Too Risky to Run???

How about an ALL NEW transformer to solve that problem?

A few TVSs, and low amp fuses, or at least more sensitive circuit breakers between the PW transformer, and the track. That is the "popular vote" on protection on the electronic goodies. You can add a TVS onto the engines if you wanted too.

Not for just a few engines.  Most everything I run just has only a motor or two and lights.. I'm just debating whether it makes sense for me to keep these two units or sell.

hello scottn941.........

The only thing I could say is that to sell all the trains with electronics in them and just buy the NOS or older trains that just has the E-unit in it.  if you still using the 1950's transformer that is..... in other hand, invest in modern transformer such as Z4000.  I have one and its the best investment I made for 3 of my engines loaded with electronics inching to go bad anytime.  I trust old style E-units, Williams simple boards.  How long will it be before the electronics go bad in the 2000 dollars VL Big Boy, only time will tell?

Tiffany

If you're using a ZW to run your trains I'll assume you're using the two throttles with the handles (A and D) for track power. Equip one of these outputs with a fuse holder and put in a quick-blow fuse of the right amperage and use that throttle to run your engines with the modern electronics. Engine goes off the tracks and the fuse blows before anything gets fried. Transient Voltage Suppressors (TVS's per Adristic's post above) can also be wired in but I am not familiar with their installation.

it only makes sense for you to keep them.if i had those engines i would make a long back and fourth track along a wall somewhere just so i could run those locomotives with a more modern transformer.this is more expensive ,but have you ever thought of a overhead layout to run modern trains . this way you would have the best of both worlds.this is the way i solved my problem with o scale 3 rail and o scale 2 rail.

As has already been posted, you can add Transient Voltage Protectors (TVS), which are very inexpensive devices that look very similar to diodes, to protect your electronic engines, and external circuit breakers.

The subject comes up often, and always causes spirited debates.

(I have no first hand knowledge on using TVS, I am only repeating what appears to be the consensus here)

Here is a recent one that went on for four pages.

Towards the end, you will find recommendations on some specific components to purchase, and where to find them, as well as instructions and pictures on how to hook them up. They do not go inside the transformer.

Why limit the enjoyment you get from your trains?  They are toys. Add a TVS or a better external circuit breaker to protect both you trains and your transformer and have fun running your newer trains. 

Totally agree.

Would one of those Lionel "Lock-on Sheds" solve the problem?

Think this is the number for one model 6-34120. 

(Would give you ours but we sold it to a forum members 3 years ago, hoping he pays one day:-)

As I understand it a TVS and a fast-acting circuit breaker perform different tasks.  The TVS protects delicate train circuitry against voltage spikes, and the circuit breaker protects the transformer and wiring against over amperage and a possible fire.  You probably should use both.

Pete

Just playing around, I've run Legacy, PS2 and 3 locos using an old (1950s) Marx power supply.  Nothing pre-war, but I think it was 1952?  None of them ran as nicely as they do on a ZW-L, but they ran, and none seemed the worse for wear.

Scottn941,

   These gentlemen have been giving you the correct fix for protecting all your engines.

The DCS/Legacy runners like myself have been using the 5-7 Amp resettable breakers

and TVS' to safe guard their engines old and new for years now.  Hennings one of our OGR sponsors has some real nice auto reset breakers for minimal money, they work great, also Train Electrics another one of our OGR sponsor, has the original Scott type

resettable breakers, that I use all time to safe guard all my engines & TIU & the Legacy Base.  Go into the DCS section do a search for the Scott Breakers and read the many threads where we here on the OGR, have discussed their proper usage.  No need to sell your nice engines, just learn how to set up correctly to safe guard their running.

PCRR/Dave 

Click on the picture to enlarge and note the Scott resettable Breaker set with the white strip on top, between the old ZW & newer Z4K transformer.  Sense I run DCS I use the built in TVS protection it provides, if you do not run DCS you can purchase the in expensive TVS's also and place them on your transformers, you can read about TVS protection in the DCS section also.

I also run everything with my P/w ZW and 1033. the 1033 does not make enough voltage for billowing smoke, but works well running trains. the breakers built into the transformers, even the brand new modern ones are there only to protect the transformer, not the items being powered. as stated above, fast acting breakers or fuses and TVS's are the way to go if you want to protect your modern electronics.

If the fuses are blowing, they are protecting the wiring and transformer. The damage to the electronics is occurring whether the fuses blow or not, and it is cumulative.

Gentlemen,

   Rob makes a great point here, electrical damage is definitely cumulative, the object is to set up your layout to run safely & correctly with as few problems to set off your breakers as possible, remember the breakers and fuses are for the few emergencies

you may have when your layout is constructed correctly, they should never really be used as a repetitive operation on your layout.  Construct correctly and you should have little need to repeatedly use your Breakers or TVS, no matter which transformers you are using, new or old.

PCRR/Dave

I run DCS and TMCC with my two old ZWs with no problems. I simply have fuses in the wires and keep a supply of spares.

.....

Dennis

What is everyone's fascination/infatuation with fuses? Is there something romantic about stocking spares or depending on consumable resources?

Fast acting fuses and fancy circuit breakers are all fine and dandy; but as i understand it they do not protect the modern electronics in our locomotives, but merely protect the transformer. A TVS  (less than $.40 each) is what is needed to to protect the electronics in modern locomotives. Ideally placed between the pick up roller and ground (common) inside a loco, but can be placed between the hot and common on a transformer. Pretty simple and inexpensive. Have been running TMCC for over 15 years using 4 Lionel TVS equipped LW's in separate power districts with more than my share of derailments and have yet to destroy a board. - Should i knock on wood?

Perhaps Gunrunner or one of our electronic gurus should respond here.

jackson

LOL, didn't this discussion just happen a couple of days ago?

Of course it did. 

And people are still erroneously relying on breakers & fuses to protect something they were not designed to do, and don't do. And on top of that using expendable fuses, when breakers provide the same benefit with only the one upfront cost.

I've never considered this before. So I should shelve all my old transformers and buy new ones?

I did pick up a Right-of-Way Industries power pack. It has circuit breakers on the front panel for each throttle.

Would they be considered fast acting enough to protect the circuit boards? I ask this because the unit was made before all this electronic wizardry.

The point that many are missing, repeatedly, or just not understanding, is that there are no breakers fast enough to protect the engines' electronics, as that is not their function!

Please do not confuse current with voltage.

For the electronics, you want Transient Voltage Suppression.

quote:

I've never considered this before. So I should shelve all my old transformers and buy new ones?

Only if they are defective, or you have money to burn.

Otherwise you can add supplemental external protection to your old transformers. Namely Transient Voltage Suppressors, and perhaps additional circuit breakers.
The TVS are less than one dollar each, plus shipping.

Here is a link provided by GunrunnerJohn from the thread I mentioned above.

A lot of good info here. The TVS protects the boards in the engine. I just ordered 25 more and received them 2 days later. I use 5-7 amp fast acting fuses for older transformers. Never had an issue. If your older transformers are good just use the fuses and TVS. Even if you buy a new transformer, you will/should still  get the TVS to protect the electonics. Just my two-cents after reading countless threads on the subject and recommendations from the electronic gurus.

Bob

"Now one unit (the real thing being a childhood favorite) is a Lionel "Conventional" 6-28247 Rio Grande SD40T-2"

    If I really liked these locos I'd do what it takes to make them compatible with my fleet. Maybe strip out the fancy electronics and wire the motors to an E-unit? You could keep the parts to return the locos to factory specs but I don't worry about re-sale value on things I expect to keep till I die :> .......DaveB 

I have been running trains since the 60's and the new scale 3 rail trains since day one. I have also upgraded my transformers along the way. I now use a MTH Z-4000. 

I have never had a failure of any of my electronic trains. No need for fuses, tvs or the like. 

The best thing you can do is have a good modern transformer, good sturdy wire of 14, 16 gauge, good connections. 

I see no reason to use 60 year old transformers no matter how well they have been taken care of.  Would you use a 60 year old toaster in your kitchen? I don't think so. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with using a 60 year old transformer as long as it has been maintained. The old ZW's were pretty rugged and are relatively simple, and can be maintained easily (which a 60 year old toaster cannot be).

Modern transformers can be wonderful, the z4000 and the new ZW are pretty amazing units, and if you have the money for them, they are decent options, but if you happen to have ZW's and like them,no reason not to use them.

Yes, you can run modern engines on an old transformer and not have any problems, if the trackwork is good, if cars don't derail and you are careful not to work on a hot section of track with let's say an engine sitting at idle and so forth, you could probably run forever and not have problems....but trains do derail, people drop a metal item across the tracks, the engine itself may generate a short because a hot wire hits ground, or another engine shorts and takes another one with it, stuff happens. Even an old PW engine running on the layout that has a commutator issue or something could foul up another engine potentially. 

Given the cost of fast blow circuit breakers (I agree with someone else, fuses aren't worth it), plus the low cost of tvr's, while you can get away without having these on your old transformer, it is cheap enough that it is kind of like why wouldn't you do it? It isn't sophisticated wiring (if i can understand it, anyone can). 

And yeah, if all you run is older postwar with a light, or the mechanical whistle units or the e-unit, probably wouldn't make a big difference, those units can survive a lot, but I would argue a fast blow circuit breaker and a tvr (more likely the former) might help protect that old engine, again as someone else said, damage can be cumulative, and the coils on an e-unit or the coils of wire on the armature of an open frame motor can degrade if shorts happen and the old break takes forever, so having them certainly isn't going to hurt the older units, may keep them around longer, too. 

But that's just you.  You are aware, of course, that there's a difference between a toy train transformer and a toaster, right?

You might be amused to learn that the guys who recondition and restore old hand-wired tube guitar amps (because they sound so much better and are so much more rugged and reliable than new pc board ones) are referred to as "toaster techs."

Pete

Would I use a 60 year old toaster if it worked and was checked out electronically why not if all I wanted was to toast a piece or two of toast. I love old things that still work fine that's why I use my post war ZW's and  Post war engines and even my prewar trains they work so why not use them. Theres nothing wrong with using vintage items. I have TVS every where I have a lead going to track and even in some engines I haven't had a problem yet not saying I won't but you can't say you won't either with a brand new transformer either they all can have something happen. 

I love this analogy, as I see no reason not to use 60 year old transformers(I used a 1949 ZW for a month on the Christmas layout this year) and my toaster, the next oldest appliance in use in the house, is about 60 years old.

I have 25 DCS locos.  Power is from one Z4000, 2 postwar ZWs, and one KW.  The latter are fine for use with the locos; haven't had a problem in the 13 years I've had DCS.  But, I du use breakers external to the ZWs & KW.  You don't need new transformers or to see the electronic ones.  Just get fuses or breakers; the latter are cheaper in the long run.

I've been using a 1949 ZW to power my track layout elusively with no fancy-schmancy breakers.  Since I got TMCC in 1996, I've never blown a board.

Jon  

KJ1,

   You have been very lucky so far with not damaging any of your TMCC engines, however most people especially those with smaller children do not have your kind of luck.  Better to be safe than need to repair expensive engines, I recommend the 7-10 amp breakers and TVS, I run both DCS & Legacy and believe in safe guarding my layout.

PCRR/Dave

Jon, consider yourself lucky.  The breakers in the ZWs are not reliable, even to protect the ZW.  You could be flirting with a house fire.  But it's your layout and your call.

quote:

I see no reason to use 60 year old transformers no matter how well they have been taken care of.  Would you use a 60 year old toaster in your kitchen? I don't think so. 

As long as the toaster was in nice shape, and worked properly, I certainly would use it.

It would probably work better than the one I have right now.

quote:

Jon, consider yourself lucky.  The breakers in the ZWs are not reliable, even to protect the ZW.  You could be flirting with a house fire.  But it's your layout and your call.

I agree that supplemental, external circuit breakers should be used with Lionel's larger transformers, especially the ZW, and have often made that recommendation.

I don't think that I would go as far as worrying about a house fire, but you never know.

When I have a ZW on my bench, I always perform the test specified by Lionel. The internal breaker is designed to trip with a 30 amp load after 11-40 seconds. 

 I've witnessed more mini fires in solid state electronics, and "safer modern items" than I'd like to think about. God forbid one melts an air hole into itself. Sell Me the toaster, I'll put it next to the chrome GE one in the kitchen serving breakfast in this house since before I was born.

I like breakers, I normally will chose one for something this likely to get cooked. In the long run its a time, and cost saver, but upfront, fuses often offer lower cost, and immediate availability. I still have a few big boxes of glass ac/dc bus fuses bought for pennies at yard sales over the years.(you know how many people bought these only to find them a wee bit longer then automotive fuses? Not useless for me!   

The TVS is the real protection for the components on the board. 

Inspect, test, inspect, test again, inspect, use.