel, each in a different "block" at power up on that channel.  I'm anxious to see what you find, especially after the result below.

Barry:

I have an old Right-of-Way power supply, not sure of the output, but I suspect it is easily capable of more than 10 amps.  I think Marty told me I could weld with it.  I connected it to the output side of the TIU channel that powers my hidden staging (after disconnecting the input from the Z4K) and upon power up of that channel, after a read, my phone showed in the active list all 7 of the engines currently parked in the hidden storage.  Looks like you nailed it again.  Doesn't it get old?

Thanks again.

Pat,

Looks like you nailed it again.  Doesn't it get old?

Never!

Barry:

FWIW, I tried connecting one of my Z4K outputs to the channel that powers my hidden staging in passive mode and all 7 locos show up in the active list after a read with my phone.  The good news, I guess is that I can use this one channel in passive mode, since it's the only place I'm likely to need to power up so many engines at once, and leave all the others wired normally, retaining the Emergency Stop capability.  I'm hoping that will work OK, since I haven't tested it yet.

Thanks again for your help.

Pat,

Pat, I'm not quite sure about what your experiencing, or what I should be looking for.  I assume you're talking about using a remote, not a WIU.

If I apply power to an area with, say, 8 locos, the watchdog should keep them from starting up, but the locos' systems come on, ready to be started up.  Having <99 locos, I don't have any inactive unless a grandchild has hit the READ button.

I don't know what you mean by DCS won't "recognize" more than 5.

Robert,

What Pat is describing is the situation where he has 8 DCS (PS2/PS3) engines sitting on tracks that all receive power simultaneously when a TIU channel is powered-on. At that time, at least some of these engines come up in conventional mode as opposed to DCS mode.

Based upon his experiment, i.e., putting the channel into Passive TIU mode by removing the Z4000 connection from the TIU channel's inputs and directly connecting a more powerful transformer to the tracks directly, the TIU channel can then bring up all 8 engines in DCS mode when the channel is back-fed power from the tracks.

This would tend to validate my "theory" that it's a lack of available power that sometimes causes the issue that Pat was experiencing.

How was the dcs signal on each track? Did it lower each time a track was powered up?

I was able to get to my layout this morning.  I moved 7 locos into my main yard, which is powered by a Lionel Powerhouse 180 feeding through a single TIU variable channel set to fixed (passes power as soon as transformer feeds it).  I turned the powerhouse off and let the layout sit for a few minutes.  Turned on the powerhouse switch, and all 7 locos clicked; none started up or made any noise or lights.  On the remote, each loco was in the active list, where it had been, and each started when I pressed startup.  Shut the powerhouse down and after a few minutes turned it back on.  One loco, a factory steam PS3, started up in DCS mode; the other 6 just clicked and stayed dark and silent.  I powered up my tablet---MTH app was not then running---and set it to connect with the WIU (I use MTH net, not house net).  I then opened the app, and it did its initial read.  All 7 locos, plus some elsewhere on the layout, were on the active list, and when I selected them and pressed START, they started in command mode.

So whatever problem you have, Pat, I don't. 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Pat,

In my experience, 5 engines powering up in DCS mode is about the limit at power-up. I haver always seen this as a power limitation rather than a DCS-imposed limit.

In order to test this theory, it would be necessary to set up a TIU channel in Passive TIU mode with more than 10 amps of power directly connected to the track.

Seems like that is the scenero on the CL&W ... sometimes I can get more to power up, but it's hit and miss.  Maybe not enough electrons left to tickle the circuits in the locomotives more than 5 or 6?

Some might power up in Conventional, like the watchdog signal "ran out of energy", along with the rest which just click up.  Just select that one or two and shut them down.

Currently nine locomotives are sitting on the #1 siding, in temporary storage, and this will happen on that track.

Once in a while all will catch the watchdog and not start up, if I ramp up the power slowly enough.  Too fast and one or two miss it.

Some stranded in inactive will magically end up in active after one or two powerup/down cycles.

None are coming up in conventional.  What i was describing is that with more than 5 engines sitting on track powered by one TIU channel, only 5 will be active if I issue a read command.  If, instead of "read", I try to start up the engines in DCS, 5 will start up normally and the rest will show "engine not on track" when pressing "start up".  If I use my phone through the WIU, the same 5 engines will be in the active list and the others will be inactive.

Rewiring the 2 channels that power areas of my layout where lots of engines are parked, to passive mode (see Barry's book for an explanation of passive mode) I have MUCH better results.  Today I tried one channel that powers my roundhouse tracks, where normally most or all of the tracks are toggled off, with 13 engines sitting on powered tracks and all 13 were able to be started up in DCS with no error messages.  Likewise, all 13 showed up as "active" when I did a read with my phone through the WIU.

Interestingly, I have 2 Proto2 engines that are still unhappy about being included in large groups started up simultaneously.  Those 2 will require a little additional attention which I don't have time to give right now.  FWIW, those 2 are usually a little finicky.

Thanks again for the help.

"If, instead of "read", I try to start up the engines in DCS, 5 will start up normally and the rest will show "engine not on track" when pressing "start up".  If I use my phone through the WIU, the same 5 engines will be in the active list and the others will be inactive."

As I said above, I didn't get that result, Pat.

One added fact:  the TIU is an original issue Rev G.

I ran one more test today.  I had 6 locos in the yard, all on a variable-set-to-fixed channel fed by the Powerhouse.  I had finally got around to reinstalling the Rev L vice the Rev G.  When I turned power onto the layout, all 6 locos clicked and stayed silent.  Using the All Loco control, I hit startup.  All 6 locos started right up, along with one on another channel of that TIU, fed from the same Powerhouse.

I have a slightly different issue. In my rebuild from running 37 engines simultaneously, I am having only 1 train per loop for my grandsons to run the trains. My bottom layer is a storage facility for the 2nd level to run. The bottom is powered by 1 TIU channel, and consists of two yard Ross 4 ways, and outside O72 loop and an inside 054 loop with the Ross double track X over. The space is 16 by 7 with a 6 by 7 L. I have the following engines on the track: MTH - GS4, NYC Dreyfus, SNFC Orient Express, Reading T1, GN S2, PRR GG1 Newhaven F7 (dual A units separate engines and ids) and PRR 0-6-0: Kline converted to Proto2 - B&O Lt Pacific, NYC J, Reading F7: and Lionel converted to Proto 3 - 4 Truck Shay, WM 3 Truck Shay, Plus Legacy - Big Boy, GN GP9 and the Cass Hessler.  As you can see, 12 MTH engines and three Legacy engines.  None of the Proto 2/3 engines come up in conventional mode and all are silent. Two would come up while the GG1 boards were frying and before it died.  When I pulled the GG1, they all came up properly.  The GG1 now has its new boards and the behavior of all the engines is normal.  The issue now is that when adding a new engine, I have to use a programming track because I can not add one with all 15 engines on the track.  That issue started when I added the 9th MTH engine.  Grade going to the 10 " 2nd level is almost done and more platforms will be added to the 2nd level as well as more storage for my remaining engines.

Winrose, there is vehement disagreement on this forum, even among supergurus, about whether or not only the target loco should be on a powered track when adding it.  I have some 26 locos sitting on the layout at all times.  When adding a loco, I turn off the transformer feeds to all save one of the TIU channels. I turn off the toggles for all but one block (my layout is completely blocked and toggled), and on that block palce the target loco.

I follow the same protocol as RJR.  Essentially, only the loco to be added is on powered track. 

Can engines be added when other engines are on powered tracks ?  Sure, but as Winrose has discovered, adding an engine with no other engines on powered track is faster and more reliable in my experience.  I suspect the issue Winrose related is the same one I experienced, namely, not enough power through the TIU to handle many engines simultaneously at power up.  I also suspect, and maybe Barry will confirm or refute, that this issue could be affected by wiring, things like wire size, length of runs, quality of toggles, etc.

Guys,

Every layout is diffferent and can cause deviations to DCS commands when the system is stressed. I've found that a big stressing factor is a paucity of power when the demand of the total of other engines' power demands exceeds, or gets close to, the limit of the power supplies' capacity.

On my layout, I can add a new DCS engine with as many as 5 or 6 engines sitting, started up or unstarted, on the same TIU channel as the new engine. Other layouts may be able to tolerate more engines and still others may be able to tolerate fewer.

Your mileage may vary.

Just an update.  I picked up my the GE 44 ton and the Led 64 ' Woodsided Passenger Cars.  I added the GE engine and the PRR H3 Consolidated engine and none of the engines missed the watchdog signal. An interesting note is that if I add the aux power to the TIU then the 44 Ton and my GS 4 both start up and miss the watchdog signal.  Without the aux power to the TIU non of my 14 MTH engines miss seeing the watchdog signal.  I have not upgraded my handhelds or TIUs from 4.3 yet.  Also I am using the newest TIU (RevL ?).