Too Many Switches?

I think you're asking good questions.  Certainly I've fallen prey to making a design on paper (or electrons) that didn't work in reality.  I had to remove switches from the plan (fortunately, I didn't buy them all at once).

 

You need to ask yourself some questions:

1. What is/are the goals of the layout?  What do you want to accomplish?
2. How much time do you have?  I can tell you that trying to hold a kid's interest while you build the ultimate layout is tough.  Much better to get something simple down.  A layout with 16 switches has a higher probability of encountering operational troubles than one with fewer turnouts.  And wiring all those switches quickly is a major PITA.

If you are already having second thoughts, you might want to go with your gut and expand slowly and carefully later. 

 

Best of luck,

 

George

I started my layout two years ago. It's a fair size and has 26 switches, all MTH Real Trax. There were a few problems for me in the beginning but they were just little things that a rookie does wrong. With minor tweaking they all work perfectly for me now. 

 

I very much like having all the switches and it gives me endless choices. Be sure to install them correctly and aligned as they should be to connecting track. I have 3 back to back switches that work as they should. 

 

I received my guidance and tips by endless reading here on the forum. Best of luck with your layout, make it the way that makes YOU happy. 

Start simple.  You can always add as you go.  If interest in the layout grows so can the layout grow.  If you buy all those switches and you find you don't really have the time or interest you've spent alot of money for nothing.  But it's your money.

 

Rick

Thanks to everyone for the ideas.  I'm probably going to spend a few days at simplifying the layout and then going from there.   The thought of wiring all of that, while not technically challenging, was worrying me due to the amount of time i knew it would take to do properly.   The urge to take shortcuts just to get finished and start running could cause any number of hair pulling issues down the road.

I have a hard time visualizing 16 switches in the 4.5' x 11' space you described.

 

It's all a matter of personal preference, of course, and there is no "right" or "wrong" about how you elect to configure your layout, but I'm one of those (perhaps one of the few) who really like fairly simple track plans that are well thought out to provide some operational potential without cluttering up the available space.  

 

I also enjoy seeing model railroads have a purpose of some sort, however simple/basic, and that usually involves scenic features, including structures or other features that justify and support the railroad's purpose.  A passing siding or two along with a few industry spurs are really all that's needed to pack a lot of fun and operational potential into a small or relatively small layout.

I also see that 16 switches being quite a challenge to having an enjoyable "runners layout" as opposed to a "switchers' layout.  Putting down your wants and needs ( as in accessories which you want to use)  is a smart start. I do admire, a bit, the staid folks who just use loops.........that's much less work, of course but the easiest plan for a smaller layout such as yours.  Good luck and keep us posted!

@ any--rails   read posts by  g3750, rickc,  allan miller.  now , read them again. maybe one more time. Point im making is take it slow,  see how it goes. You can always expand once u get the feel for what you want / where you are going.  best of luck to you in this great hobby.

WE have a 12x12x12 U layout with only 10 switches. For my kids when the train stops due to.a switch issue is much more if a negative than the cool factor of going through or throwing switches. They really like the bridge and tunnel and where tbe elevated trackcrosses the main line. We started with the intent to have up to 16 switches and after starting the headaches of having that many switches wasnt worth the effort or money.

I agree with Allan.Your going to loose your mind with all those switches in such a small space.You will be un derailing trains all day LOL

I agree it sounds like a lot, but who are we to judge, especially without seeing the design? 

After several years with 25 switches, in a somewhat larger area, my advice is, you need to understand:

(1.) multiple switch wiring, one throw

(2.) automatic electric non-derail wiring

(3.) power routing

(4.) switch throw indication.

(5.) A plus but not necessary.  Controlling all switches via hand held remote with ASC. Accessory Switch Controllers.  

I spent the time and effort to go back on my relatively small layout and add the above to the original switches.  It solved most of the problems you will have.  Both Atlas and Ross have instructions related to the above switch wiring.  My system is Atlas, here are posted links to valuable information.  Click on the underlined phrases to link information on the AtlasO website.

 

(1.) Universal Switch Control Board-Non-Derail Wiring Instructions

(2.) Universal Switch Control Board- Installing the "Power Routing" for Closure Rails.

(3.) Installing the JP-1 Jumper and adding the Atlas 6931 Dwarf Signal or Externa Panel LEDS.

(4.) Adding Turnout Control Indication.

(5.) Using Tortoise Switch Motors with the USCB

(6.) Automatic Reverse Loop Wiring for 2-rail Instructions.

(7.) Powering Switch Frogs and Auto Turnout Control with the USCB

(8.) Installing the Aux Connection J4 for Turnout Indication & 21st Century Signal System

(9.) Typical Non-Derail Wiring with ASC 3000

(10.) Wiring the Double-Slip Switch

(11.) Typical Non-Derail Wiring with MTH AIU

 

The 6924 USCB  (Universal Switch Control Board) was not available when I purchased my original Atlas switches.  There has been a lot of discussion and fixing ever since.

Mike CT  

Note: Ross switches are associated with DZ switch motors/pushbutton controls and relays.   Switching problems can be corrected via additional information and material available from Ross/DZ.     

 

   

 

Mike CT makes some excellent points and provides some terrific reference material.

 

Along with "what is the goal of the layout" another thing to consider is "how do I want to operate it?"

 

Are you going to throw all switches exclusively from a hand held controller?  Sounds good in concept, but it may not be as fast as walking over and pushing a button on the fascia.  Are you going to follow trains around with your hand held or sit in front of a panel to operate?  What will your kid(s) like to do?  Is your layout primarily a runner or a switching layout?

 

All of these factors can influence the number and placement of your switches.

 

Best,

 

George

George:

Good morning, and thank you. 

Mike. 

I agree, Mike CT's reference and suggestions are excellent.

I have 17 switches in a small 9x16 space but most are concentrated in a Service Yard,  including one 4-way and 2 curved Yard entrance/exit switches[084/072] from the inner mainline.

 

I have Ross switches and under the layout-mounted Tortoise motors operated on 12 VDC by manual single stroke on-on toggle throw. Toggles are mounted on a track schematic board and toggle handle position itself is a instant and easy indicator of track switch position. [No walk-around-control of switches as on prior layouts].

 

Upon dismantling a large layout recently I discontinued use of my 7 ASC modules [32 switches, diodes for rectifying VAC power]. For old age simplification, I ceased operating switches from the Cab 1 handheld remote.

Hi Mike!  Hope you're having a great day in the 'burgh.

 

George

 

It would be handy to see a track plan.  Then some advice can be given as to what you should/could modify.  Your instinct is correct.  Overcomplicating a plan can lead to diminishing returns.  Build something you can run and have fun with.

Mike,

   In reality the less switches a layout has the better it actually run.  However

my fairly large layout had 24 swithces on 4 different levels, 10 of those switches were on the 1st 2 levels, some were back to back some were singles.  If you install your switches knowing what engines and rolling stock they will actually accommodate, you will have a lot less trouble in the long run.  Investigate before you engineer your layout, it really does matter which engines and rolling stock

you intend to run, as to which track and switches you pick to enginer your layout with, especially if you intend to run Tin Plate Trains. 

PCRR/Dave

 

 

Thanks to everyone for their great responses.  It seems most of it is an affirmation of what i started to worry about with the complications of having so much in so small a space.   I will attempt to post my layout this evening as i did create it in RR track.

 

I believe i succumbed to the track, and lots of it, bug instead of creating a layout that allows for more continuous running with a variety of scenery to go with it.  I've already got something in my head to create a new layout based on the recommendations, but perhaps if you see my current layout you'll be able to give me other ideas.

You mentioned in your initial post that it is for you and your son. Depending on his age and how much you anticipate him operating it, probably should have some bearing on you final decision.

I use fastrack which I find the switches to be very reliable. With fastrack, you can plug your layout together, then make changes as you go and grow. My layout is on a flat table, with carpet underpad between the track and plywood tabletop. I run the wires under the underpad, and poke them through under the track where needed.

 

This method has some limitations to the realism of the balast and ground cover, however it is flexible and easy to make changes as you learn and grow with the hobby. I paint the underpad a dirt brown, then add grass and dirt when the paint is still wet, to give a groundcover colour. I have attached a few pictures for reference.

 

good luck with your layout design and build. Joe K

 

 

 

It does sound like a lot of switches in that size layout.  However, switches add up fast if you have a switching yard.  Is it possible to show us diagram of your layout?

.....

Dennis

I like the idea of lots of switches.  We have a small/medium layout but has 15 switches, I use every one of them all the time and it makes for an exciting layout.  Yes I do crash trains every now and then but it's all those switches that make it challenging.  

 

I don't know about the RCS or other switches.  Mine are all Realtrax.  Although, they are non-derailing, I couldn't imagine not have the non-derailing feature, are the RCS non derailing?

If you do use a lot of switches, it's a good rule of thumb to minimize their use on the main tracks if possible, and to not have main routes through the curved leg of a switch.

 

I would say, if you want to have some fun and can afford the switches and have the room....lay them down. I put up my Christmas board each year. I like, for guests and for myself, to have more than just an oval or two.

 

It is fun to maneuver the trains from one line to the other and have the options that switching does. This year, I changed the first design and wound up with the one below. I accidently created a really fun board to run trains on, and it has 11 switches. I run 3 trains at a time on the loops. I can do 4 but it is hair raising.

 

Since I ran PW cars exclusively this year, and I used MTH Realtrax switches, the first couple of runs were spent tweaking, but after that (I had to figure out which cars hated switches-there were 4, all w/ shoes.) it was smooth sailing.

 

I even posted a video tread where I could back a train of 8 PW cars all the way around and trough the switches. I think, if you can get them to work, it is tough to have too many switches. They create running fun. Have fun w/ your layout. Picts below.  

 

Greg

 

 

I could have clarified to say, especially with sharper O27 or O31 switches and longer trains, and especially with older postwar or prewar wheelsets which typically have sloppy tolerances. With those combinations you're more likely to have derailments pulling long trains through the curved leg of a switch. I also said "as a rule of thumb", meaning not necessarily a hard and fast rule if you have reasons for doing otherwise.

 

Some folks have had issues with center-rail pickups loosing contact with certain engines and certain combinations of trackwork, so that's another thing to consider with track planning.

 

Of course switches give more variety for train operations, but I prefer to minimize their use. One thing I do not do is have a lot of short spur tracks like I see on many of the track plans for smaller scales.

 Let's see the track plan.  I like designing layouts and looking at this sounds like fun.

Fun with switches and a prototype track plan.

 

 

 

You would be surprised how much scenery you can build into a sea of track and switches (even on a small layout). 

 

When I built our 10x12 layout my head was spinning (with the what if's and how's it gonna work...). What I found was that I was able to design mountains and rocks and lakes into almost any situation.  However, the track plan severly limited the accessory footprint significantly.  The MTH diner just ain't gonna fit, the cool water tower well it's just to wide, the decked out train station I chased down... Not enough room.  The compramise hmmm its another set of rails and platform depot vs the official train station.  I thought the additional sidings or ability for a reversing loop was more important.  It's all about clearances.

 

I had a good mentor that reviewed my mistakes as i was making them and we made the changes based on what the bigger priority was.  I used two of my longest passenger cars as rollers during construction to see where the clearances or oncoming switch turnouts could cause some mayhem.  I should have put masking tape on the two long cars because they became my biggest tool throughout the build.  I didnt even use a tape measure it was all about rolling clearance.

 

The mountains and terrain were suprisingly more flexible than the accessory buildings, I found that you can make some tight spots look huge if its seperated by something you can't see.  The pink foam makes a pretty thin wall. 

 

Ill attach a few pictures of the spaghetti.  If you would (or anybody) would like to see the scenery and mountains in let me know and I'll insert a picture.

 

 

Yeah, we want to see them.  Geez...  That looks cool.  I see you have it wired in blocks for conventional operation.  I would definitely like to see some pics.

It would be interesting to see more of your layout, and it would deserve its own thread. The original poster here is still hoping for track plans to fit his 4.5 x 11 space, I think!

I decided awhile ago that I would use nothing tighter than O42, as I have all RealTrax.  I now would like nothing tighter than O45 (Atlas), but I'm not starting over.  Any future expansions or new layouts will be at least O45.  I started to go all MTH Premier, but I've got too much RailKing and Lionel toy train stuff to give it all up.  I'm storing my MTH Premier rolling stock, and going back to RailKing, but with wider curves.

I may be the only one, but I like it and would also like to see some of the landscaping.

Can you show us your plan idea? 4.5 x 11 is a reasonable space to work with. And tell us what kind of track you are planning to use.

Track plan idea for a 4.5 x 11' layout with minimum switches and enough track for multiple trains. Rough draft only with old-style conventional 3-rail track. Easy construction on flat table. AnyRail file is attached for interested folks to tweak on.